Can someone help explain why abortion is much worse than the Iraqi War?

[cazayoux]

Why would you not find it equally upsetting or do you defend the war in Iraq as moral and just even if Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul and most Bishops did not.

I do not defend the war.
But I must point out that all those lost in war were not innocent.

It is a very different story for abortion.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

What if that type of bomb is technically banned from being used by law? Such as WP

What if these bombs were dropped as a result of war that was started unjustly?

Legality is not an issue in this discussion.
Abortion is legal, that doesn’t make it right.

The legality of using a bomb should not be the question.
The morality of using a bomb should be the question.

michel

 

[josephdavid]

Legality is not an issue in this discussion.
Abortion is legal, that doesn’t make it right.

The legality of using a bomb should not be the question.
The morality of using a bomb should be the question.

michel

Nope abortion is such a huge tragedy to the human race to more importantly to God’s creation.

Well if war is justified in defense of a nation but what about using illegal weapons. We have treaties to bind to.

 

[cazayoux]

Nope abortion is such a huge tragedy to the human race to more importantly to God’s creation.

Well if war is justified in defense of a nation but what about using illegal weapons. We have treaties to bind to.

If you don’t trust the powers that be to be moral in deciding to enter war, how can you trust the same people to be moral in deciding to enter into treaties.

The question is morality, not legality.
Sadly, it’s very possible to have a treaty that ties our hands morally.

Even when war IS justified, there is still a great sadness for the lives lost (innocent or not).
Now if we decide that going to war is justified, what is the best (most moral) way to go about it?

We must answer this question in the realm of morality as well.
1 - Obtain the goal of the war.
2 - Do it in a way that minimizes casualties.

That ‘illegal’ weapon might actually be the best way to accomplish 1 and 2.

Gotta run … literally … heading to the gym.

josephdavid … thanks for the discussion.

michel

 

[Ridgerunner]

But can you support that with in CCC and Scripture?

Is the word of the Holy Father good enough? He said the following in 2004 while he was still a cardinal.

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

 

[Ender]

In regards to WWII it was justified. However the Iraq War was not. Thus the politicians who OK this war and directed this war have committed a grave sin equal to those who committed abortion or voted for pro-abortion legislation.

This statement is not correct. The politicians who started this war have committed no sin at all unless they lied about their intentions. I realize that a lot of people like to claim Bush et al did exactly that but in fact both Democrats and Republicans were alike in their condemnation of Hussein and their belief that there were sufficient causes to justify the resumption of hostilities.

As to whether those who direct the war today are committing grave sins you have to ask yourself: if it is such a sin to participate in the war why hasn’t the Church made it clear that participation is a sin? The answer of course is that, contrary to your assertion, the Church has never condemned the war as unjust. If involvement in the war is a sin then the Church is complicit in that sin by not informing the tens of thousands of Catholics who have gone to war. How could the Church endanger the souls of so many of the faithful by remaining silent?

The short answer is that she has taken no position on the morality of the war.

Ender

 

[Ender]

I believe it is licit to say that the killing of the innocent child is a much graver sin, than the death penalty, which is a graver sin than the killing by the father in attempted defense of his child (which is not even sinful…if I understand my Catechism correctly).

I don’t want to send this thread off on a tangent but I do want to correct this particular statement. The death penalty is not a graver sin than that of the father killing in the defense of his child. Neither in fact is any sin at all. Oppose the death penalty if you choose but do so for the right reasons.

Ender

 

[apromisemade]

God gave us the commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Kill,” so I see no difference in the two. If killing an unborn child was worse than killing a person who was already born, then abortion would have to be more evil than infanticide. I don’t think that’s the case.

It is also true that if a mother and unborn child are both dying, equal effort must be made to save them BOTH.

Many innocent people are killed in a war, including unborn children, since some of the women killed in wars are pregnant at the time.

While there may be such a thing as a “just” war, I would get a little nervous about calling a particular war “just,” since two popes were against it. It kind of makes me think that the popes must have considered this war “unjust,” which turns it into a serious moral problem.

It is also true that presidents have the power to start or stop wars, but they have no power to tell women to have abortions.

It is wrong to kill another human being. Period.

Amen. You summed it up for me.
Innocent people suffering and dying in a war gone horribly wrong and founded on lies and innocent children being killed with the consent of their own mothers are both horrible tragedies. Pope John Paul II, for one, made it perfectly clear he thought the Iraq war wa an immense moral tragedy. But whose to say one issue must be focused on at the expense of the other. In this day and age, there is so much that needs doing, so many wrongs that must be made right, that none of us can afford to wash our hands and stand idle.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

… why abortion is worse than the Iraqi War.

I asked this question in another forum : Whose life is more precious to God ? Babies who have not yet reached at mom’s womb or those lives who have already arrived in this world ?

If u have given one option to save either thousands future unborn babies ( not yet in mothers’
wombs ) or hundreds people living in this world , whom will u save ?

I would love to have answers on religious grounds

The background of my question was comments of US Christians : 3542 babies are aborted every day, over 1.2 million babies are aborted every year. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of likewise innocent people in Iraq is terrible… But there has not been a day in the history of the Iraq War when more people died in Iraq than in the USA’s abortion parlors…

Looks like to me US women are killing babies & it’s the Iraqi women who are paying the heavy price.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

I asked this question in another forum : Whose life is more precious to God ? Babies who have not yet reached at mom’s womb or those lives who have already arrived in this world ?

If u have given one option to save either thousands future unborn babies ( not yet in mothers’
wombs ) or hundreds people living in this world , whom will u save ?

I would love to have answers on religious grounds

The background of my question was comments of US Christians : 3542 babies are aborted every day, over 1.2 million babies are aborted every year. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of likewise innocent people in Iraq is terrible… But there has not been a day in the history of the Iraq War when more people died in Iraq than in the USA’s abortion parlors…

Looks like to me US women are killing babies & it’s the Iraqi women who are paying the heavy price.

Salaam Muslim Woman,

Both are wrong. The answers are in this thread. The best place to go for a full understanding of our teaching regarding killing is in the Catechism.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm

The bottomline is that innocents who die during a war are absolutely tragic deaths, but they are not killed intentionally (as opposed to the enemy on the battlefield or the known terrorist). An unborn child killed in the womb is an innocent who is purposely killed. And, as you point out, the number of children killed is horrific. As far as Muslim women (not just Iraqi) paying the price, sadly they are paying the price for the acts of Muslim terrorists. If more Muslim people spoke out and helped to end terrorism, the War on Terror would cease to exist.

Pax Christi,
Robert

 

[josephdavid]

Salaam Muslim Woman,

Both are wrong. The answers are in this thread. The best place to go for a full understanding of our teaching regarding killing is in the Catechism.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm

The bottomline is that innocents who die during a war are absolutely tragic deaths, but they are not killed intentionally (as opposed to the enemy on the battlefield or the known terrorist). An unborn child killed in the womb is an innocent who is purposely killed. And, as you point out, the number of children killed is horrific. As far as Muslim women (not just Iraqi) paying the price, sadly they are paying the price for the acts of Muslim terrorists. If more Muslim people spoke out and helped to end terrorism, the War on Terror would cease to exist.

Pax Christi,
Robert

The war on terror was not in Iraq until we invaded. We invaded based on faulty (if not false) pretenses.

If we had not invaded there would of been no civilian casualties and Al Queda would of not taken up arms there.

You are right in war civlians die they are casualties of war however the issue is the war was started under wrong pretenses if not illegal. So thus those deaths were murder in their own right. Thus there is blood on the hands of the politicians who started this.

 

[josephdavid]

Furthermore the deaths that have resulted in the Iraq war do not include their horrible infant mortality rate.

Since 2003 the infant mortality rate in Iraq shot up to 65 to 80:1000 (depending on who’s statistics you read).

Many blame their crippled healthcare system after their country and infantstructure was leveled.

According to UNICEF, an estimated 500,000 childred died between 1990 - 1998 due to US-backed sanctions which included medical supplies. . Even chlorine, needed to purify water, was embargoed.

Secty. Albright was quoted as saying “We think the price is worth it.”

According report the Iraqi government,approximately 900,000 children have been left orphans since the US invasion in 2003.

Do you still want to say abortion is greater evil?

 

[Ridgerunner]

The war on terror was not in Iraq until we invaded. We invaded based on faulty (if not false) pretenses.

If we had not invaded there would of been no civilian casualties and Al Queda would of not taken up arms there.

It is true there was no war on terror in Iraq until the first Gulf War. There was only terror.

Saddam Hussein started two wars; one of which was a world war. He was responsible for the deaths of upwards of a million people. He was an Eichmann.

The war against Saddam Hussein began with the first Gulf War; the second being a continuation of the first due to Saddam’s violation of truce obligations, and ended in 2003 with the defeat of his army and his deposition.

Since 2003 there has been a war on terrorists in Iraq who poured into the power vacuum when Saddam was deposed; much as the Bolsheviks poured into the vaccum when the Tsar was deposed.
In failing to see that coming, this administration provided inadequate troops to prevent it, and deserves to be faulted for that failure. That has now been remedied.

Had Saddam not been deposed, there would have continued to be civilian casualties at his hands, just as there were before he was deposed. It seems entirely likely he would have opposed Al Quaeda taking over the country. Whether, in the long run, either he or his odious sons could have prevented it is hard to say. In operating terrorist training camps in Iraq, he was dancing with the devil. No one will ever know whether, or how long, he could have continued to control that dance.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Furthermore the deaths that have resulted in the Iraq war do not include their horrible infant mortality rate.

Since 2003 the infant mortality rate in Iraq shot up to 65 to 80:1000 (depending on who’s statistics you read).

Many blame their crippled healthcare system after their country and infantstructure was leveled.

According to UNICEF, an estimated 500,000 childred died between 1990 - 1998 due to US-backed sanctions which included medical supplies. . Even chlorine, needed to purify water, was embargoed.

Secty. Albright was quoted as saying “We think the price is worth it.”

According report the Iraqi government,approximately 900,000 children have been left orphans since the US invasion in 2003.

Do you still want to say abortion is greater evil?

There would, in Iraq, (or any country, really) be any number of people just as vicious and just as big a threat to world peace as was Saddam Hussein. Since you do not oppose the rule of such people, perhaps you could find one on the internet or elsewhere and support his accession to power.

 

[josephdavid]

It is true there was no war on terror in Iraq until the first Gulf War. There was only terror.

Saddam Hussein started two wars; one of which was a world war. He was responsible for the deaths of upwards of a million people. He was an Eichmann.

The war against Saddam Hussein began with the first Gulf War; the second being a continuation of the first due to Saddam’s violation of truce obligations, and ended in 2003 with the defeat of his army and his deposition.

Since 2003 there has been a war on terrorists in Iraq who poured into the power vacuum when Saddam was deposed; much as the Bolsheviks poured into the vaccum when the Tsar was deposed.
In failing to see that coming, this administration provided inadequate troops to prevent it, and deserves to be faulted for that failure. That has now been remedied.

Had Saddam not been deposed, there would have continued to be civilian casualties at his hands, just as there were before he was deposed. It seems entirely likely he would have opposed Al Quaeda taking over the country. Whether, in the long run, either he or his odious sons could have prevented it is hard to say. In operating terrorist training camps in Iraq, he was dancing with the devil. No one will ever know whether, or how long, he could have continued to control that dance.

I thought we invaded because of WMD’s not because Saddam was a bad man. After the fact that WMD’s the media was reporting that the WMD’s were in fact not there the government change their pitch as to why we invaded.

Why then did we not invade Rawanda? Far more killings happened there (500K murdered in just one month) or Darfur. Stalin killed more people than Hitler and Saddam why did we not invade there?

How would you of felt if other countries invaded us as our government was slaughtering millions of innocen Native Americans and Africans for our country expansion?

The point is we had Saddam contained with in his borders and we had a legitimate fight with the rest of the world on our side with in Afghanistan and with in our own borders.

 

[cazayoux]

The background of my question was comments of US Christians : 3542 babies are aborted every day, over 1.2 million babies are aborted every year. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of likewise innocent people in Iraq is terrible… But there has not been a day in the history of the Iraq War when more people died in Iraq than in the USA’s abortion parlors…

Looks like to me US women are killing babies & it’s the Iraqi women who are paying the heavy price.

1 - Of the women that have abortions in the U.S. 25% list themselves as non-Christian. Does your statistic of 3542 per day include only the Christians, meaning that there is actually a total of 4723 abortions per day (1.7m/yr)… OR … did you just assume that all U.S. abortions were from Christians.

2 - Not sure how Iraqi women are paying the price. It seems that most Iraqi women have more now than they did before the insurgency and are most likely to say the invasion was right.

War is war and is a horrible thing. … But PLEASE don’t act like there hasn’t been some things that have been made better … or that the opinion in country is that 100% of the people were better off with Saddam.

Prewar -
… no commercial TV stations
… no commercial radio stations
… no independent newspapers or magazines

Postwar - (March 2006)
… 54 commercial TV stations
… 114 commercial radio stations
… 268 independent newspapers or magazines

Prewar -
… 4,500 Internet Subscribers
… 833,000 Telephone Subscribers

Postwar - (Oct 2007)
… 827,500 Internet Subscribers
… 14,300,000 Telephone Subscribers

An index of political freedom ranks twenty countries in the middle east (1-10).
Pre-war, Iraq was at the bottom of the list with a 1.0!
It is now fourth on the list at 5.05!

A poll conducted last March found that 65 percent of Shiites and 87 percent of Kurds said that the “invasion was right.” Few (5%) Sunnis agreed but, overall, 49 percent of the population supported the invasion. (The poll results are in the Brookings report.)

Since the poll was conducted, conditions have greatly improved in Iraq. Security and other services are returning; whether or not democracy lasts, dictatorial rule seems unlikely to recur. Oil revenues pour in. The economy, thanks in part to the high price of oil, is growing (or perhaps was, now that the price of oil is down). The majority of the country—Shiites and Kurds who suffered grievously under Saddam’s reign—have significant political power. It is likely that if the poll were conducted today, a majority would agree that an invasion—of their own country by a distrusted and now hated foreign power—was “right.”

Again … I’m no fan of war … but i can’t just stand by watching people ignore information. I see the body counts as well … but don’t ignore what things are better now. You help me … what are the statistics for infrastructure pre-war and today (schools, power, …)?

michel

 

[josephdavid]

There would, in Iraq, (or any country, really) be any number of people just as vicious and just as big a threat to world peace as was Saddam Hussein. Since you do not oppose the rule of such people, perhaps you could find one on the internet or elsewhere and support his accession to power.

Even the neighboring Arab countries said invading Iraq was not a good idea and further destablize the region. Our government ignored them.

 

[cazayoux]

The war on terror was not in Iraq until we invaded.

RIGHT!! … It was in New York.

 

[josephdavid]

1 - Of the women that have abortions in the U.S. 25% list themselves as non-Christian. Does your statistic of 3542 per day include only the Christians, meaning that there is actually a total of 4723 abortions per day (1.7m/yr)… OR … did you just assume that all U.S. abortions were from Christians.

2
michel

Again your posts and others here make it sound the lives lost in Iraq mean nothing. Perhaps not your intentions (at least I hope not) but you make it sound ok and because Republicans are against abortion that their war was justified because Americans lives are more important than theirs.

Sorry the American Catholics are being duped by this notion.

 

[wanner47]

If abortion apologists want to make an analogy between war and abortion, then let’s require the same standards for having an abortion that we require for going to war. Until we do that, the analogy is a fraud. Right now, the only legitimate comparison is the fact that, every day, more people are killed in the womb than on every battlefield in the world.

This bears repeating!