Can our family still be catholic?

[PaulfromIowa]

Thanks to all for giving your advice.
Some clarification regarding the embryo’s: I consider them to be our children. They are from my ova and my husband’s sperm, so we are their parents in all possible definitions. We never had any embryo’s willfully destroyed or given up for experimentation. All have been safely frozen.

I’m not a specialist on the church’s teachings in this subject, but I do believe that the most ethical thing to do at this point is to give the embryo’s the best chances of being born into their own family…

We’ll definitely speak with our parish priest. I’m not sure what he’ll say. How can we be absolved for committing a sin we don’t regret? It’s a huge relief that our child will be able to receive baptism.

Dear Sarah,

I am no expert on IVF either but I suspect that you are taking an overly optimistic view of the procedure. I suspect that some of your embryos were destroyed whether you know it or not. It certainly is the case that IVF practitioners destroy many, many embryos for every child born alive.

I think that the Church’s teaching against IVF is probably absolutely correct due to this widespread destruction of human embryos. That does not mean that you should not be happy for your healthy child. But, we should not let happy endings blind us to morally problematic means.

Certainly talk to your pastor. I would suspect and hope that you can be easily absolved of any sin involved and can raise your children in the Church.

 

[takers]

2nd… the church is clear that every child has a right to be conceived in a loving act between a mother and father. You denied your children that right…can you please be sorry for this fact? Not the fact that the children exist, but that you directly stole their part in the image of the trinity. **There will be emotional and spiritual wounds he sustains because of this. **
He instituted that marriage is an image of the trinity and Christ’s love for the church…2 begets three. You desecrated this natural image and made it in your own image.

I think it’s a bit melodramatic to state that because this child was born of IVF that there WILL be emotional and spiritual wounds. You don’t know this. While it’s an option, the child could also rejoice in the fact that they have loving parents who went through a lot of heartache and tears to have them.

 

[agapewolf]

I think it’s a bit melodramatic to state that because this child was born of IVF that there WILL be emotional and spiritual wounds. You don’t know this. While it’s an option, the child could also rejoice in the fact that they have loving parents who went through a lot of heartache and tears to have them.

It’s not melodramatic, and you’re not getting at the same thing I am.

If you want to look into it, you can contact TOB healing center in Tallahassee, FL.

I took the class by them at the TOB institute: Sexual healing and redemption. Every thing we experience, from the very basic inherent conception, to traumas, intended and not-- down to even a parent being gone for a month during our infancy (for good reason, such as caring for a relative), we internalize and are wounded by.

The very reason that IVF is sinful IS BECAUSE of the wounds sustained in the child due to not being conceived by the marital act. Our souls are not trapped in the body, the body manifests the soul-- so what we do with the body effects the soul, and vice versa.

 

[Dorothy]

It’s not melodramatic, and you’re not getting at the same thing I am.

If you want to look into it, you can contact TOB healing center in Tallahassee, FL.

I took the class by them at the TOB institute: Sexual healing and redemption. Every thing we experience, from the very basic inherent conception, to traumas, intended and not-- down to even a parent being gone for a month during our infancy (for good reason, such as caring for a relative), we internalize and are wounded by.

The very reason that IVF is sinful IS BECAUSE of the wounds sustained in the child due to not being conceived by the marital act. Our souls are not trapped in the body, the body manifests the soul-- so what we do with the body effects the soul, and vice versa.

Thank you for your post.

I didn’t take a class at the TOB institute, but learned quite a bit from inner healing ministries. (Catholic).

It helped me to understand why our Lord Jesus Christ had a perfect Mother.

 

[90Domer]

First off, you don’t know that they’ve been “safely frozen”. IVF is the most dangerous way to create human beings. Most embryos don’t make it, many have deformities.

Let’s reflect on a minute on what the contrition would be for. Contrition does NOT have to be for the outcome of sinful behavior. God is the one that creates life, and gives the soul, NOT you. The fact that your child exists means that God allowed something good to come of sinful behavior. Many people live unchaste lives for awhile, and turn it around-- sometimes because of them seeing the emptyness that the unchastity caused them. They regret the offense they caused God and themselves, but NOT what they learned from the sinfulness. This is not the same thing as not being contrite for the sin.

2nd… the church is clear that every child has a right to be conceived in a loving act between a mother and father. You denied your children that right…can you please be sorry for this fact? Not the fact that the children exist, but that you directly stole their part in the image of the trinity. There will be emotional and spiritual wounds he sustains because of this.
He instituted that marriage is an image of the trinity and Christ’s love for the church…2 begets three. You desecrated this natural image and made it in your own image.

3rd- it sounds like you would only be sorry if you actually see harmful consequences. Because you can’t see them, there is no reason to be contrite? well, that is arrogance. The consequences are there, but you can’t see them.

Remember, God is only offended by what we do that harms us. It’s not an arbitrary rule that IVF is sinful, its actually harmful to us, to you. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean the harm isn’t there.

Please consider-- you don’t have to regret the good that came out of sin in order to regret the sin.

Respectfully speaking, I do not think there will be emotional and spiritual wounds because she does not have to share how her son (or subsequent children) was conceived. We are certainly not sharing that intimate detail with our son. No reason for him to know.

 

[90Domer]

I think it’s a bit melodramatic to state that because this child was born of IVF that there WILL be emotional and spiritual wounds. You don’t know this. While it’s an option, the child could also rejoice in the fact that they have loving parents who went through a lot of heartache and tears to have them.

As the mom of an IVF kiddo, and I think this is melodramatic (as does my husband). My kid has no idea how he was conceived and will never know. And in all my years of suffering from infertility and talking to multiple priests, I have never heard this.

What is the TOB Institute anyway?

 

[Dorothy]

Respectfully speaking, I do not think there will be emotional and spiritual wounds because she does not have to share how her son (or subsequent children) was conceived. We are certainly not sharing that intimate detail with our son. No reason for him to know.

I believe that what the writer of that post meant was that your son’s spirit will know; and I add that God’s love can heal if it is sought in a spirit of humility.

I stand corrected if the writer of that post understands otherwise.

 

[90Domer]

I believe that what the writer of that post meant was that your son’s spirit will know; and I add that God’s love can heal if it is sought in a spirit of humility.

I stand corrected if the writer of that post understands otherwise.

My husband, who has read Theology of the Body and has studied Mr. West’s works, believes this is wrong because spirits are not omniscient. They are not pre-informed about how conception took place. Now he does stand to be corrected if someone can point him to some literature.

 

[90Domer]

As the mom of an IVF kiddo, and I think this is melodramatic (as does my husband). My kid has no idea how he was conceived and will never know. And in all my years of suffering from infertility and talking to multiple priests, I have never heard this.

What is the TOB Institute anyway?

Never mind, we figured it out and I replied…or should say my hubby helped reply.

 

[90Domer]

I believe that what the writer of that post meant was that your son’s spirit will know; and I add that God’s love can heal if it is sought in a spirit of humility.

I stand corrected if the writer of that post understands otherwise.

Not everything taught in Theology of the Body is Church teaching. You are allowed to believe or disbelieve. Christopher West and his assistants can speculate or comment on some of these issues but they are not all Magesterial teachings.

 

[agapewolf]

Respectfully speaking, I do not think there will be emotional and spiritual wounds because she does not have to share how her son (or subsequent children) was conceived. We are certainly not sharing that intimate detail with our son. No reason for him to know.

Missing the point. The spiritual wounds can manifest as physical or emotional wounds. Whether he “knows” or not.

 

[agapewolf]

Not everything taught in Theology of the Body is Church teaching. You are allowed to believe or disbelieve. Christopher West and his assistants can speculate or comment on some of these issues but they are not all Magesterial teachings.

Wrong.

Theology of the Body is an explanation of church teaching.

I got my information from the director, a psychologist at the TOB healing center in Florida, who taught a class (and continues to lead them in FL) through the Theology of the Body institute.

Christopher West didn’t teach this class. He took it.

 

[Caroline723]

I was born and raised in the Catholic faith and so was my husband. We’ve been married for over 10 years. We struggled with infertility and pregnancy loss, which was an incredibly painfull period. We received a lot of support from our parish but it still almost destroyed our marriage.

A year ago, we chose to resolve our infertility by doing IVF. We both knew very well the CC’s stance on this. We were aware that what we were doing was a sin. The IVF was successfull, and we now have our beautiful son. We have several more embryo’s frozen and we are planning to use them all to have more children in the future.

We are very conflicted about whether we still are catholics at this point. We are aware of having committed a grave sin, but we can’t really confess it because, quite honestly, we’re not sorry. Infertility threw a dark shadow of grief over our whole lives which has now been lifted. I’d do IVF again in a heartbeat.

Because of this moral conflict, we’re afraid to go to mass, and we haven’t made any arrangements to have our son baptized. We’re afraid of rejection from our parish priest, and unsure if a child born from IVF CAN be baptized in the catholic church. At this point, I’m considering going to a church of a denomination that accepts IVF.

Is there a solution for this?

Sarah, I am sympathetic to you. I can imagine the hunger for parenthood, and confusion for why IVF is so wrong when it brings forth such a good, as in a new human life and the saving of your marriage. I think a lot of people think the catholic church is heartless in imposing rules that appear harsh, and the IVF one is probably at the top.

But… IVF is still morally wrong, for reasons it would be better to hear from a priest that you are comfortable speaking with. You could also go ask a priest in Confession if you are uncomfortable talking to a priest face to face.

And there are natural arguments against the use of IVF: while your son was born healthy (thanks be to God), children conceived via IVF statistically suffer more health problems after birth.

This doesn’t mean that those unable to conceive cannot be parents. IVF costs as much if not more than adoption. If I may ask you plainly, why did you choose IVF over adoption? Was it so important to have a biological child? I don’t mean this judgmentally, but do you see that undergoing IVF was a selfish act, in light of the fact you could have been a parent, even if it wasn’t biologically?

The deed is done, and you can still go to confession with imperfect contrition. I think it would bring you peace if you understood why IVF is gravely wrong. You need to check with a priest, but I believe that you can implant the other embryos without committing further sin.

I am sorry for your situation because the act of IVF opened up another can of worms. All of those other embryos, however many you have, are persons also. They are in this frozen state, left in limbo until they are a) implanted; b) thrown away; or c) . Are you prepared to implant them, one by one, carry them to term and raise them? Or would you be willing to give them up for adoption and allow someone else to raise your biological child?

There is a way to sort all of this out, and to return in good standing with the Church and your conscience, and to raise your children in the faith. I do hope you pursue it.

 

[Dorothy]

Not everything taught in Theology of the Body is Church teaching. You are allowed to believe or disbelieve. Christopher West and his assistants can speculate or comment on some of these issues but they are not all Magesterial teachings.

I didn’t get my understanding from Theology of the Body, but from about 38 years of exposure, workshops, and guidance from priests who teach about the charisms of the Holy Spirit, one of which is healing.

 

[jwinch2]

Yes, there is a solution. Give up the embryos and confess your sin in confession and move on.

Its not really as simple as that. In fact, its not even close. First, from the spiritual side of the equation, if there is no contrition, which the OP states clearly, and no resolve to sin further, which the OP also states clearly, then there is no absolution in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Thus, going to confession in the state they are in now would be a waste of time for everyone involved. Secondly, some tough questions have to be asked and decisions made regarding the embryos which already exist. This isn’t your run of the mill situation and some well-trained guidance will be needed to help the OP in making the best moral choice possible under the circumstances.

To the OP, you definitely need to speak to a priest. In particular, you might contact your diocese and see if there are some priests you can be referred to that have some advanced training in moral theology. You are in a delicate situation and you have some important decisions to make about the other embryos, so getting some highly qualified moral and spiritual guidance on this will be important for you.

Peace of Christ,

 

[Rence]

I was born and raised in the Catholic faith and so was my husband. We’ve been married for over 10 years. We struggled with infertility and pregnancy loss, which was an incredibly painfull period. We received a lot of support from our parish but it still almost destroyed our marriage.

A year ago, we chose to resolve our infertility by doing IVF. We both knew very well the CC’s stance on this. We were aware that what we were doing was a sin. The IVF was successfull, and we now have our beautiful son. We have several more embryo’s frozen and we are planning to use them all to have more children in the future.

We are very conflicted about whether we still are catholics at this point. We are aware of having committed a grave sin, but we can’t really confess it because, quite honestly, we’re not sorry. Infertility threw a dark shadow of grief over our whole lives which has now been lifted. I’d do IVF again in a heartbeat.

Because of this moral conflict, we’re afraid to go to mass, and we haven’t made any arrangements to have our son baptized. We’re afraid of rejection from our parish priest, and unsure if a child born from IVF CAN be baptized in the catholic church. At this point, I’m considering going to a church of a denomination that accepts IVF.

Is there a solution for this?

I don’t think you have to be sorry for commiting a ‘sin’ in order to be sorry for offending God. People might like to talk big about how you’re not contrite but one can say the same of somone who got pregnant out of wedlock but doesn’t regret having that child. I have never heard anyone say they regretted having a child that was conceived out of wedlock, though they may have been sorry or felt guilty for having had sex out of wedlock in the first place. They may be sorry to have committed a ‘sin’ but may not be sorry for the sin itself. I can understand that.

You can still have your son baptized. Talk to your priest. Baptising a child has nothing to do with how the child was conceived, but how the parents intend to raise the child. A requirement to Baptise a child is a commitment to raise that child Catholic, which has nothing to do with how she/he was conceived.

You can and still should attend Mass, but you should not receive Communion without confession and without talking to a priest for counsel.

As for what you should do with your frozen (and fertilized) eggs. Recall that the Church, which it considers IVF immoral, does not outright ban it. The reason IVF is considered immoral by the Church is because the Church requires both the 1) unitive property and the 2) procreative property. IVF eliminates the unitive property. But, You already have fertilized eggs that you regard as your children. Ask your priest what to do about it. Discussing this online is problematic because no one here is an expert in Church teaching and everyone has an opinion. Destroying the eggs is kind of like having an abortion, isn’t it? Leaving them there frozen is an option. Implanting them and giving them a chance to grow is immoral in the eyes of the Church but not outright banned. So talk to your priest or a counseler from your diocese.

 

[90Domer]

Wrong.

Theology of the Body is an explanation of church teaching.

I got my information from the director, a psychologist at the TOB healing center in Florida, who taught a class (and continues to lead them in FL) through the Theology of the Body institute.

Christopher West didn’t teach this class. He took it.

TOB has no doctrinal status, so I think we need to agree to disagree. I am talking about Catholic doctrine only. TOB has not been raised to the doctrinal status, last I heard. If I am wrong, please correct me and my husband, but husband studies a lot of Church teachings and has never heard of this.

And I am not going to lose any sleep over the possibility that I injured my kid unduly using IVF. I think the culture we live in and stuff he’s exposed to in everyday life will injure him more, sad to say.

 

[90Domer]

Missing the point. The spiritual wounds can manifest as physical or emotional wounds. Whether he “knows” or not.

If I can get the direct information, I would be willing to read it. But husband (a scripture scholar) thinks there is something being oversold/simplified in this example as an attempt to make TOB more understandable.

 

[90Domer]

I can honestly say that perhaps dear son has been more damaged because of how much hubby and I beat ourselves up rather than being damaged directly.

I am not sure about the OP, but IVF for us was much more cost effective because our insurance paid for it. Not a great justification, but it is one we factored in at that time.

And as I said, I am dead set against IVF and would not recommend it. However, I will cease thanking God profusely for the son we have–imperfections and all.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Hey to everyone on this post…

I have to revrese myself in that part of what i said “give up the embryos”

i don’t know how i missed it…but i thought it was just the ovum (female egg)… It didnt occur to me they were fertilized (lol, even though she said “embryo”.