Can someone help explain why abortion is much worse than the Iraqi War?

[josephdavid]

However, the count doesn’t really matter.
Even if the numbers were reversed, abortion is still a bigger evil… because of the complete innocence of the victim.

michel

You make some valid points. Thank you.

I have to ask on your last statement with in your post. When you say innocent. Is not a 6 year old who died from being burned to death from WP or conventional bombing, innocent enough?

 

[RitaM]

How many people have died in the Iraqi war?
How many have been soldiers who understand and willingly risk their lives for what they believe is right?

How many people have died from being aborted?
How many of those babies willingly risked their lives for what they believed in?

 

[josephdavid]

How many people have died in the Iraqi war?
How many have been soldiers who understand and willingly risk their lives for what they believe is right?

How many people have died from being aborted?
How many of those babies willingly risked their lives for what they believed in?

So that nills the live’s of those lost in war? Ok

 

[cazayoux]

Please educate me Robert. Where in CCC, Scripture does it say deaths in war is not equal to deaths from abortion?

According to you my evidence with in CCC does not agree with you. So show me where you find in CCC and Scripture that death of civilians in war is not equal to death by abortion?

Have you actually read the bible?
C’moooon… the old testament has much, much war in it.
There are clear examples of justified war in the OT.
As well, we can see God himself giving the death penalty to entire cities (Sodom, Gomorrah).

As for when God gives a body a soul…

**Jer 1:5 **(God talking to Jeremiah)
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you

ABORTION IS MURDER OF A PERSON WITH A SOUL!!!

Euthanasia.
Life is never useless, no matter how sick or old you are.
Sarah and Abraham had children at a very late age (Sarah was in her 90s).
God has use for everyone, no matter how old.

Jesus HEALED the sick, he didn’t speed their death.
… and for those still suffering … well … I’ll let you do the word search for ‘suffering’ in the new testament.
Catholics LOVE our suffering. It draws us closer to Christ.
We use our sufferings, we don’t shrink from it or try to escape it, and definitely not by speeding our death.

Romans 5:3
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance

michel

 

[Ridgerunner]

You make some valid points. Thank you.

I have to ask on your last statement with in your post. When you say innocent. Is not a 6 year old who died from being burned to death from WP or conventional bombing, innocent enough?

So would be a 6 year old who ran in front of my car and I did not have time to stop. The difference is in the intent. If an American soldier was shown to have deliberately killed an innocent, unthreatening 6 year old, he would spend a lifetime in Leavenworth, at minimum. All abortionists always intend the death of the unborn child. But instead of his being punished, the government will now start paying him to do it.

I do not understand why this difference is mysterious.

 

[RitaM]

So that nills the live’s of those lost in war? Ok

Who said that? If an innocent person dies, it’s worse than when someone willingly risks their life for a greater good, but that doesn’t mean that the willing person’s death is unimportant. If a million people die, it’s worse than if 100 die, but that doesn’t mean the 100 were worthless. We’re talking about whether abortion or war are “worse”. It doesn’t mean that if abortion is worse, then war must be OK.

 

[josephdavid]

If a million people die, it’s worse than if 100 die, but that doesn’t mean the 100 were worthless. We’re talking about whether abortion or war are “worse”. It doesn’t mean that if abortion is worse, then war must be OK.

But can you support that with in CCC and Scripture?

 

[RobertLGarrett]

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

If one needed a single reference, this is it.

Abortion is always “the deliberate murder of an innocent person.”

Unless civilians are purposely targeted (as the terrorists do), then war, even the Iraq War, does not involve “the deliberate murder of an innocent person.”

This is why Abortion is much worse than the Iraq War. If you believe that the cause of all deaths is equal, then you can still argue that Abortion is worse based merely on the numbers.

 

[cazayoux]

You make some valid points. Thank you.

I have to ask on your last statement with in your post. When you say innocent. Is not a 6 year old who died from being burned to death from WP or conventional bombing, innocent enough?

Yes. I would absolutely consider a 6 year old innocent enough. The death of this child is tragic.

We can look at every single life (innocent or not) lost in a war and see a very specific creation of God’s.

At some point, we need to do what is right for the community. Going to war to stop Hitler was the absolute right thing to do. It would be ideal to have no civilian lives lost by doing this, but sadly this was not the case. We can look at one civilian life lost in WWII and lament, but it doesn’t change the goal of entering the war in the first place.

ALL life is sacred. If we cannot protect every single life, shouldn’t we protect as many as we can? These are our options when considering war.
What is the tragedy if we DO NOT go to war versus what is the tragedy if we DO go to war.

I’m not saying our current war is justified.
I’m discussing this from a higher level, considering all war … or at least war in general.

michel

 

[RobertLGarrett]

But can you support that with in CCC and Scripture?

The Church apparently doesn’t feel the need to specifically spell out the blatantly obvious. 99.9% of the people realize that 1,000,000 deaths is worse than 1 death…if all things are equal. From a sin standpoint, however, 1,000,000 accidental deaths is not equal to 1 murder.

 

[josephdavid]

Yes. I would absolutely consider a 6 year old innocent enough. The death of this child is tragic.

We can look at every single life lost in a war and see a very specific creation of God’s.

At some point, we need to do what is right for the community. Going to war to stop Hitler was the absolute right thing to do. It would be ideal to have no civilian lives lost by doing this, but sadly this was not the case. We can look at one civilian life lost in WWII and lament, but it doesn’t change the goal of entering the war in the first place.

ALL life is sacred. If we cannot protect every single life, shouldn’t we protect as many as we can? These are our options when considering war.
What is the tragedy if we DO NOT go to war versus what is the tragedy if we DO go to war.

I’m not saying our current war is justified.
I’m discussing this from a higher level, considering all war … or at least war in general.

michel

That is my point on war. In regards to WWII it was justified. However the Iraq War was not. Thus the politicians who OK this war and directed this war have committed a grave sin equal to those who committed abortion or voted for pro-abortion legislation.

 

[RitaM]

But can you support that with in CCC and Scripture?

I’m sorry if it doesn’t make sense, but as a human being, I find it more upsetting that millions of innocent people are intentionally killed than that thousands are killed, some innocent, and some soldiers. Is this not just a matter of logic?

The Church has not ruled on whether this particular war is justified. Even if we all get to heaven and find out that it was not, the perpetrators of the war if they had an intention to promote justice are not as guilty as the perpetrators of abortion.

 

[estesbob]

You make some valid points. Thank you.

I have to ask on your last statement with in your post. When you say innocent. Is not a 6 year old who died from being burned to death from WP or conventional bombing, innocent enough?

Yes BUT the purpose of dropping the bomb was not to kill the 6 year old. With abortion the purpose is alwys to kill the child.

 

[josephdavid]

I’m sorry if it doesn’t make sense, but as a human being, I find it more upsetting that millions of innocent people are intentionally killed than that thousands are killed, some innocent, and some soldiers. Is this not just a matter of logic?

Why would you not find it equally upsetting or do you defend the war in Iraq as moral and just even if Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul and most Bishops did not.

 

[josephdavid]

Yes BUT the purpose of dropping the bomb was not to kill the 6 year old. With abortion the purpose is alwys to kill the child.

What if that type of bomb is technically banned from being used by law? Such as WP

What if these bombs were dropped as a result of war that was started unjustly?

 

[RobertLGarrett]

What if that type of bomb is technically banned from being used by law? Such as WP

What if these bombs were dropped as a result of war that was started unjustly?

In that case, if your premise is accepted, logic would dictate that the cause of deaths is equal, and the other criteria I enumerated (i.e. number of deaths, timeframe) would show that Abortion is still worse.

 

[estesbob]

Why would you not find it equally upsetting or do you defend the war in Iraq as moral and just even if Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul and most Bishops did not.

Becuase the Pope sepcfically said here was no moral eqauivalence between the two. That catholics of good faith could support the War on Iraq and not be at odds with Church teaching.

 

[cazayoux]

That is my point on war. In regards to WWII it was justified. However the Iraq War was not. Thus the politicians who OK this war and directed this war have committed a grave sin equal to those who committed abortion or voted for pro-abortion legislation.

I disagree with equating war in Iraq with abortion.
Do you contend that those that were in power in Iraq were innocent?
Abortion is still worse than the Iraq war.

Please realize that people on both sides of the aisle approved the war.
Are you disappointed with all of Congress, or just the president?

You have shown yourself to be very politically partisan.
You act as if Iraq was a utopia before the bad, bad U.S. of A. went in and started purposefully killing all those peace-loving people.

Honestly. You tell me …
How many people (innocent or not) died per year in Iraq before the U.S. (and others) invaded?
How many people (innocent or not) died per year in Iraq since the U.S. (and others) invaded?

My point is only that you must realize that I can see the argument on both sides. Let’s stick to the facts, though and be sure we have a proper picture to look at.

Iraq was not a nice place to be. It was a place where a soccer player might be executed by his government for making a bad play.
I also see that we may have gone into the war with some misinformation.

michel

 

[estesbob]

What if that type of bomb is technically banned from being used by law? Such as WP

What if these bombs were dropped as a result of war that was started unjustly?

Again the intention was not to kill a child. With abortion it always is.

 

[RitaM]

If a million people are chopped to pieces in a confined area with no means of defending themselves or crying out for mercy or help, I would be more upset than if a thousand people died in military actions. I don’t know how else to explain why the former situation is more upsetting to me. :banghead: I never said I approved of the Iraq war, but if it were up to me to end the war or end abortions, I would end the abortions. It would save a lot more lives and end a manner of killing that is entirely without a shred of positive intention. A war with some elements of injustice is not even close to the injustice of abortion.