Can NCC's be heretics and seperated brethren at the same time?

[ALLFORHIM]

Actually, he does … and it does – which of course brings us right to the heart of the “heretics and seperated brethren at the same time” question.

As you will see from reading the article at the link I referenced earlier (I’m guessing you haven’t yet, judging from your response), you will see that the Bible teaches the following:

the “episkopoi” of the church at Ephesus have guardianship over “the flock” of God’s people.

to be a “pastor” (shepherd, overseer, elder) is also to be an “ambassador” for Christ (c.f. 2 Cor. 5:18ff).

“And one does not take the honor upon himself, but he is called by God, just as Aaron was.” (Heb. 5:4)

The dictionary defines the word “ambassador” to mean, an “authorized messenger or representative” - thus, an ambassador must be sent. In fact, the word “apostle” is Greek for “sent one.” To this we can add the words of St. Paul, who says that preachers must be “sent.” (Rom. 10:15)

Now, what does “to be sent” mean, except that someone in authority over you has conferred the privilege and authority upon you?

“…these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.” (John 5:36)

“…As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” (John 20:21)

Scripture shows that only the Apostles are “entrusted” with the care of the Gospel message

Scripture also shows that only the Apostles refer to the Gospel message as their own personal possession. The Apostles possess the Gospel message precisely because it was “entrusted” to them, i.e., given to them, and not taken by them on their own initiative.

The question we must ask now is this: after the original 12 Apostles, how is this Gospel and apostolic authority passed on? Is it passed on at all? After the death of the last Apostle, can any individual who feels “called” by God simply take up the mission and message and carry on where the Apostles left off? The answer to this question is plainly “no,” as we have already begun to see from Scripture. The mission and the message can only be passed on by someone who first possessed it.

The first generation of Apostles takes care to not only pass along the message, but also creates new pastors with apostolic authority to continue transmitting the message

the Scriptures are a tool for “teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The “man of God” has this authority. But, who is the “man of God?” Your minister may wish to claim this title for himself as well, but a short survey of Scripture’s use of the title will reveal that this, too, is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself

Contrary to the opinion that the “man of God” can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the “man of God” is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).

“If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true; there is another who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears to me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.” (John 5:31-36)

If even Jesus submitted to this proof-test, how can any mere man exempt himself from this same test, unless he wishes to say he is greater than even Jesus?

Hi,
Thank you for the info. I am not going to respond because this is not what the thread is about. Obviously you know I disagree Thanks though

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi All,

This question popped into my mind a couple of days ago. I have been pondering it and so I ask:

How can I be a seperated brethren of yours and be heretical at the same time?

Maybe I just dont see the difference between the two:shrug:

I am a believer in Christ and follow His ways to the best of my ability. On the flip side–I do not believe in most catholic theology-

Sooo–what exactly am I —a heretic or seperated brethren?

Thanks

the reason you dont agree with most catholic theology is because you have been tought by strange voices. You are a follower of herectics. M Luther, calvin, wesley and only God knows whoelse. judge for yourself now. make no mistake about it though that the Truth still being proclaimed by the catholic church therefore it is your responsiblity to make sure that you accept the truth despite of what you have been taught. if you did not know about the catholic church you would be excused but since you know and refuse to believe you will be guilt.

:bowdown:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

the reason you dont agree with most catholic theology is because you have been tought by strange voices. You are a follower of herectics. M Luther, calvin, wesley and only God knows whoelse. judge for yourself now. make no mistake about it though that the Truth still being proclaimed by the catholic church therefore it is your responsiblity to make sure that you accept the truth despite of what you have been taught. if you did not know about the catholic church you would be excused but since you know and refuse to believe you will be guilt.

:bowdown:

Thank you

 

[wisdomseeker]

The decline of catholicism is most due to the spread of protestantism with its easy way out of preaching. i remember that in Brasil years ago catholics were 89% of population, now is down to 62 or 68%. protestants were very limited. in the nineties american protestants sneak into the country with their charities pretext and spread throughtout. now they have these mega churches taking all the money they can get their hands on from the poorst of the poorest. why? because the catholic church says one thing, protestants says another. catholic church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true. therefore, people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC. as for myself i offer no support for those who are against what we believe as the truth and are leading others away from the truth and trying to destroy the CC. I love them for the Lord commanded that we love our enemies, but they are against us and not for us.
God is Mighty, in deed.

I just thought i should throw this in here.

 

[Filius99993]

Hi,
Thank you for the info. I am not going to respond because this is not what the thread is about. Obviously you know I disagree Thanks though

You need to stop your conceited ignorance and actually read what we’ve been telling you. Or you will regret it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The decline of catholicism is most due to the spread of protestantism with its easy way out of preaching. i remember that in Brasil years ago catholics were 89% of population, now is down to 62 or 68%. protestants were very limited. in the nineties american protestants sneak into the country with their charities pretext and spread throughtout. now they have these mega churches taking all the money they can get their hands on from the poorst of the poorest. why? because the catholic church says one thing, protestants says another. catholic church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true. therefore, people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC. as for myself i offer no support for those who are against what we believe as the truth and are leading others away from the truth and trying to destroy the CC. I love them for the Lord commanded that we love our enemies, but they are against us and not for us.
God is Mighty, in deed.

I just thought i should throw this in here.

Hi Wisdom,

I applaud you for being as passionate as you are for the CC. I hope your passion for Christ supercedes your passion for the CC.
There were so many false premises in your post about us mean old prots but they have been covered on these forums to death and that is not the point of this thread anyway. I cant blame you for feeling this way because Im sure this stuff is fed to you via the CC as it is to some prots about those mean old caths as well. Neither side should bash the other, but I guess that is what apologetics is about Which is why I prefer to stay away from it.

Even though you do not agree with my beliefs , I do hope you take the time, as I did, to research what the other believes:thumbsup: I did so with an open mind even though my conclusions stand. I do agree with you that people are confused because of how christians act towards each other. Sad really
Heck I defend the CC to catholics!! I am discipling a catholic right now. I have not asked her to leave catholocism and I wont. If she chooses to leave, without any (name removed by moderator)ut from me, I will support her, but I dont really care what church she attends as long as she knows the truth about Christ and why He died. Honestly, I know she knows the truth so we continue studying the bible together and let God guide her path and mine.

Thank you for taking the time to write me
God Bless

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi Wisdom,

I applaud you for being as passionate as you are for the CC. I hope your passion for Christ supercedes your passion for the CC.
There were so many false premises in your post about us mean old prots but they have been covered on these forums to death and that is not the point of this thread anyway. I cant blame you for feeling this way because Im sure this stuff is fed to you via the CC as it is to some prots about those mean old caths as well. Neither side should bash the other, but I guess that is what apologetics is about Which is why I prefer to stay away from it.

Even though you do not agree with my beliefs , I do hope you take the time, as I did, to research what the other believes:thumbsup: I did so with an open mind even though my conclusions stand. I do agree with you that people are confused because of how christians act towards each other. Sad really
Heck I defend the CC to catholics!! I am discipling a catholic right now. I have not asked her to leave catholocism and I wont. If she chooses to leave, without any (name removed by moderator)ut from me, I will support her, but I dont really care what church she attends as long as she knows the truth about Christ and why He died. Honestly, I know she knows the truth so we continue studying the bible together and let God guide her path and mine.

Thank you for taking the time to write me
God Bless

this is not to bash noone but the truth. and my passion for His Church shows not only how much i love the One who built it bbut also that i believe what He said.

 

[Catherine_S]

The decline of catholicism is most due to the spread of protestantism with its easy way out of preaching. i remember that in Brasil years ago catholics were 89% of population, now is down to 62 or 68%. protestants were very limited. in the nineties american protestants sneak into the country with their charities pretext and spread throughtout. now they have these mega churches taking all the money they can get their hands on from the poorst of the poorest. why? because the catholic church says one thing, protestants says another. catholic church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true. therefore, people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC. as for myself i offer no support for those who are against what we believe as the truth and are leading others away from the truth and trying to destroy the CC. I love them for the Lord commanded that we love our enemies, but they are against us and not for us.
God is Mighty, in deed.

I just thought i should throw this in here.

This is a good article from a protestant website! *
Someone is waking up.
Are Churches Secularing America ?
Michael S. Horton
[http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=917&var3=issuedisplay&var4=IssRead&var5=98](http://www.modernreformation.org/de...r2=917&var3=issuedisplay&var4=IssRead&var5=98)
Substantiating the Charge (excerpt only)
Based on numerous studies conducted by his research group, evangelical pollster George Barna writes: “To increasing millions of Americans, God-if we even believe in a supernatural deity-exists for the pleasure of humankind. He resides in the heavenly realm solely for our utility and benefit. Although we are too clever to voice it, we live by the notion that true power is accessed not by looking upward but by turning inward.” ( Unless something changes, Barna thinks, "it will be every man for himself, with no second thoughts or regrets about the personal or societal implications of this incredibly selfish, nihilistic, narcissistic way of life."
.
*After citing a series of reports, Barna concludes, "In short, the spirituality of America is Christian in name only." We desire experience more than knowledge. We prefer choices to absolutes. We embrace preferences rather than truths. We seek comfort* rather than** growth**. Faith must come on our terms or we reject it. We have enthroned ourselves as the final arbiters of righteousness, the ultimate** rulers of our own experience** and destiny. We are the Pharisees of the new millennium.*

*. *

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is a good article from a protestant website! *
Someone is waking up.
Are Churches Secularing America ?
Michael S. Horton
[http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=917&var3=issuedisplay](http://www.modernreformation.org/de...r2=917&var3=issuedisplay&var4=IssRead&var5=98)&var4=IssRead&var5=98
Substantiating the Charge (excerpt only)
Based on numerous studies conducted by his research group, evangelical pollster George Barna writes: “To increasing millions of Americans, God-if we even believe in a supernatural deity-exists for the pleasure of humankind. He resides in the heavenly realm solely for our utility and benefit. Although we are too clever to voice it, we live by the notion that true power is accessed not by looking upward but by turning inward.” ( Unless something changes, Barna thinks, "it will be every man for himself, with no second thoughts or regrets about the personal or societal implications of this incredibly selfish, nihilistic, narcissistic way of life."
.
*After citing a series of reports, Barna concludes, "In short, the spirituality of America is Christian in name only." We desire experience more than knowledge. We prefer choices to absolutes. We embrace preferences rather than truths. We seek comfort** rather than** growth**. Faith must come on our terms or we reject it. We have enthroned ourselves as the final arbiters of righteousness, the ultimate** rulers of our own experience** and destiny. We are the Pharisees of the new millennium.

*. *

AMEN! in deed someone with some sense.
God is Mighty, in deed!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is a good article from a protestant website! *
Someone is waking up.
Are Churches Secularing America ?
Michael S. Horton
[http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=917&var3=issuedisplay](http://www.modernreformation.org/de...r2=917&var3=issuedisplay&var4=IssRead&var5=98)&var4=IssRead&var5=98
Substantiating the Charge (excerpt only)
Based on numerous studies conducted by his research group, evangelical pollster George Barna writes: “To increasing millions of Americans, God-if we even believe in a supernatural deity-exists for the pleasure of humankind. He resides in the heavenly realm solely for our utility and benefit. Although we are too clever to voice it, we live by the notion that true power is accessed not by looking upward but by turning inward.” ( Unless something changes, Barna thinks, "it will be every man for himself, with no second thoughts or regrets about the personal or societal implications of this incredibly selfish, nihilistic, narcissistic way of life."
.
*After citing a series of reports, Barna concludes, "In short, the spirituality of America is Christian in name only." We desire experience more than knowledge. We prefer choices to absolutes. We embrace preferences rather than truths. We seek comfort** rather than** growth**. Faith must come on our terms or we reject it. We have enthroned ourselves as the final arbiters of righteousness, the ultimate** rulers of our own experience** and destiny. We are the Pharisees of the new millennium.

*. *

I agree and so would my minister with this article. I am truly blessed that God placed me in a church that teaches the gospel message of Christ and sin and we need to walk the talk.
We do not believe in feel good theology. Actually I went to a forum last night(at my church) about submission to husbands I found out I have ALOT of sin to work through on this issue

I just hope you realize that this is not just a prot issue but also a cath one as well. I think you guys call them cafeteria catholics.

Besides what the article said–the problem is people are too full of pride to admit their sin and step out of the darkness and into the light. Most people really dont want their sins found out.

Americans need to get back to what the word of God really says and not what they think it says. We can only do that if we study it daily. God does tell us to renew our minds daily so that we can avoid these issues. I bettcha most Americans dont read their bibles. They just listen once a week at church and feel that is good enough. Well, it is not good enough if you really want to learn what God teaches us and then put it into practice.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I agree and so would my minister with this article. I am truly blessed that God placed me in a church that teaches the gospel message of Christ and sin and we need to walk the talk.
We do not believe in feel good theology. Actually I went to a forum last night(at my church) about submission to husbands I found out I have ALOT of sin to work through on this issue

I just hope you realize that this is not just a prot issue but also a cath one as well. I think you guys call them cafeteria catholics.

Besides what the article said–the problem is people are too full of pride to admit their sin and step out of the darkness and into the light. Most people really dont want their sins found out.

Americans need to get back to what the word of God really says and not what they think it says. We can only do that if we study it daily. God does tell us to renew our minds daily so that we can avoid these issues. I bettcha most Americans dont read their bibles. They just listen once a week at church and feel that is good enough. Well, it is not good enough if you really want to learn what God teaches us and then put it into practice.

i dont think you understood the message. you mention that people need to read the Bible more. how much more can you guys read the Bible? is it not what you guys been doing all your lives? what good does it do to read something that you do not understand? is it not the reason of the confusion everyone claiming authority in understanding the Bible? for your info in the old ages people did not get saved by reading the Bible but because their obedience the and their faith given by the catholic faith. they believe. they died for this faith.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

i dont think you understood the message. you mention that people need to read the Bible more. how much more can you guys read the Bible? We need to study it for the rest of our lives. Their is SOOO much to learn it really does take a lifetime and even then we never know all the answers. Im sure we will continue to learn the answers in heaven for eternity. AMEN!!!

is it not what you guys been doing all your lives?

I bettcha not the people they are talking about in the article.

what good does it do to read something that you do not understand?

What makes you think we dont understand it? Not all christians are on the same page at the exact same time in their life. We all learn and grow in Christ at different times in our lives. Do you read and study the bible?

is it not the reason of the confusion everyone claiming authority in understanding the Bible?

Well, prots dont claim to have absolute authority.

for your info in the old ages people did not get saved by reading the Bible but because their obedience the and their faith given by the catholic faith. they believe. they died for this faith.

So are you saying that by being obedient to the followings of the CC these people were saved? I realize people did not have bibles back then. However, a church does not save anyone. That is from God and God alone. Back then if any of those people are in heaven now(which Im sure,not all, are) it is because God drew them to HIM by His grace through faith He saved them.

 

[Catherine_S]

I agree and so would my minister with this article. I am truly blessed that God placed me in a church that teaches the gospel message of Christ and sin and we need to walk the talk.
We do not believe in feel good theology. Actually I went to a forum last night(at my church) about submission to husbands I found out I have ALOT of sin to work through on this issue

I just hope you realize that this is not just a prot issue but also** a cath one** as well. I think you guys call them cafeteria catholics.

Besides what the article said–the problem is people are too full of pride to admit their sin and step out of the darkness and into the light. Most people really dont want their sins found out.

Americans need to get back to what the word of God really says and not what they think it says. We can only do that if we study it daily. God does tell us to renew our minds daily so that we can avoid these issues. I bettcha most Americans dont read their bibles. They just listen once a week at church and feel that is good enough. Well, it is not good enough if you really want to learn what God teaches us and then put it into practice.

*Other times, advocates of the “unity in essentials” argument will attempt to construct *a parallel argument against Catholics by pointing to the existence of ostensible Catholics who refuse to acknowledge the magisterium’s teachings.

In response, it should be pointed out that the difference among Catholic dissidents is frequently far less than among individuals in the sweep of Protestant belief. Furthermore, an individuals’ refusal to accept the magisterium’s teachings does not challenge the Christ-given authority of the magisterium any more than the refusal to accept some of Paul’s teachings undermines Paul’s authority as an apostle. Moreover, Protestant churches also have individuals who refuse to honor the teachings of their denominations. The difference is that for Catholicism there is a body—the bishops teaching in union with the pope—who “speak for the Church” and who can articulate what “the Catholic position” is, while in Protestantism there is nothing comparable.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312bt.asp
.
Getting back on topic…
*I believe that many have fallen into Heresy. They accept heretical beliefs but I call no one a heretic nor do I refer to anyone as my separated brethen. It sounds false! *
*I **share **my faith with others **if *they are not arrogant, closed minded or playing games. I do not want anyone to try and convert me nor do I desire to convert anyone else.
*This I leave to those in authority :yup: . *
*. *

 

[roguejim]

As far as “converting others” is concerned, that is the Holy Spirit’s job. We however, are obliged to evangelize, thereby sowing the seeds for conversion, and to defend the Catholic Faith when challenged.

As for the Bible:

“The sense of scripture can be found incorrupt nowhere outside the Catholic Church.”
POPE LEO XIII

 

[ALLFORHIM]

.

*I believe that many have fallen into Heresy. They accept heretical beliefs but I call no one a heretic nor do I refer to anyone as my separated brethen. It sounds false! *
*I **share ***my faith with others **if **they are not arrogant, closed minded or playing games. I do not want anyone to try and convert me nor do I desire to convert anyone else.
This I leave to those in authority :yup: .
*. *

Thanks Catherine:thumbsup: I agree with you wholeheartedly and do the same just on the opposing side I guess.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

As far as “converting others” is concerned, that is the Holy Spirit’s job. We however, are obliged to evangelize, thereby sowing the seeds for conversion, and to defend the Catholic Faith when challenged.

Absolutely!! I plant seeds for Christ all the time at my gym but leave the rest to God.

As for the Bible:

“The sense of scripture can be found incorrupt nowhere outside the Catholic Church.”
POPE LEO XIII

You already know where I stand on this isuue

 

[wisdomseeker]

ALLFORHIM:
So are you saying that by being obedient to the followings of the CC these people were saved? I realize people did not have bibles back then. However, a church does not save anyone. That is from God and God alone. Back then if any of those people are in heaven now(which Im sure,not all, are) it is because God drew them to HIM by His grace through faith He saved them.

Really! what do you make of Noah’s ark? what did God say to Noah?

Yes a person to come into the Church CC has to be called by Our God, one will not come just because they want to. only by the Grace of God one will see the His Church. that is the mystery of God His Church.

 

[Erich]

Catherine S.:

This I leave to those in authority.

Thanks Catherine:thumbsup: I agree with you wholeheartedly

Which of course begs the question … by what authority???

ALLFORHIM:

what good does it do to read something that you do not understand?

What makes you think we dont understand it?

Hmm, I would be tempted to respond that it’s because you don’t really understand the parts about apostolic authority and apostolic succession
Acts 8:31-32a:

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?”

That someone, of course, must be a duly-constituted authority… yet the reason we have “separated brethren” in the first place is because we don’t all agree on who even has that authority (and how that authority was obtained).

You might be interested to know that Protestant professor D. Stephen Long admits that Protestantism needs a pope in order to achieve the visible unity that it lacks (you can read his entire article, published in the 5/17/2005 issue of Christian Century, here).

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You might be interested to know that Protestant professor D. Stephen Long admits that Protestantism needs a pope in order to achieve the visible unity that it lacks (you can read his entire article, published in the 5/17/2005 issue of Christian Century, here).

You know what–now sit down and strap yourself in to the chair--------I wouldnt mind at all having one person with authority to clean up the mess in protestanism DID I JUST SAY THAT!!!

Yes I did However, it would not be that one single person alone. They would have to be able to be held accountable if they started to teach false doctrine. They would not also be infallible as we dont believe in that.

 

[mercygate]

ALLFORHIM:

You know what–now sit down and strap yourself in to the chair--------I wouldnt mind at all having one person with authority to clean up the mess in protestanism DID I JUST SAY THAT!!!

Yes I did However, it would not be that one single person alone. They would have to be able to be held accountable if they started to teach false doctrine.

You have just described the pope in communion with all the bishops of the Church!

They would not also be infallible as we dont believe in that.

But you DO believe in truth. :yup: You DO believe that God wants us to know and believe the truth. :yup: Therefore you DO believe in something – whatever you might call it – that falls under an umbrella similar to infallibility. :yup:

If you believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, it’s only a hiccough to believe that the Holy Spirit Who wrote the Bible works through the living chain of His apostolic authority in Christ’s Church. Barely a hiccough.

Funny how different people struggle with different things. This was for me pretty easy. It took me a lot longer to translate it into believing all the details of the faith proposed for my belief if I were to become Catholic.

I kind of came around by asking myself (about stuff like the Immaculate Conception): Do I NOT believe this MORE and with better reasons than I believe in the Scriptural warrant for the Catholic Church. Of course, the answer was no. And when you get that far down the river, ya gotta tie your dinghy on the Vatican side of the Tiber.