Can our family still be catholic?

[JackieMom]

I promise you this is absolutely NOT superstition. This is also not above God’s mercy and healing power.

It seems like everyone is so focusing on the practicalities here and forgetting that this is BASIC church teaching! The fall of adam and even created spiritual wounds-- that haunt us and manifest themselves to this day. It’s in the generational line.

Any participation in sin at all creates spiritual wounds for us, for those around us. Otherwise the most private personal sin wouldn’t be a sin because it doesn’t appear to do any damage.

I agree that the participants in sin have spiritual baggage until confession. That seems to have been addressed. To suggest that a child is spiritually damaged because his parents conceived him in an unnatural way does seem superstitious, and not in line with Catholic teaching.

 

[agapewolf]

I agree that the participants in sin have spiritual baggage until confession. That seems to have been addressed. To suggest that a child is spiritually damaged because his parents conceived him in an unnatural way does seem superstitious, and not in line with Catholic teaching.

This doesn’t address anything I just said.

It is in line with teaching. Again, I bring Adam and Eve here. If it werent’ true, none of us would have any physical maladies – because Adam and Eve’s sin wouldn’t do us any damage.

The soul is not trapped in the body… the body manifests the soul. Emotional/physical maladies are manifesting something deeper. There are roots to our woundedness…perhaps from our own sinfulness, perhaps from our parents.
There are demons that attach themselves to our family line when invited in-- this is most definitely part of the belief of Catholic teaching.

Again, you can find more info at the TOB healing center in Tallahassee.

 

[90Domer]

I agree that the participants in sin have spiritual baggage until confession. That seems to have been addressed. To suggest that a child is spiritually damaged because his parents conceived him in an unnatural way does seem superstitious, and not in line with Catholic teaching.

Agape, can you tell me what class you took at the TOB Healing Center where this was addressed? Also, where there any other types of people who were spiritually injured, or just IVF babies?

 

[90Domer]

This doesn’t address anything I just said.

It is in line with teaching. Again, I bring Adam and Eve here. If it werent’ true, none of us would have any physical maladies – because Adam and Eve’s sin wouldn’t do us any damage.

The soul is not trapped in the body… the body manifests the soul. Emotional/physical maladies are manifesting something deeper. There are roots to our woundedness…perhaps from our own sinfulness, perhaps from our parents.
There are demons that attach themselves to our family line when invited in-- this is most definitely part of the belief of Catholic teaching.

Again, you can find more info at the TOB healing center in Tallahassee.

I looked on their website, and all it does is advertise its classes, states its mission and solicits donations. It sounds more like a Catholic based counseling center, because it is run by a Ph.D. named Bob Schuchts, who is a marriage and family therapist. Is what you learned there (I thought you said you took a course) his interpretation or extension of how the fall of Adam and Eve manifests itself in IVF? Because my husband looked on Logos (he has most of the Catholic reference material) and there is no doctrine or dogma that say explicitly that IVF spiritually wounds the child.

Seriously, some of this stuff really sounds “out there” and functions more as a scare tactic. He may have his bishop’s approval that his theory is not inconsistent with Catholic theology, but it remains just that–a theory. Once again, one is nt bound to believe it and it certainly is not quantifiable.

 

[JackieMom]

This doesn’t address anything I just said.

It is in line with teaching. Again, I bring Adam and Eve here. If it werent’ true, none of us would have any physical maladies – because Adam and Eve’s sin wouldn’t do us any damage.

The soul is not trapped in the body… the body manifests the soul. Emotional/physical maladies are manifesting something deeper. There are roots to our woundedness…perhaps from our own sinfulness, perhaps from our parents.
There are demons that attach themselves to our family line when invited in-- this is most definitely part of the belief of Catholic teaching.

Again, you can find more info at the TOB healing center in Tallahassee.

No. Catholics do not believe in “generational healing.” We believe that baptism frees the infant of any sins that he may come into the world with. Exorcisms are performed at the baptism, too. Do you doubt the power of the sacrament of baptism?

 

[90Domer]

No. Catholics do not believe in “generational healing.” We believe that baptism frees the infant of any sins that he may come into the world with. Exorcisms are performed at the baptism, too. Do you doubt the power of the sacrament of baptism?

My husband thought the same thing. Thanks Jackie…I didn’t know it had a name.

 

[90Domer]

It’s not melodramatic, and you’re not getting at the same thing I am.

If you want to look into it, you can contact TOB healing center in Tallahassee, FL.

I took the class by them at the TOB institute: Sexual healing and redemption. Every thing we experience, from the very basic inherent conception, to traumas, intended and not-- down to even a parent being gone for a month during our infancy (for good reason, such as caring for a relative), we internalize and are wounded by.

The very reason that IVF is sinful IS BECAUSE of the wounds sustained in the child due to not being conceived by the marital act. Our souls are not trapped in the body, the body manifests the soul-- so what we do with the body effects the soul, and vice versa.

Ok, I did call the TOB Healing Institute to in quite about this. And in re-reading this thread, I had these two additional questions:

1. Why would an infant be wounded by a parent being gone for a month to care for a sick relative. This seems like a prime way to pass much unnecessary guilt to the parents. By the same extension, would an infant be wounded every time mom or dad take a trip by themselves or a business trip?
2. Would the developing child (the embryo) be damaged because the first three days of life he/she was growing in an incubator as opposed to a womb?

As I said, I am waiting for a call back, but the stuff you are posting sounds a lot like fear mongering. Please carefully consider the impact your posts are having. The end may not justify the means.

 

[agapewolf]

No. Catholics do not believe in “generational healing.” We believe that baptism frees the infant of any sins that he may come into the world with. Exorcisms are performed at the baptism, too. Do you doubt the power of the sacrament of baptism?

Wrong…on several ways.

First, no need to be nasty. Of course I believe in baptism. baptism does NOT rid someone of physical deformities, does it? It doesn’t necessarily heal consequences.

and the church does believe in generational healing.

 

[agapewolf]

Agape, can you tell me what class you took at the TOB Healing Center where this was addressed? Also, where there any other types of people who were spiritually injured, or just IVF babies?

OK, you’re going to have to read what I’ve already typed several times. I’ve addresses this already. It’s not specific to IVF, IVF, is just ONE of the millions of sins that can wound.

 

[JackieMom]

Wrong…on several ways.

First, no need to be nasty. Of course I believe in baptism. baptism does NOT rid someone of physical deformities, does it? It doesn’t heal consequences.

and the church does believe in generational healing.

How on Earth was I being nasty? And now we’re talking about deformities? I thought we were talking about “spiritual damage caused by one’s unnatural conception.”

There is not one word about “generational healing” on the CCC. It’s not a Catholic practice or belief. Some fringe groups may have started to practice this kind of “healing” but it is not a mainstream Catholic teaching. It is derived from a Protestant belief regarding family curses and sins being passed down from one generation to the next.

There is NO evidence or Catholic teaching that indicates in vitro babies are spiritually damaged by the nature of their conception. The perpetrators of the sin? Sure. But a baby is not “cursed” because his parents sinned. There may be practical consequences of the sin - i.e. parents who feel overwhelming guilt and thus treat the child poorly, but there is no evidence that there is intrinsic spiritual damage.

 

[agapewolf]

How on Earth was I being nasty? And now we’re talking about deformities? I thought we were talking about “spiritual damage caused by one’s unnatural conception.”

There is not one word about “generational healing” on the CCC. It’s not a Catholic practice or belief. Some fringe groups may have started to practice this kind of “healing” but it is not a mainstream Catholic teaching. It is derived from a Protestant belief regarding family curses and sins being passed down from one generation to the next.

There is NO evidence or Catholic teaching that indicates in vitro babies are spiritually damaged by the nature of their conception. The perpetrators of the sin? Sure. But a baby is not “cursed” because his parents sinned. There may be practical consequences of the sin - i.e. parents who feel overwhelming guilt and thus treat the child poorly, but there is no evidence that there is intrinsic spiritual damage.

Your nastiness came in the manner you questioned my belief in baptism.

"Now?-- no I’ve been talking for pages about adam and eve and you keep ignoring the points I’m making. You’ve questioned by belief in baptism’s ability to heal-- my simple point, that I’ve been making for pages, is that baptism cleanses the soul of original sin, but does NOT cleanse from consupiscience or the consequences of original sin (such as physical deformities-- imperfections). That is a TANGIBLE way to show it. There are also emotional and spiritual consequences from original sin that are not removed simply do to baptism.

Come on…this is basic church teaching. You are not reading what I write, and trying to find little semantic differences rather than getting the basic concepts here.

Spiritual damage and spiritual warfare don’t often show “evidence”. You’re not going to find “evidence” of it. As I’ve repeated already several times… even the most personal private sin has spiritual damage-- yet you can’t see it.

Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There most certainly is generational issues. this is spiritual warfare-- demons can attach during sinfulness-- curses (a big reason masons are a no no-- they curse their children’s children if breaking an oath). To deny this possibility and ignore it one doesnt’ do themselves any favors.

Look, I’m simply trying to share the knowledge I’ve received here to stop people blowing off the possibility that there can be far greater issues going on than one thinks. The original point was for the OP who wasn’t regretting IVF. People might regret things more if they have knowledge of the bigger issues that are going on that they can’t see.

You can blow it off if you want. Everything might turn out just grand. That’s great. I find it extremely helpful to know where the holes in our heart exist in order to be able to identify posible sources of sin, hurt, and woundedness to call upon God to heal them.

 

[90Domer]

Here is what I found on generational sin/curses:

douglawrence.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/this-weeks-ask-alice-generational-curses/

The RCC does not believe or endorse generational sin. It is not part of the Catholic doctrine. It seems like it is more of an ideology. And since this is an Old Teatament teaching (Exodus, I believe), it does not factor in New Testament teachings.

In reading this thread, I started beating myself up again about my IVF decision which I thought I found peace with. So, I became somewhat obsessed about this concept that seemed to imply that my son would be spiritually wounded if I did not tell him about how he was conceived. As I understand generational curse (as I think that is the more appropriate name), certain sins/vices tend to be repeated in generations (porn, drinking, drugs) with demons who follow generations and use these vices as temptation.

Applied to my case, I guess the demon following my family line uses infertility to temp us to sin (my mom had fertility problems and had unsuccessful results using crude fertility treatments). And one way to combat the demon following your family line is to help the family member understand that this demon uses this vice to tempt you.

So, I prayed and researched. I Googled “Catholic and generational sin.” There was more than ample evidence that the Church does not support this notion. Even though there has been a book written on it and there are pockets of people who teach or preach it, it is nowhere close to becoming a belief in the RCC. And most clergy reject it outright. Nowhere did I read that it is sinful to believe generational curse, but many clergy feel there is more harm that good and that the sacraments of baptism and Pennance take care of any perceived curse.

In my case, this is doing more harm than good because my sleep habits and my health (migraines) were affected the past two nights worrying about this. My husband nearly banned me from this site as he thought I was getting too upset. So, I need to humbly say that, which it has been an educational thread, I will no longer fret over the possible spiritual wounding of my son through IVF.

God bless.

 

[agapewolf]

Here is what I found on generational sin/curses:

douglawrence.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/this-weeks-ask-alice-generational-curses/

So, I became somewhat obsessed about this concept that seemed to imply that my son would be spiritually wounded if I did not tell him about how he was conceived.

God bless.

I NEVER SAID THIS.

I’m glad you are done talking about it, because frankly, so am I. You have twisted just about everything I said, put absolutes on things I’ve said, and changed meanings to things I’ve said.

 

[lizaanne]

Respectfully speaking, I do not think there will be emotional and spiritual wounds because she does not have to share how her son (or subsequent children) was conceived. We are certainly not sharing that intimate detail with our son. No reason for him to know.

I have to strongly disagree with this. There is a VERY good reason for you son to know. If for some reason, even decades from now, medical science discovers that there is some disease or genetic mutation, or some other issue with children conceived during IVF or other such procedures, and your son does not know his own personal medical history, you could very well put his life in jeopardy.

Because you chose this life for him, you at least owe it to him to tell him of his beginning so he can have this information should he ever need it in the future. It is a critical piece of HIS LIFE. The fact that it will be difficult to tell him, or that it could emotionally or spiritually impact him is really just too bad - you put him in this situation, you owe him the truth. You owe him the truth about his own life. Withholding such essential information as how a person was created has to be one of the most significant betrayals I can possibly imagine.

~Liza

 

[Litcrit]

I NEVER SAID THIS.

I’m glad you are done talking about it, because frankly, so am I. You have twisted just about everything I said, put absolutes on things I’ve said, and changed meanings to things I’ve said.

Although this seems to be over, I can’t help noticing just how different the concepts you two discussed were - completely unrelated issues.

Physical consequences of sin are not the same as some sort of a curse or sins migrating from parents to children or even spiritual damage to the child.

If you, for instance, leave your child alone in the crib all day long (I know a mother who did this on advice from a midwife ) and later realize this was wrong and repent (the mother did), the child will still have been affected by this in different ways.

And of course children *are *affected by being left alone by their parents for extended periods of time, even if they are too young to remember it. Children are affected by all sorts of things they don’t remember. We don’t give them enough credit. People used to believe babies didn’t feel pain, so even surgeries were sometimes done on infants without anesthetics. Those same infants often had phobias related to white coats and hospitals when they grew up.

We tend to dehumanize the youngest and most vulnerable of us.

And research has shown that, yes, those first 40 or so hours of life outside of the mother’s body do impact the developing embryos. These effects are not necessarily all negative, and the negative ones aren’t dire, but they’re there. One of them, for instance, is that IVF babies tend to be less cautious and careful, and another that they tend to be slimmer. Both these effects have been attributed to the early environment.

Can’t we find a way to acknowledge that the things that happen and we do have effects without simultaneously inducing eternal non-productive guilt-trips that make people infer someone doesn’t believe in the effects of baptism and confession and whatnot?

My first baby was separated from me for almost ten days because of what I believe was a silly reason (fear of an impending infection). If I’d gone to a different, smaller, more relaxed hospital, they probably wouldn’t have even tested her for this. We have both been seriously affected by this separation. Acknowledging this helps - it doesn’t paralyze us forever.

Raising my voice at my children and once even spanking my daughter out of frustration has impacted us all, even after I have confessed it.

Sometimes we just can’t see the effects of out actions immediately.

 

[Litcrit]

I have to strongly disagree with this. There is a VERY good reason for you son to know. If for some reason, even decades from now, medical science discovers that there is some disease or genetic mutation, or some other issue with children conceived during IVF or other such procedures, and your son does not know his own personal medical history, you could very well put his life in jeopardy.

Because you chose this life for him, you at least owe it to him to tell him of his beginning so he can have this information should he ever need it in the future. It is a critical piece of HIS LIFE. The fact that it will be difficult to tell him, or that it could emotionally or spiritually impact him is really just too bad - you put him in this situation, you owe him the truth. You owe him the truth about his own life. Withholding such essential information as how a person was created has to be one of the most significant betrayals I can possibly imagine.

~Liza

I couldn’t agree more.

This is somewhat similar to the situation of donor conceived children and children adopted in infancy - just because they don’t know their history doesn’t mean it won’t crucially impact them, often even more so *if *they don’t know all of it.

 

[agapewolf]

Although this seems to be over, I can’t help noticing just how different the concepts you two discussed were - completely unrelated issues.

Physical consequences of sin are not the same as some sort of a curse or sins migrating from parents to children or even spiritual damage to the child.

If you, for instance, leave your child alone in the crib all day long (I know a mother who did this on advice from a midwife ) and later realize this was wrong and repent (the mother did), the child will still have been affected by this in different ways.

And of course children *are *affected by being left alone by their parents for extended periods of time, even if they are too young to remember it. Children are affected by all sorts of things they don’t remember. We don’t give them enough credit. People used to believe babies didn’t feel pain, so even surgeries were sometimes done on infants without anesthetics. Those same infants often had phobias related to white coats and hospitals when they grew up.

We tend to dehumanize the youngest and most vulnerable of us.

And research has shown that, yes, those first 40 or so hours of life outside of the mother’s body do impact the developing embryos. These effects are not necessarily all negative, and the negative ones aren’t dire, but they’re there. One of them, for instance, is that IVF babies tend to be less cautious and careful, and another that they tend to be slimmer. Both these effects have been attributed to the early environment.

Can’t we find a way to acknowledge that the things that happen and we do have effects without simultaneously inducing eternal non-productive guilt-trips that make people infer someone doesn’t believe in the effects of baptism and confession and whatnot?

My first baby was separated from me for almost ten days because of what I believe was a silly reason (fear of an impending infection). If I’d gone to a different, smaller, more relaxed hospital, they probably wouldn’t have even tested her for this. We have both been seriously affected by this separation. Acknowledging this helps - it doesn’t paralyze us forever.

Raising my voice at my children and once even spanking my daughter out of frustration has impacted us all, even after I have confessed it.

Sometimes we just can’t see the effects of out actions immediately.

Thank you, I appreciate this.

But I never laid a guilt trip or said anything was unredeemable. or made any sort of judgement of the person who did cause it in the first place. The problem was there was a complete write off of the concepts and denial that any problem could even exist at all.

 

[Litcrit]

Thank you, I appreciate this.

But I never laid a guilt trip or said anything was unredeemable. or made any sort of judgement of the person who did cause it in the first place. The problem was there was a complete write off of the concepts and denial that any problem could even exist at all.

I don’t think you did anything of the sort. I hope I didn’t seem to imply you did.

 

[Litcrit]

There are so many examples of our sins affecting our children, I can’t help adding:

Say a woman gets pregnant under really bad circumstances and thinks about abortion. She has bad, violent, angry thoughts for her child. Lots of stress and anger throughout. She carries the pregnancy to term and keeps the baby, confessing her thoughts.

The baby will still be affected. No need for the mother to beat herself up or dwell on this, just acknowledge it, pray and love the child now. Just not deny it.

 

[JackieMom]

There are so many examples of our sins affecting our children, I can’t help adding:

Say a woman gets pregnant under really bad circumstances and thinks about abortion. She has bad, violent, angry thoughts for her child. Lots of stress and anger throughout. She carries the pregnancy to term and keeps the baby, confessing her thoughts.

The baby will still be affected. No need for the mother to beat herself up or dwell on this, just acknowledge it, pray and love the child now. Just not deny it.

I think it could be true that an extremely stressful pregnancy could cause changes in the fetus. And yes, leaving an infant to cry for hours has shown to be detrimental to attachment and development. Those are both physical, tangible problems that can be diagnosed.

I do not think there is a Church teaching that says there is some kind of unseen spiritual damage done to babies conceived via IVF. That might be your opinion or suspicion, but since it is a) not Church teaching and b) there is no evidence of it, we cannot tell parents that children who are conceived this way have damaged souls.

The thing is - the people who committed the sin have the damaged souls. The people around them may experience physical and psychological fallout. Their souls are fine. You can harm your kids by sinning. But your sin does not impart some kind of stain on their eternal souls.