Can non-Catholics be saved?

[Abu]

Plain for all to see is the SSPX-style refutation of papal authority when it does not agree with pet prejudices, and the authoritative understanding of salvation for non-Catholics which many Popes from Clement I to John Paul II have expressly taken the care and effort to teach and emphasize.

BTW, the CCC is issued through an Apostolic Constitution (Fidei Depositum), and “is a sure norm for teaching the faith” (John Paul II, p 5) – but of course the dissenters claim to know better than the Pope.

Let’s look at more facts against “we’re in, you’re out”:
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=48

“But there is one simple problem with this assumption: It’s not true. First, the Church, centuries before Vatican II, regarded Orthodox sacraments as valid, which is awfully hard to do if you don’t think Christ can be found anywhere but in the Catholic Church. Similarly, it has always regarded the baptism of non-Catholics as valid – and a valid baptism means you are, in some sense, in union with Christ. Still more recently and most plainly (but still well before the council), Rev. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for insisting that only people in visible communion with the Catholic Church could be saved. So this simplistic “We’re in, you’re out” reading of Unam Sanctam (and the corollary that Lumen Gentium “cancelled” it) doesn’t fly.

“So is there a more balanced picture that reverences both* Unam Sanctam and Lumen Gentium* as authentic magisterial teaching? Yes.

“Catholics also don’t assume that anybody (even a non-Christian and indeed even an atheist) is going to hell. The Church has always believed that those who do not know Christ by name may yet respond to the promptings of His Spirit and so ultimately be saved by Him. She believes this because it was taught by Jesus Christ in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, which describes the judgment of people who had no idea they were serving (or rejecting) Jesus as they answered (or refused) the demands of conscience with respect to “the least of these.” That is why both the saved and the damned in the parable reply with astonishment to the King, “Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?” (Mt 25:37–39).

October 25th, 2009
Boniface had a lifelong history of intemperate expression. Moreover, he was not addressing the world; nor was he even addressing the subject of non-Christians or non-Catholics. He was addressing Europeans–all Catholics. “Every creature” means a bunch of Catholics in Europe.

And it is necessary for salvation for Catholics to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Otherwise, they have knowingly and deliberately exited the Catholic Church. Doing so is a mortal sin.

Unam sanctam is a most abused and misunderstood document.
Written by Fr. Vincent Fitzpatrick

October 26th, 2009
[As a Catholic] The issue is not whether some people can be saved without practicing the Catholic Faith. The issue is you. If you stop practicing the Catholic Faith, you will be committing a mortal sin, and risk dying in mortal sin and going to Hell.
Another reason: to give glory to God.
Written by Fr. Vincent Fitzpatrick

 

[Tradycja]

Plain for all to see is the SSPX-style refutation of papal authority when it does not agree with pet prejudices, and the authoritative understanding of salvation for non-Catholics which many Popes from Clement I to John Paul II have expressly taken the care and effort to explain and emphasize.

BTW, the CCC is issued through an Apostolic Constitution (Fidei Depositum), and “is a sure norm for teaching the faith” (John Paul II, p 5) – but of course the dissenters claim to know better than the Pope.

You make no distinction between extraordinary magisterium, universal ordinary magisterium, ordinary magisterium and the private books of the Popes (like JPII’s Crossing the Threshold…) Your position is akin to a sedevacantist. You make no distinction between levels of teaching authority. For you a quotation of a Pope in his personal paperback is the same thing as a solemn statement in an Ecumenical Council.

The CCC, simply speaking, is not part of the solemn magisterial teaching of the Church. It is only infallible, where it reiterates defined doctrine.* Even the Catechism of Trent is not per se infallible, but only in the same qualified sense. The Jesuits, for example, refused to abide by the Trent Catechism on the question of efficacious grace and the freedom of the will. The Catechism favored the Thomistic view, which emphasized the movement of the freewill by grace. The Jesuits emphasized the free will’s cooperation with the grace.* Both opinions arefree to be held, so long as the two extremes of Jansenism, on the one side, and Pelagianism on the other are avoided. As long as one upholds boththe freedom of the willand the necessity of grace, either emphasis is acceptable. Therefore, to answer your question “Is the CCC part of the ordinary magisterium of the Church?” No, not without qualification. If the CCC teaches a novel doctrine, then thatcannot be part of the ordinary magisterium. The ordinary magisterium must measure withthe solemn magisterium, it is not a parallel magisterium. Basically the famous principle laid down by St, Vincent of Lerins defines what came to be known as the “ordinary magisterium.” That is of Catholic Faith which has been believed “semper, ubique, et ab omnibus.” (always, everywhere, and by all.)

Let’s look at more facts against “we’re in, you’re out”:
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=48

By the way, apologist Bill Strom totally destroyed Mark Shea’s article. That way I don’t have to do it myself.

Bill is not a traditionalist.

Here is the article:
catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/12/i-was-notified-by-friend-that-response.html

 

[sidbrown]

I do not doubt that the present teaching of the Catholic Church is that non-Catholics can achieve salvation. However, it looks like this was not the teaching of the Catholic Church in the past:
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. ex cathedra (infallibly defined):
“…so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation…”
POPE PIUS VIII, ENCYCLICAL TRADITI HUMILITATI, MAY 24, 1829, par # 4:
“If one is true, the other must be false; there can be no society of darkness with light. Against these experienced sophists the people must be taught that the profession of the Catholic faith is uniquely true, as the apostle proclaims: one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Jerome used to say it this way: he who eats the lamb outside this house will perish as did those during the flood who were not with Noah in the ark. Indeed, no other name than the name of Jesus is given to men, by which they may be saved. He who believes shall be saved; he who does not believe shall be condemned.” papalencyclicals.net/Pius08/p8tradit.htm
POPE PIUS IX, ENCYCLICAL SINGULARI QUIDEM, MARCH 17, 1856 par.#5:
“While you work at the salvation of your flock, strive also, in all goodness, patience, and teaching, to recall the unfortunate strays to the one fold of Christ and to Catholic unity. Address to them especially these words of St. Augustine: “Come, brothers, if you wish, so that you may be grafted to the vine. We are saddened to see you thus cut off and lying so. Count the bishops who have occupied the See of Peter; see this uninterrupted succession of popes. See the rock against which the powers of hell will not be able to prevail.” “Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is an impious person. Whoever is not in Noah’s ark will perish in the flood.” papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9singul.htm

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “ …and that the unity of this ecclesiastical body (i.e. Church membership) is so strong that only for those who abide in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, …unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#4
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council 1512-17, session # 11:
“Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ’s faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution,…”
Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

 

[Mystic_Banana]

But that’s the thing - what you end up, I think, is a lack of consistency . I’d also consider the historical contexts of these as well - especially post-protestantism

 

[Louemma]

Salvation is a free gift offered to all that come to Jesus.Salvation is not obtained through the Catholic Church.Salvation is obtained by professing on the name of Jesus and accepting him as Lord and Savior.
This belief that Salvation is only for Catholics is about like The Church Of Assembly who teach that you don’t have salvation until you get proof by speaking in tongues.

 

[sidbrown]

Salvation is a free gift offered to all that come to Jesus.Salvation is not obtained through the Catholic Church.Salvation is obtained by professing on the name of Jesus and accepting him as Lord and Savior.
This belief that Salvation is only for Catholics is about like The Church Of Assembly who teach that you don’t have salvation until you get proof by speaking in tongues.

What is meant by accepting Him as Lord and Savior. Suppose for example, that you do,but you do not perform the good works as listed in Matthew 25, 34- 46 ?

 

[Louemma]

What is meant by accepting Him as Lord and Savior. Suppose for example, that you do,but you do not perform the good works as listed in Matthew 25, 34- 46 ?

Works will not get anyone into heaven.You know this.Faith without works is dead but good works will not obtain salvation through Jesus Christ.Faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God and believing in him for eternal life is the only way to salvation,by way of the cross
Salvation is offered to anyone who believes and calls on the name of Jesus.Whether they be Catholic or non Catholic.God searches the heart of a man to know what is in a man.If this man has salvation through Jesus,God don’t first check to see if he’s Catholic or not.What God sees is redemption for one who is covered by the blood of the lamb.
Of course a child of God is going to be up and about the Father’s business by doing the good works.

 

[sidbrown]

Works will not get anyone into heaven.You know this.Faith without works is dead but good works will not obtain salvation through Jesus Christ.Faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God and believing in him for eternal life is the only way to salvation,by way of the cross
Salvation is offered to anyone who believes and calls on the name of Jesus.Whether they be Catholic or non Catholic.God searches the heart of a man to know what is in a man.If this man has salvation through Jesus,God don’t first check to see if he’s Catholic or not.What God sees is redemption for one who is covered by the blood of the lamb.
Of course a child of God is going to be up and about the Father’s business by doing the good works.

According to the Bible, Matthew 25, 34- 46, if you perform the good works listed there, you will attain salvation and if you do not, you will not attain salvation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Salvation is a free gift offered to all that come to Jesus.Salvation is not obtained through the Catholic Church.Salvation is obtained by professing on the name of Jesus and accepting him as Lord and Savior.
This belief that Salvation is only for Catholics is about like The Church Of Assembly who teach that you don’t have salvation until you get proof by speaking in tongues.

Louemma-

The situation is more nuanced than that. I hope you will do a bit of reading…I think these articles will help you understand the Catholic position:

Articles on Salavation Outside the Church

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1

 

[Louemma]

Louemma-

The situation is more nuanced than that. I hope you will do a bit of reading…I think these articles will help you understand the Catholic position:

Articles on Salavation Outside the Church

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1

I will read this but I am in firm belief and know that the only way to the Father is through the Son…
John 14:5 Thomas said to him,"Lord we don’t know where you are going,so how can we know the way?
John 14:6 Jesus answered,"I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me.

By this scripture we can be confident in our understanding that the only way to obtain salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied,Love the Lord God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.(This is the greatest commandment and Loving God is not works)

So we know that one will not obtain salvation through works because as Jesus said"No one comes to the Father without first coming to him.Jesus is the only way to receiving eternal life(Salvation)

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me,Lord Lord,will enter the kingdom of Heaven,but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day,Lord,Lord,did we not prophesy in your name,and drive out demons and perform many miracles?
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly,I never knew you.Away from me you evildoers.

The above scripture makes it very clear that unless you obtain salvation by the way of the cross,by the blood of the lamb,by receiving Jesus Christ as the son of God and your Lord and Savior,all the works one can do will be for nothing.Unless one has salvation through Jesus he will say He never knew you.That is why we who have salvation through Jesus know him and he knows us.
All the good works in the world a person can do will not matter if Jesus don’t know your name.
On top of all this with the Catholic teaching on purgatory then one understands that works can be burn up,if you get salvation by works then there are going to be folks that get burn up if they try getting to heaven on good works.

 

[Abu]

Two excellent articles, Randy, which explain the infallible teaching of Christ’s Church which is non-contradictory, and taught by Clement I in early Church history in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

The dissenters who try to put themselves above the Magisterium may mislead some Catholics, as well as scaring our separated brethren. The errors are in not assenting to the fact that Jesus founded His Church on the rock of Peter His Vicar, and Peter’s successors – until the end of time – found in the Word of God given to us by His Church which proclaimed infallibly that non-Catholics may be saved, and also which writings formed the Sacred Scriptures without which our separated brethren would not even have a Bible (even if incomplete).

 

[Randy_Carson]

I will read this but I am in firm belief and know that the only way to the Father is through the Son…

Of course. However, there is nothing unreasonable about the gospel’s demand for a commitment to Christ also requiring a corresponding commitment to the Catholic Church which He founded beginning with Peter, the rock.

 

[Louemma]

Of course. However, there is nothing unreasonable about the gospel’s demand for a commitment to Christ also requiring a corresponding commitment to the Catholic Church which He founded beginning with Peter, the rock.

I understand what you are saying but you are missing my point.The Catholic church is not what offers salvation.The accepting of Jesus Christ is the only way anyone,Catholic or non catholic can be saved.The Catholic church can not save anyone! That’s my point and what I say is true if one stays in the accordance with God’s word.The thread states "Can a non Catholic be saved?Well ask yourself does the Catholic church save people or does Jesus save people?Really it’s simple when you understand that A church can not save anyone,only the son of God can do this.
Now in regards to your post,the commitment to Christ only comes after salvation has been received because then to say the commitment first is to the church is saying "Works obtain salvation. Jesus is the only one who can give us eternal life,the only one and the only way.

 

[sidbrown]

The accepting of Jesus Christ is the only way anyone,Catholic or non catholic can be saved…

And can a person who does not accept Christ, such as a Jew, Hindu or Buddhist, be saved?

 

[Abu]

Louemma, who are you to ignore Christ when He founded His Church with His Vicar, His Church on whom the gates of hell would not prevail?

The further problem for you, Louemma, is that “accepting Jesus” has nothing to do with receiving sanctifying grace in a spiritually dead soul – that idea is false – we have been redeemed by Christ, and now we have to cooperate with Jesus by having our souls spiritually alive by gaining sanctifying grace either through the sacrament of baptism or by baptism of desire and following His Way as best we can. Jesus redeemed mankind, but each of us needs to cooperate to be saved. It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 105-7].

You, do not have the authority to contradict Christ in giving us His Church as the means of salvation – Christ’s Church which gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God. Christ founded His Church as His Mystical Body for the salvation of all mankind – and all who may be saved through implicit faith have achieved that state through Christ’s Church through His truths of revelation which have penetrated all cultures however dimly. Without the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

 

[Louemma]

And can a person who does not accept Christ, such as a Jew, Hindu or Buddhist, be saved?

What a trick question

Let’s look at the native Americans that never heard of God or Jesus many moons ago.God is a most merciful God and in this case I believe he would judge the heart.The people who were ignorant to the word of God and to hear the gospel are not under the covenant,Old and New.

A heathen that has heard the good news of Jesus Christ and rejects him will not get to heaven any other way.However the Bible speaks of the Jews as being blinded so I hesitate to commit on them.I will say God is no respecter of person’s so it would seem that if anyone that has heard the good news of Jesus and rejects him would die in a state that is lost.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma, who are you to ignore Christ when He founded His Church with His Vicar, His Church on whom the gates of hell would not prevail?

The further problem for you, Louemma, is that “accepting Jesus” has nothing to do with receiving sanctifying grace in a spiritually dead soul – that idea is false – we have been redeemed by Christ, and now we have to cooperate with Jesus by having our souls spiritually alive by gaining sanctifying grace either through the sacrament of baptism or by baptism of desire and following His Way as best we can. Jesus redeemed mankind, but each of us needs to cooperate to be saved. It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse

, p 105-7].

You, do not have the authority to contradict Christ in giving us His Church as the means of salvation – Christ’s Church which gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God. Christ founded His Church as His Mystical Body for the salvation of all mankind – and all who may be saved through implicit faith have achieved that state through Christ’s Church through His truths of revelation which have penetrated all cultures however dimly. Without the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

I’m still working on knowing the Catholic belief so what I go on as of now is the word of God that says the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.I suppose as of this moment my authority is the word of God.
Thank you for the information.
Now to clarify what I’m saying…
I’m not saying anything against the church,heavens no!I’m responding to the thread which ask"Can non-Catholics be saved? And the answer is yes if you know that the only way to getting saved is one way only and that is through Jesus.Of course a child of God don’t stop there and they need to be absorbed into the things of God by his church.I’m just saying the church is not what saves a Catholic or a non Catholic.
What I say is true,according to the word of God.

 

[Abu]

Louemma
……the only way to getting saved is one way only and that is through Jesus. Of course a child of God don’t stop there and they need to be absorbed into the things of God by his church. I’m just saying the church is not what saves a Catholic or a non Catholic.
What I say is true, according to the word of God.

You are under the impression that salvation is available to all through Jesus without His Church, and that His Church – the Church which He built – is meaningless for salvation; and the basis for your impression is the Bible.

So how did you get this “scripture alone” authority on which you base your impression?
Is it not of vital significance: that Our Lord did not give us a book or collection of writings about His teaching, but chose apostles with a leader (St Peter) to whom alone was given the Keys of the Kingdom separately, the charge of binding and loosing, and of confirming his brethren – on whom He built His Church? That these apostles taught and then gave us SOME of this teaching in writing, inspired by the Holy Spirit? That a successor of Our Lord’s chosen St Peter declared which writings make up the Word of God? How would you know the teaching of Jesus without the authority of His Church?

 

[jericho777]

These are just a couple from the Douay-Rheimis bible . Hpoe they shed some light.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)

Acts 15:11 But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.

Rom 5:9 Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.

2 Tim 3:15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[sidbrown]

What a trick question.

I disagree that this is a trick question. It is a question which arises in the real world of today because Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists far outnumber Christians.