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Eliza10
Guest
Sure. He is obviously manipulating, if not the worseLOL, that sounds like reverse manipulation.
JR![]()
Sure. He is obviously manipulating, if not the worseLOL, that sounds like reverse manipulation.
JR![]()
I always appreciate the advice JR! I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I’m actually in the Archdiocese of Toronto - although I hope my Bishop would take a similar stance with regards to the placement of the Tabernacle.You mentioned Archbishop Chaput, so I must assume that you are in the Archdiocese of Denver. Having personally known Charlie Chaput for more than30 years several things come to mind.
Somewhere in this thread the OP mentioned Archbishop Chaput. I was responding to that. I just happen to know Charlie Chaput since my early days at the university as a theology student. He was very young and taught history at the college.I always appreciate the advice JR! I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I’m actually in the Archdiocese of Toronto - although I hope my Bishop would take a similar stance with regards to the placement of the Tabernacle.
No it doesn’t. You say “consecration or reception” which is it? They are not the same thing. 1324 says that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the summit of our faith. That sacrament requires consecration. Nowhere, in either paragraph, does it say that reception is the summit of our faith. The consecrated Eucharist is the summit of our faith, whether upon the altar, or the consecrated Eucharist inside the tabernacle.Some of you have already addressed Psalter’s comments. Thanks.
I wanted to bring these Cathechism quotes forward:
1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."
2031 The moral life is spiritual worship. We “present [our] bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God,” within the Body of Christ that we form and in communion with the offering of his Eucharist. In the liturgy and the celebration of the sacraments, prayer and teaching are conjoined with the grace of Christ to enlighten and nourish Christian activity. As does the whole of the Christian life, the moral life finds its source and summit in the Eucharistic sacrifice.
These quotes pretty clearly demonstrate that the consecration or reception of Holy Communion represents the “source and summit” of our faith,
Any reference on that?He’s a Capuchin Franciscan. The Franciscans introduced the tabernacle in the center of the Church. Prior to St. Francis it was always on the side altar.
The Eucharist is only a “sacrifice-sacrament” (in Pope John Paul II’s words) when it is being confected and offered upon the altar; as Pope Pius XII said in at a summit on the liturgical movement:OK, I agree the Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest form of worship, but it is also our belief that the Eucharist itself is a perpetual sacrifice even outside of Mass.
I quote Pope Pius XII in an address to people regarding the liturgical movement:my pastor and I have discussed this at length. He is in total agreement with the previous post about separating the altar of sacrifice from the altar of repose (tabernacle).
The Eucharist, formally, is the confected sacrament on the altar; when we receive it, it is as Holy Communion. The Eucharist is a sacrament before anyone receives it; in this way, it is distinct from all other sacraments, and this is because in this sacrament is the Author of graces Himself.Is “the Eucharist” sitting in the tabernacle the source and summit of our worship? Or is it the reception of the Eucharist that is the source and summit, or is it the *consecration/sacrifice *of the Eucharsit the source and summit?
All of this is true. For some reason that I don’t know it fell out of use by the Middle Ages. Francis and the Friars Minor brought it back for their community. It gradually became popular for the entire Church in the form of the Gregorian mass.Any reference on that?
Certainly by the 800’s, the Blessed Sacrament was kept within the monastic church itself, close to the altar. In fact, we have a poem from the year 802, telling of a pyx containing the Sacred Species reserved on the high altar of the abbey church at Lindisfarne in England. …
It is interesting to note that one of the first unmistakable references to reserving the Blessed Sacrament is found in a life of St. Basil (who died in 379). Basil is said to have divided the Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated Mass in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar. Source]
Thanks for the advice - I wish it was possible for me to find another church, but mine is one of two in a city of 130,000 people. And the other church has already made these moves…replacing the crucifix with the risen Christ, tabernacle off to the side, etc. That said, I really feel like I should stay anyways and try to keep the parish the way it is. Ultimately, it’s up to my priest, but thanks for the encouragement everyone.Ask him what is the central focus of the enterior of a Catholic Church. If he says Jesus Christ (and hope he does or I wouldn’t give him the time of day), then ask him: Shouldn’t the central focal point upon entering a Catholic church be Jesus himself in the Tabernacle? If he disagrees with you, he’s one of the liberals who continue to infest our religion. In that case I would get a group to protest this action, but don’t get your hopes up. A final suggestion, is find another church if you can’t cope with the situation. Until the Vatican and our Pope stops these liberals, we are at their mercy. Pray the Rosary
I don’t think so. I think what he is doing sounds bad. I think many of us here think it sounds bad, too. Many of us have had it done all over our local parishes against the wishes of the people. This imposing of the elitist will on the people against their most deeply held beliefs is very divisive to the Body of Christ. Had it been put to a vote, this move would rarely if ever have been seen.Let’s not get carried away here by thinking or suggesting that this pastor is doing a bad thing. That would be an unfair assessment.
In fact its a major issue to a lot of people. And diosean insiders in certain dioceses like to minimize these concerns, most patronizingly. Its not right, and its not Christian.…Whether it’s on a side wall or the center is not really an issue…
I’m thinking of bad as in against Church law or sinful. The law allows for this as long as it’s done properly. As to putting it to a vote that is a point of contention within the Catholic Church.I don’t think so. I think what he is doing sounds bad. I think many of us here think it sounds bad, too. Many of us have had it done all over our local parishes against the wishes of the people. This imposing of the elitist will on the people against their most deeply held beliefs is very divisive to the Body of Christ. Had it been put to a vote, this move would rarely if ever have been seen.
I agree with you that it is a major issue to many people. It is not a major issue to the Church as long as it’s done within the rules. I too have seen arrangements that are less than pleasing to the eye, but are consistent with the rules. We live with it.In fact its a major issue to a lot of people. And diosean insiders in certain dioceses like to minimize these concerns, most patronizingly. Its not right, and its not Christian.
And, 2031 clearly states “Eucharistic Sacrifice”No it doesn’t. You say “consecration or reception” which is it? They are not the same thing. 1324 says that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the summit of our faith. That sacrament requires consecration. Nowhere, in either paragraph, does it say that reception is the summit of our faith. The consecrated Eucharist is the summit of our faith, whether upon the altar, or the consecrated Eucharist inside the tabernacle.
And in doing so, actually solidify mine, thanks.I rest my case.
The Eucharistic sacrifice is participated in even without receiving Holy Communion (except for the priest who is offering it who sins by not consuming it).2031 clearly states “Eucharistic Sacrifice”
Care to explain?[You] actually solidify [my case], thanks.
Well, my postion is that it was the consecration and reception that was the “source and summit”…so according to your position I am at least half right.The Eucharistic sacrifice is participated in even without receiving Holy Communion (except for the priest who is offering it who sins by not consuming it).
Care to explain?
I am convinced that the sources I was quoting hold that it is the offering of the Eucharist (that is, the “Eucharistic sacrifice”) that is the source and summit, not our reception of it. I’m not seeing what you’re seeing…
I wasn’t defending the Eucharist in the tabernacle, I was defending the Eucharist apart from our reception of it. The Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit: the moments of consecration and offering of the Eucharist to God the Father. Everything else flows from that and finds its consummation in that.Well, my postion is that it was the consecration and reception that was the “source and summit”… so according to your position I am at least half right. Reading the assorted quotes I do not see that the Eucharist reposed in the tabernacle itself as the “source and summit”, which was the origin of the offshoot discussion.
I agree. I have now seperated the sacrifice from the reception in my opinion. And we are in agreement on the tabernacle.I wasn’t defending the Eucharist in the tabernacle, I was defending the Eucharist apart from our reception of it. The Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit: the moments of consecration and offering of the Eucharist to God the Father. Everything else flows from that and finds its consummation in that.
Receiving Holy Communion is not the source and summit, it is a participation in that source and summit. Praying before the tabernacle is not the source and summit, it is a participation in it. The very act of reposing the Eucharist in the tabernacle is not the source and summit either, since it very clearly directly flows from the Eucharistic sacrifice. The Eucharistic Sacrifice can take place without a tabernacle, and without you or me.