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CMatt25
Guest
Thank you Serap but the last I checked I still have 2 cheeks.
I’ll PM you.
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I’ll PM you.
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PRmerger
Guest
You may have 2 cheeks, but the rest of us have 4.Thank you Serap but the last I checked I still have 2 cheeks.
Get it?
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PRmerger
Guest
So here’s the thing, Rence. The ONLY way you know what God proposed, revealed, taught, desires, is through the Church.
That is, the ONLY way you would know that God is love is because…
the Church told you.
The ONLY way you would know that God desires for you call him Father is because…
the Church told you.
So, if it’s this Church that tells you that we must forgive our neighbors, and you agree with that teaching, what standard is it that you decide that another teaching–like you cannot divorce and re-marry–is a mistake/misinterpretation…
except if you use the Almighty Self as your canon?
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CMatt25
Guest
Yes PR. Jesus said when slapped on the right to turn the left one but I believe you reminded me of 4 once before.You may have 2 cheeks, but the rest of us have 4.
Get it?
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PRmerger
Guest
Exactly my point.
Rather than conforming their truth to that which is God’s…and what Believer could doubt that God would have something very different to say than what would be “in line with our own” views–they will find a church that has fit their own tastes.
(Until this church teaches something that makes them squirm and asks that they change their lives to conform to God. Then they’ll leave to find *another *“more compassionate religion whose teachings are more in line with their own.”)
Thus, if someone has not a single thing that she believes God has declared that disagrees with her own image/likeness…then the logical conclusion is that she has created a false god. One that conforms to one’s own palate.
I thought you said that I’m allowed to make my own proclamations?
As do I.
Just like I feel badly for the guy who’s late for a meeting and wants to run the red lights to get there. But I’m certainly not going to tell him to go right ahead and break the law. It’s simply too dangerous.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed I did.Yes PR. Jesus said when slapped on the right to turn the left one but I believe you reminded me of 4 once before.
I like my jokes. As my family likes to remind me often, “You already made that quip last time.”
Incidentally, you do seem to have a fascination with that teaching of Christ.
(Which, BTW, you would only know was proclaimed by Christ because of this “flawed” Church. Did she get it right this time? Did Jesus really say this or is this one of the time she erred?
)
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Rence
Guest
The Church tells us a lot of things. One thing might be especially easy for one to understand and accept, while the same thing might be a bit more difficult for another to accept. Everyone is different. Like, some may have no difficulty at all with such teachings as the Trinity, Transubstatiation, the Immaculate Conception, Indulgences – or the filioque even. While another person might find say, Indulgences, very difficult to accept. You can’t pound that teaching into a person. They either understand and/or accept it or they don’t. It might take some time for them to understand and accept it…or they may never will.
So if it’s this Church that tells you we must forgive our neighbors, one set of persons might agree with that teaching, but another set of persons might have the neighbors from hell and have trouble accepting that teaching, but they trust the Church in other teachings because they can understand and accept those teachings.
I think it would be very rare for two people to share the same thoughts, values and beliefs about the same topic that the Church teaches, especially those topics that affect our lives more than others, because we’re all different, and we’re all in different stages of development spiritually. Spirituality is a lifelong journey and I don’t find it’s something that can be forced or rushed. Some people might accept each and every sentence coming from the Church without question and without another thought. Others aren’t like that and have questions that need answers that make sense.
God knows this. He made us this way. Otherwise we would be the same on the day we are born as the day we die, with no growth or development or anything different on all the days between. If God wanted drones and robots, he would have populated the world with drones and robots. But he didn’t. He gave us the capacity to think and use our conscience rather than follow a leader blindly for each and every thing under the sun.
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PRmerger
Guest
Dislike! To be sure!
Except, in your paradigm, if this is what the priest in his conscience felt was right, and he loved her, why couldn’t he do that? He’s an adult, she’s an adult. They love each other, yes? You don’t want him to be miserable as a celibate priest. Why no compassion for him?
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Rence
Guest
Well, obviously a great deal of Believers would think (and do think) that God would have something very different to say than what the Church says, otherwise there would be no Jews, no Lutherans, no Baptists, no Orthodox, etc. But there are…very many.
Yes. That’s true. If some teaching makes someone squirm why would they want to “conform” to the teachings of that particular religion. I can understand changing their lives to conform to God, but to change so that they’re squirming? If it’s that distasteful, why bother? If it’s that distasteful, it can’t be something that they believe to be true. I can’t imagine having to subject myself to something so awful that it makes me squirm, but to each his/her own.
Sure you canThus, if someone has not a single thing that she believes God has declared that disagrees with her own image/likeness…then the logical conclusion is that she has created a false god. One that conforms to one’s own palate.
I thought you said that I’m allowed to make my own proclamations?
I just disagree with you I agree it’s dangerous to speed. For sure. But I don’t think it’s dangerous for someone to disagree with a particular teaching of the Church that makes them so uncomfortable that they squirm. If it’s that bad, something’s wrong.Just like I feel badly for the guy who’s late for a meeting and wants to run the red lights to get there. But I’m certainly not going to tell him to go right ahead and break the law. It’s simply too dangerous.
Thankfully, nothing the Church teaches is that bad for me that it would make me squirm. Of course, some things have come close, but not that far as to make me squirm. If it was that bad, I couldn’t be Catholic anymore.
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Rence
Guest
Because he, as a priest, is held to a higher standard. Being ordained and taking a vow of celibacy was his own choice. No one forced him. In addition, adultery is forbidden in all cultures and all religions. So it’s hardly unique to the Catholic religion like some other teachings. And, not only did he take a vow of celibacy (I don’t recall taking a vow of anything actually), but he was in the position of marriage counselor. Catholic or Jewish or Muslim or Protestant, it was unprofessional and unethical. And in all religions and cultures, it was immoral.
And I do have compassion for him. The poor little dude was divorced and out on his ear in just a few years. Replaced by a dog. Poor thing…
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CMatt25
Guest
Eloquent and beautifully said :clapping:
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PRmerger
Guest
Heh. 'Tis a strange form of Christianity that you follow, to be sure, Rence. Palatable and warm and fuzzy without any squirming.
When Christ told his disciples to eat his flesh, I imagine they squirmed a bit at the thought of that…
When Stephen was being stoned for his beliefs, I suppose he squirmed at the thought…
When the apostles and martyrs followed Christ to the cross, I bet they squirmed a bit in anticipation, yes?
As a priest once said (paraphrasing): if anyone preaches Easter Sunday without the Squirmy Cross of Good Friday, run away, for 'tis a false Gospel he is preaching.
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PRmerger
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What could be higher than “following his conscience”?
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Rence
Guest
Well, I wouldn’t say palatable and warm and fuzzy all the time…but I definitely don’t need to be squriming, that’s for sure. There are a few things I disagree with, and some that disturb me quite a bit, but they don’t make me that repulsed that I squirm…at least not yet.Heh. 'Tis a strange form of Christianity that you follow, to be sure, Rence. Palatable and warm and fuzzy without any squirming.
I highly doubt it. It’s not like he cut off his fingers and drained them into a cup. He blessed and broke bread, and blessed wine. The first Transubstatiation was hardly something to squirm about. But I imagine some folks might be grossed out about it…maybe that’s the stumbling block that is preventing some from being Catholic.
And quite a few others as well…otherwise everyone would have been stoned and all Catholics would have been exterminated. But we know that didn’t happen. So obviously a few squirmed a bit and were able to hide and reproduce and multiply. And it’s a good thing they squirmed a bit and ran, otherwise, there would be no underground movement and therefore, no more Catholics.
Again, quite a few others as well…otherwise everyone would have been stoned and all Catholics would have been exterminated. But we know that didn’t happen. So obviously a few squirmed a bit and were able to hide and reproduce and multiply.
Uhm, okay?
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Rence
Guest
I don’t know, I didn’t bother asking him.What could be higher than “following his conscience”?
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PRmerger
Guest
God wants us to be holy. Happiness ensues after holiness and conforming ourselves to the moral law. No one is happy being in sin. (Of course, I don’t know if this guy was sinning or not. Just sayin’…)
This is quite interesting. I hope you will be honest with me here–and I have no reason to think you wouldn’t be, of course.
You can propose that he has NOT created a god in his image.
Would you have given me the same freedom to propose that he HAD created a god in his image? Or would you have objected to my proposal on the grounds that I was judging?
My feeling is that you would have objected. But, I dunno. Maybe you wouldn’t have.
But I hope you understand my bemusement. You can declare Someone is Not-X. But if I were to say: This Someone is X, I wouldn’t have that same freedom?
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PRmerger
Guest
Ah. So, in principle, one must always follow his conscience–that’s the paradigm you’ve professed all through your posts on the CAFS–unless he is a priest. Then he has a different (read: higher) standard?
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PRmerger
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Actually, the Scriptures say that so many squirmed when he said to eat his flesh that they left. Read John 6. (And then they went to find a more compassionate church.
)
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Rence
Guest
Yes. Because he is the one who entered the priesthood, and did so of his own free will.Ah. So, in principle, one must always follow his conscience–that’s the paradigm you’ve professed all through your posts on the CAFS–unless he is a priest. Then he has a different (read: higher) standard?
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Rence
Guest
There ya go! the first protestantsActually, the Scriptures say that so many squirmed when he said to eat his flesh that they left. Read John 6. (And then they went to find a more compassionate church.
But I thought only his closest disciples and apostles were at the last supper, and I don’t remember anyone leaving except Judas.
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