Can Ron Paul win?

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I don’t think I’m mising the point.

smndtupidisaftr (and Paul) have suggested that US foriegn policy provoked 9/11, due to our airbase on “The Land of the Two Mosques” and our support of Israel.

My argument is, we had a reason to be there (Saddam had 300,000 troops on the Saudi border, we have a vested interest in Saudi oil, the recognized government asked to be there), so why would we set our foriegn policy around what a few guys hanging out in a cave want?
Islamist attacked Sweden (contrary to Paul’s belief), and al Qaeda released a fatwa calling for the murder of the “Muhammed Cartoonists”. Are we to change our laws regarding cartoonist (like South Park) to keep from angering them? Change our laws to prevent pastors from burning Korans?

In short, if we are changing our foriegn policy since we “provoked” 9/11, how much of our domestic policy will we have to change to keep from “provoking” them again?

Its a serious question, and I haven’t seen anyone address it.
This of course is the serious question.
Is it really Ron Paul’s position that America ought to let Islamist terrorists dictate American foreign policy?!!!
And if not, then how is he not doing just exactly that by saying that America is engaged in provocation, and this is why many or most Muslims legitimately hate America?

That is the message that I am receiving from an overall reading of the support Ron Paul has here in this forum.

I can fully understand how many Americans would be absolutely exasperated at America coming to the rescue of an obnoxious little country like Saudi Arabia and/or Kuwait in the first place. And whether or not America should enter into any given war is a matter open to serious debate.
But it is when the rhetoric goes over the top, and American policy is simplistically portrayed as war-mongering and unjustifiable interference and meddling that Ron Paul and his supporters take on the air of a Jeremiah Wright and his ilk.

Middle East oil is vital not just to an America which has not developed the foresight to follow a coherent energy policy on their own, but it is vital to the world. It is preposterous to state that American interests are in no way involved here, or to think that America can willy-nilly abandon the strategic alliances it has forged without their being consequences for America herself.

There is definitely a case to be made that America is over-extended in terms of what can be afforded now, and there is definitely room for rational debate as to what American policy ought to be. There is definitely room for a reassessment of the neocon/neoliberal policy of Bush as to whether pursuing a policy of democratization in a region where the majority of the people will vote Islamist is the right one, and to analyze and critique the results of that policy.

But the question remains, what is the difference between absolute non-inteventionism and isolationism, and how would remaining aloof to that volatile region that supplies the world’s energy in America’s or anybodies interests?

Ron Paul and his followers really need to be reminded that ,no, America has not followed the policy that it has thus far because Michele Bachmann and her ilk hate Muslims, or that American government is run by warmongers who wring their hands in glee with every opportunity that comes along where Muslims can be bombed.

America is not an island unto itself, but the main cog that drives the world economy. That is what at stake if and when the very real enemies of America get the upper hand.

Can we really expect China, or Russia, or Iran, to simply withdraw from the world stage, and follow policies in Americas interests if America decides to follow Ron Paul’s advise and cut all ties and entanglements with its allies, strategic or otherwise?

Would it be a good thing for Americans if Saudi exchanged the alliance it has with America and opts to develop the same one with fellow-oil producer Russia, and make China its main business partner?

American withdrawal will most certainly create a vacuum and who knows what will be the nature of the demons who rush in to provide former allies with the security that America is no longer willing to provide?

And that is something that I don’t see Ron Paul or his followers addressing much. Theirs is a fantasy world, from my point of view, where no threat is real, and the future will be rosy,if only America stops meddling and interfering in other people’s affairs.
 
This of course is the serious question.
Is it really Ron Paul’s position that America ought to let Islamist terrorists dictate American foreign policy?!!!
And if not, then how is he not doing just exactly that by saying that America is engaged in provocation, and this is why many or most Muslims legitimately hate America?

That is the message that I am receiving from an overall reading of the support Ron Paul has here in this forum.

I can fully understand how many Americans would be absolutely exasperated at America coming to the rescue of an obnoxious little country like Saudi Arabia and/or Kuwait in the first place. And whether or not America should enter into any given war is a matter open to serious debate.
But it is when the rhetoric goes over the top, and American policy is simplistically portrayed as war-mongering and unjustifiable interference and meddling that Ron Paul and his supporters take on the air of a Jeremiah Wright and his ilk.

Middle East oil is vital not just to an America which has not developed the foresight to follow a coherent energy policy on their own, but it is vital to the world. It is preposterous to state that American interests are in no way involved here, or to think that America can willy-nilly abandon the strategic alliances it has forged without their being consequences for America herself.

There is definitely a case to be made that America is over-extended in terms of what can be afforded now, and there is definitely room for rational debate as to what American policy ought to be. There is definitely room for a reassessment of the neocon/neoliberal policy of Bush as to whether pursuing a policy of democratization in a region where the majority of the people will vote Islamist is the right one, and to analyze and critique the results of that policy.

But the question remains, what is the difference between absolute non-inteventionism and isolationism, and how would remaining aloof to that volatile region that supplies the world’s energy in America’s or anybodies interests?

Ron Paul and his followers really need to be reminded that ,no, America has not followed the policy that it has thus far because Michele Bachmann and her ilk hate Muslims, or that American government is run by warmongers who wring their hands in glee with every opportunity that comes along where Muslims can be bombed.

America is not an island unto itself, but the main cog that drives the world economy. That is what at stake if and when the very real enemies of America get the upper hand.

Can we really expect China, or Russia, or Iran, to simply withdraw from the world stage, and follow policies in Americas interests if America decides to follow Ron Paul’s advise and cut all ties and entanglements with its allies, strategic or otherwise?

Would it be a good thing for Americans if Saudi exchanged the alliance it has with America and opts to develop the same one with fellow-oil producer Russia, and make China its main business partner?

American withdrawal will most certainly create a vacuum and who knows what will be the nature of the demons who rush in to provide former allies with the security that America is no longer willing to provide?

And that is something that I don’t see Ron Paul or his followers addressing much. Theirs is a fantasy world, from my point of view, where no threat is real, and the future will be rosy,if only America stops meddling and interfering in other people’s affairs.
Why don’t they give him a discussion forum where he can express his message better, like the Cain/Gingrich one.
 
This isn’t true at all. I despise Obama’s politics but am also in strong disagreement with the mainstream GOP. Should I vote against my values just so Obama loses?
NO!

Write in a candidate if nothing else. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil, you need not feel compelled to vote for anyone YOU don’t feel comfortable voting for despite what someone on the internet may tell you to the contrary. Obama is bad, among the worst Presidents America has ever seen, but don’t you dare comprimise yourself for the sake of a bad-but-not-as-bad-as-Obama candidate.

Truly, what would you (or anyone else reading this) think if four years from now we have a Republican in office who is worse than Obama? Yes it can happen all to easily, Bush 43 and Hoover come to mind. No President is really that great, none has been in my lifetime, they’ve all been overly polished turds that one side favors and another side loathes.

I look at it from a matter of faith and ask myself, “which candidate WOULD ACTUALLY do any single thing that would enhance my faith?” This time around that candidate is Ron Paul who is our best hope for making abortion illegal not giving some lip service answer like any other GOP candidate or outright promoting abortion like Obama has always done.
 
NO!

Write in a candidate if nothing else. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil, you need not feel compelled to vote for anyone YOU don’t feel comfortable voting for despite what someone on the internet may tell you to the contrary. Obama is bad, among the worst Presidents America has ever seen, but don’t you dare comprimise yourself for the sake of a bad-but-not-as-bad-as-Obama candidate.

Truly, what would you (or anyone else reading this) think if four years from now we have a Republican in office who is worse than Obama? Yes it can happen all to easily, Bush 43 and Hoover come to mind. No President is really that great, none has been in my lifetime, they’ve all been overly polished turds that one side favors and another side loathes.

I look at it from a matter of faith and ask myself, “which candidate WOULD ACTUALLY do any single thing that would enhance my faith?” This time around that candidate is Ron Paul who is our best hope for making abortion illegal not giving some lip service answer like any other GOP candidate or outright promoting abortion like Obama has always done.
I love your analysis and agree with most of it. I won’t be voting for the GOP, no worries there. In '08 I voted libertarian, so even if I vote third party this time the GOP won’t be losing a vote. If Paul does not get the nomination I will either vote for him (if he runs third party), possibly write him in if he doesn’t, or possibly vote Libertarian.

On a side note: As a loyal Wings fan I strongly dislike your user picture.
 
Yup. No candidate is perfect. We are all fallen.

The arguments usually go like this: well, the Democrats are pro abort, but they are for peace.
The first is the case with Obama, the second obviously is not.

Again: voting a third party is a vote for Obama, as it splits the opposition votes. All of the other Republicans are pro-life. All of them.
 
I love your analysis and **agree with most of it. ** I won’t be voting for the GOP, no worries there. In '08 I voted libertarian, so even if I vote third party this time the GOP won’t be losing a vote. If Paul does not get the nomination I will either vote for him (if he runs third party), possibly write him in if he doesn’t, or possibly vote Libertarian.

On a side note: As a loyal Wings fan I strongly dislike your user picture.
Thank you for NOT agreeing with all of it. I’m hosed as I live in Illinois and we all know who will be getting my state’s electoral votes, that guy who’s entire political career in the state revolved around voting present and being in league with political filth like Rod Blagojevich. Frankly knowing that I’d be hard pressed to not at the very least vote for Ron Paul in whatever applicable fashion just out of spite 😃

PS - I’d be more than happy to see a rubber match in the 2012 Stanley Cup Final and it looks like a very good possibility. Geno needs another Conn Smythe Trophy 😉
 
Thank you for NOT agreeing with all of it. I’m hosed as I live in Illinois and we all know who will be getting my state’s electoral votes, that guy who’s entire political career in the state revolved around voting present and being in league with political filth like Rod Blagojevich. Frankly knowing that I’d be hard pressed to not at the very least vote for Ron Paul in whatever applicable fashion just out of spite 😃

PS - I’d be more than happy to see a rubber match in the 2012 Stanley Cup Final and it looks like a very good possibility. Geno needs another Conn Smythe Trophy 😉
My states electoral vote will likely be going to Obama as well. It isn’t quite as set in stone as Illinois though. I don’t expect Paul to win, but I wonder if he ran as a third party if he might have any chance at capturing a few electoral votes. It has been quite some time since a third party did so.

I would hope Crosby is back in full force by that point. As much as I dislike him as a Wings fan he is great for the league and I’d hate to see him go out that way. These concussions need to end.
 
The argument that we shouldn’t vote third party is weak at most times. People should vote their conscience.

In this case, however, the argument actually favors Ron Paul. If he gets the nomination he will split the Obama vote. I’ve already convinced some “Hope and Change” Obama supporters to vote Republican this year, but only for Paul. Romney and Gingrich will never pull their votes.

If it’s just about beating Obama, and GOPers will vote GOP regardless, then why not support the candidate who will certainly split Obama’s vote?

Peace and God bless!
 
The argument that we shouldn’t vote third party is weak at most times. People should vote their conscience.

In this case, however, the argument actually favors Ron Paul. If he gets the nomination he will split the Obama vote. I’ve already convinced some “Hope and Change” Obama supporters to vote Republican this year, but only for Paul. Romney and Gingrich will never pull their votes.

If it’s just about beating Obama, and GOPers will vote GOP regardless, then why not support the candidate who will certainly split Obama’s vote?

Peace and God bless!
👍

Bingo!
 
nationalreview.com/articles/286259/paul-fringe-frontrunner-rich-lowry
The fight over Ron Paul isn’t a battle for the soul of the Republican Party so much as for its standards. Throughout his career, Paul hasn’t been able to distinguish between fringy cranks and aboveboard purists. He has taken a principled anti-government position and associated it with loons and bigots. It may be the ultimate commentary on the weakness of this Republican field that it hasn’t even been able to produce a respectable out-there libertarian.
The more that Ron Paul is given a serious look, the more that the personal peccadilloes and quirkiness of a Cain or a Gingrich looks like little nothings.

Liberatarianism is a respectable and an essential aspect of any modern conservative movement and liberatarians are very desirable to have under the big umbrella with us. People like Milton Friedman cannot always necessarily be the leaders of the Republican party, in which the practicalities of electability place limits on what is possible. But they need to be consulted as our gurus, guiding the spirit of smaller government and giving us a vision of what would be ideal.

I certainly agree with Lowry now that this is a basic weakness of Republicanism, if Ron Paul is to be face of liberatarianism. Cain and Bachmann at least gave the Tea Party movement respectability, and put the lie to the leftist claims about it. I fear now that Ron Paul is becoming the main focus he is going to do more to destroy that vibrant and positive image by having liberatarianism become associated with “loons and bigots”.
 
Thank you for NOT agreeing with all of it. I’m hosed as I live in Illinois and we all know who will be getting my state’s electoral votes, that guy who’s entire political career in the state revolved around voting present and being in league with political filth like Rod Blagojevich. Frankly knowing that I’d be hard pressed to not at the very least vote for Ron Paul in whatever applicable fashion just out of spite 😃

PS - I’d be more than happy to see a rubber match in the 2012 Stanley Cup Final and it looks like a very good possibility. Geno needs another Conn Smythe Trophy 😉
Its why I moved from the Glorious People’s Republic of Illinois to Missouri. Gas is $0.25 cheaper, my real estate taxes went down $4k a year for a bigger house, I don’t need a FOID card to buy ammo, and I can now conceal carry. 👍

Oh yeah, and my vote counts!!!
 
…But it is when the rhetoric goes over the top, and American policy is simplistically portrayed as war-mongering and unjustifiable interference and meddling that Ron Paul and his supporters take on the air of a Jeremiah Wright and his ilk.

There is definitely a case to be made that America is over-extended in terms of what can be afforded now, and there is definitely room for rational debate as to what American policy ought to be. There is definitely room for a reassessment of the neocon/neoliberal policy of Bush as to whether pursuing a policy of democratization in a region where the majority of the people will vote Islamist is the right one, and to analyze and critique the results of that policy.

Well said.

I can agree with Paul on several issues, but the whole battered-wife syndrome of “I promise I won’t make you hit me again” to al Qaeda is absurd.
 
Well said.

I can agree with Paul on several issues, but the whole battered-wife syndrome of “I promise I won’t make you hit me again” to al Qaeda is absurd.
So why did the CIA report that we may face blowback?
 
So why did the CIA report that we may face blowback?
I guess they didn’t do their homework on Sayyid Qutb and the foundation (al Qaeda means “the base”) of Islamist views.

I’m guessing they also reported that the Bush admin was wringing its hands in glee after 9/11, too?

In a word, its the jahiliyyah. Its why Islamists don’t just target America, but India, the Phillipines, China, Russia, Thailand, etc, etc, etc, as well.
 
I guess they didn’t do their homework on Sayyid Qutb and the foundation (al Qaeda means “the base”) of Islamist views.
I guess they probably have way more intel on the middle east than you and I will ever have.
I’m guessing they also reported that the Bush admin was wringing its hands in glee after 9/11, too?
:confused:
In a word, its the jahiliyyah. Its why Islamists don’t just target America, but India, the Phillipines, China, Russia, Thailand, etc, etc, etc, as well.
I don’t really think I can articulate what I’m trying to say any better. I understand there is a foundation of Muslims that are going to target non-Muslims no matter what and no matter where. The point I’m trying to make is that if our foreign policy is contributing to their numbers then we are only hurting ourselves. A limited foreign policy of limited to no intervention in their internal affairs seems to be the best way to go. If there were 1,000 radical Muslims looking to do harm to America, and our government is going in there for whatever reason(unknown to the American public) and causing their numbers to increase then what the heck are we doing? Would 9/11 have ever even happened had they not increased the numbers of the radical Muslims who hate us?
 
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