Can my Pastor do this?

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LOL, that sounds like reverse manipulation.

JR 🙂
Sure. He is obviously manipulating, if not the worse :eek:, and this is giving him back the same, but in a charitable way - stubbornly insisting on believing he had only the best of motives, in line with his fidelity to his high calling. And it also gives Matt and others the opportunity to express their opinion (which has certainly not been solicited, as it should have been). Its non-confrontatinal, friendly-spirited justice.
 
You mentioned Archbishop Chaput, so I must assume that you are in the Archdiocese of Denver. Having personally known Charlie Chaput for more than30 years several things come to mind.
I always appreciate the advice JR! I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I’m actually in the Archdiocese of Toronto - although I hope my Bishop would take a similar stance with regards to the placement of the Tabernacle.
 
I always appreciate the advice JR! I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I’m actually in the Archdiocese of Toronto - although I hope my Bishop would take a similar stance with regards to the placement of the Tabernacle.
Somewhere in this thread the OP mentioned Archbishop Chaput. I was responding to that. I just happen to know Charlie Chaput since my early days at the university as a theology student. He was very young and taught history at the college.

My dealings with him were many and he has always been a very humble and very intelligent man. When he came around to the residence. there was always a group of students around him. We just enjoyed being with him. He rediated sanctity. He was not much older than we at the time, maybe early thirties as we were in our early to mid 20s.

He is someone whose thoughts and ideas you can take to the bank.

I don’t know much about the bishops in Canada as I have never had any kind of intercourse with them. But if I say anything that is useful, feel free to use it.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Ask him what is the central focus of the enterior of a Catholic Church. If he says Jesus Christ (and hope he does or I wouldn’t give him the time of day), then ask him: Shouldn’t the central focal point upon entering a Catholic church be Jesus himself in the Tabernacle? If he disagrees with you, he’s one of the liberals who continue to infest our religion. In that case I would get a group to protest this action, but don’t get your hopes up. A final suggestion, is find another church if you can’t cope with the situation. Until the Vatican and our Pope stops these liberals, we are at their mercy. Pray the Rosary
 
Some of you have already addressed Psalter’s comments. Thanks.

I wanted to bring these Cathechism quotes forward:

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."

2031 The moral life is spiritual worship. We “present [our] bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God,” within the Body of Christ that we form and in communion with the offering of his Eucharist. In the liturgy and the celebration of the sacraments, prayer and teaching are conjoined with the grace of Christ to enlighten and nourish Christian activity. As does the whole of the Christian life, the moral life finds its source and summit in the Eucharistic sacrifice.

These quotes pretty clearly demonstrate that the consecration or reception of Holy Communion represents the “source and summit” of our faith,
No it doesn’t. You say “consecration or reception” which is it? They are not the same thing. 1324 says that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the summit of our faith. That sacrament requires consecration. Nowhere, in either paragraph, does it say that reception is the summit of our faith. The consecrated Eucharist is the summit of our faith, whether upon the altar, or the consecrated Eucharist inside the tabernacle.
 
He’s a Capuchin Franciscan. The Franciscans introduced the tabernacle in the center of the Church. Prior to St. Francis it was always on the side altar.
Any reference on that?

Certainly by the 800’s, the Blessed Sacrament was kept within the monastic church itself, close to the altar. In fact, we have a poem from the year 802, telling of a pyx containing the Sacred Species reserved on the high altar of the abbey church at Lindisfarne in England. …

It is interesting to note that one of the first unmistakable references to reserving the Blessed Sacrament is found in a life of St. Basil (who died in 379). Basil is said to have divided the Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated Mass in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar. Source]
 
OK, I agree the Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest form of worship, but it is also our belief that the Eucharist itself is a perpetual sacrifice even outside of Mass.
The Eucharist is only a “sacrifice-sacrament” (in Pope John Paul II’s words) when it is being confected and offered upon the altar; as Pope Pius XII said in at a summit on the liturgical movement:
The altar is more important than the tabernacle, because on it is offered the Lord’s sacrifice. No doubt the tabernacle holds the Sacramentum permanens; but it is not an altare permanens, for the Lord offers Himself in sacrifice only on the altar during the celebration of Holy Mass, not after or outside the Mass. In the tabernacle, on the other hand, He is present as long as the consecrated species last, yet is not making a permanent sacrificial offering.
 
Technically, a priest can do some changes in the parish he is assigned, but with respect to the parish he should tell the church council and the people about his plans before making any move.

I believe that the Tabernalce should be always in the center of the Church just like in Traditional Catholic churches, historically and biblically, the tabernalce and the Holy of Holies was in the center of the Hebrew camp, and when they worshipped they face the tabernacle.

The Holy Eucharist is the center of our lives, and it must be spiritually and physically. Anyone who does not believe in this does not have the Spirit of God in his or her heart. Moving the tabernacle from the center to the side is like setting aside Christ from a prominent place of worship to an inappropriate and demeaning place which is on the side.

May the Lord God bless and keep you.

Frater
 
my pastor and I have discussed this at length. He is in total agreement with the previous post about separating the altar of sacrifice from the altar of repose (tabernacle).
I quote Pope Pius XII in an address to people regarding the liturgical movement:
The Council of Trent has explained the disposition of soul required concerning the Blessed Sacrament: “If anyone says that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist with the worship of latria, including the external worship, and that the sacrament, therefore, is not to be honored with extraordinary festive celebrations nor solemnly carried from place to place in processions according to the praiseworthy universal rite and custom of the holy Church: or that the sacrament is not to be publicly exposed for the people’s adoration, and that those who adore it are idolators: let him be anathema.”

“If anyone says that it is not permissible to keep the sacred Eucharist in a holy place, but that it must necessarily be distributed immediately after the consecration to those who are present; or that it is not permissible to carry the Eucharist respectfully to the sick: let him be anathema.”

He who clings wholeheartedly to this teaching has no thought of formulating objections against the presence of the tabernacle on the altar.

In the instruction of the Holy Office, De arte sacra, of June 30, 1952, the Holy See insists, among other things, on this point: “This Supreme Sacred Congregation strictly commands that the prescriptions of Canons 1268, #2, and 1269 #1 [of the 1917 Code of Canon Law] be faithfully observed: ‘The Most Blessed Eucharist should be kept in the most distinguished and honorable place in the church, and hence as a rule at the main altar unless some other be considered more convenient and suitable for veneration and worship due to so great a Sacrament … The Most Blessed Sacrament must be kept in an immovable tabernacle set in the middle of the altar.’”

There is question, not so much of the material presence of the tabernacle on the altar, as of a tendency to which We would like to call your attention, that of a lessening of esteem for the presence and action of Christ in the tabernacle. The sacrifice of the altar is held sufficient, and the importance of Him who accomplishes it is reduced.

Yet the person of our Lord must hold the central place in worship, for it is His person that unifies the relations of the altar and the tabernacle and gives them their meaning.

It is through the sacrifice of the altar, first of all, that the Lord becomes present in the Eucharist, and He is in the tabernacle only as a memoria sacrificii et passionis suae (memorial of his sacrifice and passion).

To separate tabernacle from altar is to separate two things which by their origin and their nature should remain united.
It is indeed peculiar to me that only 21 years later, in 1967, the Sacred Congregation of Rites said that “on the grounds of the sign value, it is more in keeping with the nature of the celebration that, through reservation of the sacrament in the tabernacle, Christ not be present Eucharistically from the beginning on the altar where Mass is celebrated. That presence is the effect of the consecration and should appear as such.” (Eucharisticum Mysterium, n. 55)

I think we will eventually see a return to the former and long-standing tradition of placing the tabernacle in the center of the back of the altar, or directly behind the altar.
Is “the Eucharist” sitting in the tabernacle the source and summit of our worship? Or is it the reception of the Eucharist that is the source and summit, or is it the *consecration/sacrifice *of the Eucharsit the source and summit?
The Eucharist, formally, is the confected sacrament on the altar; when we receive it, it is as Holy Communion. The Eucharist is a sacrament before anyone receives it; in this way, it is distinct from all other sacraments, and this is because in this sacrament is the Author of graces Himself.

Is our reception of the Eucharist greater than the Eucharist itself? I don’t think the answer is yes. The Eucharist itself is the source and summit of our worship and faith, which is why our participation in it (as Holy Communion) is never the apex of our spiritual lives, but the way through which our lives reach their apex. We can receive graces from the Eucharist without receiving it sacramentally.

This view is supported by several Popes, including Leo XIII (Mirae Caritatis of 1902) and Pope Pius XII (“Above all, try with your constant zeal to have all the faithful attend the Eucharistic sacrifice from which they may obtain abundant and salutary fruit; and carefully instruct them in all the legitimate ways we have described above so that they may devoutly participate in it. The Mass is the chief act of divine worship; it should also be the source and center of Christian piety.” Mediator Dei, n. 201). Vatican II in Lumen Gentium n. 11 said “Taking part in the Eucharistic sacrifice, which is the fount and apex of the whole Christian life, they offer the Divine Victim to God, and offer themselves along with It.”

Eucharisticum Mysterium echoes the sentiment: “Hence the Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and the summit of all the Church’s worship and of the entire Christian life. The faithful participate more fully in this sacrifice of thanksgiving, expiation, petition, and praise not only when they wholeheartedly offer the sacred victim and in him offer themselves to the Father with the priest, but also when they receive the same victim in the sacrament.” (n. 3e)

I rest my case.
 
Let’s not get carried away here by thinking or suggesting that this pastor is doing a bad thing. That would be an unfair assessment. All the information that we have to go on is from the OP. Nothing of what the OP has said is illegal.

The fact is that you are allowed to move the tabernacle to a side wall. The rule is very simple. You must set it up so that it is in a dignified space and very obvious. You can’t hide it or set it up in some shabby manner.

Whether it’s on a side wall or the center is not really an issue. Looking at the drawing that the OP submitted of their parish church, it looks like it would look off balance. That being the case, it would not look elegant and attractive, which it must always look. I’m only speaking from what I have seen in the drawing. I’ve never been inside this church.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Any reference on that?

Certainly by the 800’s, the Blessed Sacrament was kept within the monastic church itself, close to the altar. In fact, we have a poem from the year 802, telling of a pyx containing the Sacred Species reserved on the high altar of the abbey church at Lindisfarne in England. …

It is interesting to note that one of the first unmistakable references to reserving the Blessed Sacrament is found in a life of St. Basil (who died in 379). Basil is said to have divided the Eucharistic Bread into three parts when he celebrated Mass in the monastery. One part he consumed, the second part he gave to the monks, and the third he placed in a golden dove suspended over the altar. Source]
All of this is true. For some reason that I don’t know it fell out of use by the Middle Ages. Francis and the Friars Minor brought it back for their community. It gradually became popular for the entire Church in the form of the Gregorian mass.

What I did not know, which I recently heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel speak about in a lecture that I attended was that the location of the tabernacle had been changed by the Middle Ages to the side and that Francis of Assisi had directed his Friar priests to put it in the center.

According to Fr. Groeschel there were two reasons for this. 1) The friars did not have separate spaces as monks did: chapter hall, chapel and church. They only had one space that served as chapel and church; 2) Francis wanted the tabernacle, crucifix and altar together because in his understanding of theology and scripture they were the three points of convergence in the Eucharist, which actually makes sense.

Hope this helps.

JR 🙂
 
Ask him what is the central focus of the enterior of a Catholic Church. If he says Jesus Christ (and hope he does or I wouldn’t give him the time of day), then ask him: Shouldn’t the central focal point upon entering a Catholic church be Jesus himself in the Tabernacle? If he disagrees with you, he’s one of the liberals who continue to infest our religion. In that case I would get a group to protest this action, but don’t get your hopes up. A final suggestion, is find another church if you can’t cope with the situation. Until the Vatican and our Pope stops these liberals, we are at their mercy. Pray the Rosary
Thanks for the advice - I wish it was possible for me to find another church, but mine is one of two in a city of 130,000 people. And the other church has already made these moves…replacing the crucifix with the risen Christ, tabernacle off to the side, etc. That said, I really feel like I should stay anyways and try to keep the parish the way it is. Ultimately, it’s up to my priest, but thanks for the encouragement everyone.
 
Let’s not get carried away here by thinking or suggesting that this pastor is doing a bad thing. That would be an unfair assessment.
I don’t think so. I think what he is doing sounds bad. I think many of us here think it sounds bad, too. Many of us have had it done all over our local parishes against the wishes of the people. This imposing of the elitist will on the people against their most deeply held beliefs is very divisive to the Body of Christ. Had it been put to a vote, this move would rarely if ever have been seen.
…Whether it’s on a side wall or the center is not really an issue…
In fact its a major issue to a lot of people. And diosean insiders in certain dioceses like to minimize these concerns, most patronizingly. Its not right, and its not Christian.
 
I don’t think so. I think what he is doing sounds bad. I think many of us here think it sounds bad, too. Many of us have had it done all over our local parishes against the wishes of the people. This imposing of the elitist will on the people against their most deeply held beliefs is very divisive to the Body of Christ. Had it been put to a vote, this move would rarely if ever have been seen.
I’m thinking of bad as in against Church law or sinful. The law allows for this as long as it’s done properly. As to putting it to a vote that is a point of contention within the Catholic Church.

When parish councils were first created the idea was that they would be advisory, not administrative. The administrative decisions of a parish always falls to the pastor and above him to the local bishop. One of the differences between Catholic parishes and Protestant parishes is the hierarchical structure that we preserve. Lay people can certainly be consulted, but we have no authority in the Church. To have authority you have to be a cleric or a major religious superior. Even if it had been put to a vote, the pastor has the final word, unless the bishop overrules him. To the best of my knowledge the only circumstance where a bishop has no voice or vote is in chapel that belongs to a religious community. But being that this is a parish and the OP has not mentioned that it is the property of a religious community, this would not apply. That leaves the decision to the bishop and pastor.
In fact its a major issue to a lot of people. And diosean insiders in certain dioceses like to minimize these concerns, most patronizingly. Its not right, and its not Christian.
I agree with you that it is a major issue to many people. It is not a major issue to the Church as long as it’s done within the rules. I too have seen arrangements that are less than pleasing to the eye, but are consistent with the rules. We live with it.

I know a parish that is staffed by a religious order of mendicants. Their rule is very clear about the way the Liturgy of the Hours must be celibrated. The tabernacle is off to the right side, if you’re looking at the sanctuary in what would have once been a side chapel. It’s very open and you can clearly see it when you enter. But the space also serves as the choir for the religious, so there are seats facing each other. It is not attractive at all. To me it looks cluttered. But the it complies with the rules. It is in a prominent place that is obvious and is also reverently enshrined.

The parishioners asked why the change when the religious arrived. The response from the chancery was that they had to accept this or the parish would be closed because the diocese did not have secular priests to staff it and the religious would only take up the parish as long as they could continue to live their religious life as customary to their order.

Nothing illegal or immoral was done to the church, but it does not look beautiful to me. I don’t know what others think. Thank God it’s not my parish church, because I personally lean toward the more simple lines in the modern or the truly classic. I don’t like the hybrids too much. But that’s my taste.

The point is that even when things are bothersome to us, if they are legal and done with reverence as defined by the Church, sometimes we just have to live with it.

In this case, I hope that they use a good architect to make it all work well.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
No it doesn’t. You say “consecration or reception” which is it? They are not the same thing. 1324 says that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the summit of our faith. That sacrament requires consecration. Nowhere, in either paragraph, does it say that reception is the summit of our faith. The consecrated Eucharist is the summit of our faith, whether upon the altar, or the consecrated Eucharist inside the tabernacle.
And, 2031 clearly states “Eucharistic Sacrifice” 🤷
 
2031 clearly states “Eucharistic Sacrifice”
The Eucharistic sacrifice is participated in even without receiving Holy Communion (except for the priest who is offering it who sins by not consuming it).
[You] actually solidify [my case], thanks.
Care to explain? :confused:

I was pretty sure the sources I was quoting held that it is the offering of the Eucharist (that is, the “Eucharistic sacrifice”) that is the source and summit, not our reception of it. I’m not seeing what you’re seeing…
 
The Eucharistic sacrifice is participated in even without receiving Holy Communion (except for the priest who is offering it who sins by not consuming it).

Care to explain? :confused:

I am convinced that the sources I was quoting hold that it is the offering of the Eucharist (that is, the “Eucharistic sacrifice”) that is the source and summit, not our reception of it. I’m not seeing what you’re seeing…
Well, my postion is that it was the consecration and reception that was the “source and summit”…so according to your position I am at least half right.

Reading the assorted quotes I do not see that the Eucharist reposed in the tabernacle itself as the “source and summit”, which was the origin of the offshoot discussion.

I am in no way demeaning the Eucharist in the tabernacle. But, I do not see it (based on the documents) as being the source and summit in itself. Therefore I would defer to the Church position that the tabernacle can be placed in a location other than the main altar. Within the guidelines, of course.
 
Well, my postion is that it was the consecration and reception that was the “source and summit”… so according to your position I am at least half right. Reading the assorted quotes I do not see that the Eucharist reposed in the tabernacle itself as the “source and summit”, which was the origin of the offshoot discussion.
I wasn’t defending the Eucharist in the tabernacle, I was defending the Eucharist apart from our reception of it. The Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit: the moments of consecration and offering of the Eucharist to God the Father. Everything else flows from that and finds its consummation in that.

Receiving Holy Communion is not the source and summit, it is a participation in that source and summit. Praying before the tabernacle is not the source and summit, it is a participation in it. The very act of reposing the Eucharist in the tabernacle is not the source and summit either, since it very clearly directly flows from the Eucharistic sacrifice. The Eucharistic Sacrifice can take place without a tabernacle, and without you or me.
 
I wasn’t defending the Eucharist in the tabernacle, I was defending the Eucharist apart from our reception of it. The Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit: the moments of consecration and offering of the Eucharist to God the Father. Everything else flows from that and finds its consummation in that.

Receiving Holy Communion is not the source and summit, it is a participation in that source and summit. Praying before the tabernacle is not the source and summit, it is a participation in it. The very act of reposing the Eucharist in the tabernacle is not the source and summit either, since it very clearly directly flows from the Eucharistic sacrifice. The Eucharistic Sacrifice can take place without a tabernacle, and without you or me.
I agree. I have now seperated the sacrifice from the reception in my opinion. And we are in agreement on the tabernacle.

Thanks.
 
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