Can Protestants celebrate the Ordinary Form Mass?

[3335]

Ok. But they call themselves Catholics.

 

[Titivillus]

Concur for the most part.

1. They may use leavened bread and grape juice or non-grape wine. Not valid matter.

Leavened bread is not invalid matter.

 

[tuffsmurf]

While your first point is (to the extent of my rather limited knowledge) true when it comes to American protestants, the apposite is true of protestants in Europe, where lutherans and anglicans are the largest denominations.

 

[po18guy]

East or west?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

East or west?

Technically Protestants wouldn’t be bound by this as they are out of Church so for them, leavened bread is not invalid matter as much as unleavened bread is not invalid matter for Armenians (who are Eastern).

the liturgy was created by Protestant in 2nd Vatican council

It’s actually not that difficult to debunk the claim. The date when the Protestants entered the scene was 1966. But we have the drafts of the new Mass from the group charged with that task. If you look earlier, as early as 1964, or even to the document presented to the Fathers who were voting on Sacrosanctum Concilium, many of the most debated changes attributed to the Protestants are already forseen or listed. The thing was that except for a couple of these documents, until relatively late in the last century, the schemas were not open to public view and no one really bothered to go and look them up.

Weird thing however is that Pauline Missal indeed credited six Protestant Ministers. That gave rise to many myths…

 

[whatistrue]

Ok. But they call themselves Catholics.

Would a three-legged dog have four legs if you called a tail a leg? No. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. Some non-Catholic group calling itself Catholic doesn’t make it Catholic.

 

[3335]

Ok. Thanks for answering.

 

[commenter]

Ok. But they call themselves Catholics.

There’s no copywrite on the word “Catholic”.

Btw there’s a fundamentalist group called “Mission to Catholics”. There’s also an organization called “Catholics for Choice” meaning abortion.

There are individuals who are baptized Catholics in all three of these very different organizations. But none of these organizations is a Catholic ministry as defined by the Church, in union with its bishop Ordinary.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But they call themselves Catholics.

There are all kinds of non-Catholic churches and groups that “call themselves Catholic”. What churches or groups call themselves means nothing. If they are not in communion with the Church then they can call themselves Catholic all day and it doesn’t make them Catholic. It also makes them untruthful.

There’s a group on Facebook called “Catholic Answers” that’s actually an anti-Catholic group that bashes the Church.

 

[3335]

Thanks for answering. But what about SSPX and SSPV.

 

[Fauken]

They’re both Catholic insofar as they believe in Catholic truths and have valid Sacraments. However, the SSPX is canonically irregular, and the SSPV are sedevacantist. The SSPX do though acknowledge Pope Francis as the valid and legitimate Pope.

 

[3335]

Ok . Thanks for answering.

 

[po18guy]

I “hope” this clarifies: Leavened bread is normal in the Eastern Rite and (IIRC) the Orthodox. In the Ltin (Roman) Rite, leavened bread is illicit matter, but technically valid, as I understand it.

Anyway, back to the OP, there is a huge chasm between what the “reformers” began and the Church which Christ founded. In fact, most mainline Protestants today would not recognize the communities established by their own founders in ther past 500 years - so much have they changed.

 

[Kei]

Pray for your interlocutors, but I agree you are hanging with the wrong crowd. You’re being fed a bunch of hooey.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Protestants can do whatever they like in their own churches. I have certainly heard of Protestants who use both the Mass of Paul VI and the Tridentine Rite. These are obviously not valid Masses. These would generally be the likes of High Church Episcopalians, who do not really see themselves as Protestants. Most “real” Protestants would of course have serious theological problems with using any Catholic liturgies.

First of all, I love your screen name. Matthew 16:18 is one of the few Scripture verses I can recite from heart in Latin. (I am no Latin scholar whatsoever, far from it.)

I once visited a non-denominational chapel (solely for private prayer and meditation, not for public worship) at a beach resort community in Florida, and their rite of worship, according to service books printed expressly for the chapel, was virtually identical to the 1969+ vernacular Catholic missal. (I would assume that they omitted prayers for the local Catholic bishop and the Holy Father, but that’s been almost 30 years ago, I don’t recall all the details.) I cannot discount the idea that the celebrant was a renegade Catholic priest who sought an ecumenical ministry, but the impression I got, was that it was an attempt to offer a “broad church” liturgy that both Catholics and more liturgical mainline Christians would find palatable. (Let me be abundantly clear that Catholics are not to participate in such “masses” unless there is some pressing social reason, such as a wedding or funeral, and even then could not receive an invalid “eucharist”.)

 

[Hodos]

Can you please tell me your opinion on this point . If they can , Why ?
If they can’t then what the reasons for it ?

So I do not have a Roman Catholic hymnal in my hand, so I cannot speak to specifics of this form of the mass. That being said, Lutheran doctrine says this about celebrating the mass:

Augsburg Confession, Article XXIV:

Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved, save the parts that are sung in Latin are interspersed here and there with German hymns, which have been added to teach the people.

So from our perspective we have always celebrated the Mass. I believe that the Ordinary Form is very much consistent with our liturgical form. I would have to view the printed version though to verify if there is anything that is not consistent with our doctrine in the specific parts of the liturgy. I think the confession and absolution and the eucharistic prayers may differ slightly and might present some sticking points.

 

[commenter]

The word "Mass, "isn’t copyrighted. Neither is the word Catholic. Thus anyone can Celebrate Mass. So what? The Church wouldn’t consider it a valid Mass.

I think the point the Fatima Center was likely trying to make is that there were Protestants at V2, and/or the council was trying too hard to appear ecumenical.

But then Protestants were invited to Trent. That council also was influenced by what the Protestants were saying. So what? That doesn’t mean the TLM is therefore void.

Keep in mind the Document on the Liturgy incorporated much research in previous decades under Catholic auspices. You may not agree with how it was implemented, Liturgical abuses that were common for awhile, or restriction on the EF, but those are not part of the Council agenda or Protestant influence.

The Fatima Center is not in union with the Fatima apostolate in general, including Fatima shrine in Portugal.

 

[dochawk]

In the Ltin (Roman) Rite, leavened bread is illicit matter, but technically valid, as I understand it.

it had better be valid; it was used until about midway through the 10th century!

(I posted the exact year when it was mandated once or tice in over threads, but can’t recall a the moment.)

 

[otjm]

Your friend lied to you (likely unknowingly).

This urban myth has been around since not long after Vatican 2. At Vatican 2, select Protestants, largely theologians, were invited to attend the sessions as observers. There have been, since that time, Catholics who have more gumption than knowledge or common sense who are of the opinion that those Protestants managed to pull the wool over the eyes of all 2,151 bishops who were in attendance when Sacrosanctum Concilium was crafted, and somehow perverted and/or by devious means undermined the Mass.

Those who follow that line of conspiracy thought have somewhere between zero and negative 5 understanding of liturgy, liturgical history, and the mind of the Church.

Which is another way of saying that tin foil hats are still in style with certain people.

Ok. But they call themselves Catholics.

Anyone can say they are Catholic. There is a rogue group of women who self-identify as Catholic who claim they have been ordained.

If they were baptized Catholic then they are Catholic; but they are not priests. Or priestesses.

The Fatima Center because it holds itself out as a Catholic organization needs the approval of its bishop - which it does not have, and is likely to never have as long as they stay on the same path they have been on.

 

[3335]

Ok, thanks.