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josephdavid
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EXACTLY! Thank you
Although 6 months later President Bush was quoted as saying that he did not think much about Osama bin Laden.
Can someone help explain why abortion is much worse than the Iraqi War?
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Although 6 months later President Bush was quoted as saying that he did not think much about Osama bin Laden.
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cazayoux
Guest
Not true. Look up the civilian ‘casualties’ under Saddam.
Not true. Al Queda was already using Iraq for training.
Now you are right in the sense that Al Queda has increased in size and brought many, many, many others from outside the country into Iraq to fight the U.S.-led forces.
two points … 1 - as we discussed earlier, the issue is of morality not legality. Abortion is legal, but immoral.
2 - are you mad all all of congress, or just the president? (you hadn’t answered this from before.
I agree that going in solely for WMD was using faulty intelligence or possibly just a lie. No doubt this is wrong. Do you honestly believe that is the only reason we went in?
Was Saddam cooperating with the U.N.?
Has anybody forgotten that Saddam brought this on himself by being an evil dictator and megalomaniac?
michel
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cazayoux
Guest
Yet … as YOU said, it is Al Queda that has taken up arms in Iraq.
(edited … thought it was Muslim Woman that stated that, but it was you in post #111)
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cazayoux
Guest
I agree that the WMD excuse was wrong.
WMDs would only be a portion of the morality discussion pertaining to the war, though… and focusing on issues other than WMD isn’t a pitch fro the government.
We absolutely should have helped.
Truly sad.
Remember … use ALL the facts… the killing of innocent Native Americans started long before the U.S. even had a government.
!!! uh … Kuwait. Saddam contained would be a delusion.
The tragedy from 1991 was that we told the locals in Iraq that they need to be the ones to overthrow Saddam. We said the U.S. would back them if they rose up against Saddam. They did rise up against him … we did not back them … they were horribly slaughtered.
We SHOULD have done this right and backed them in the early 90’s. Then we would be in a position of supporting Iraqi’s rather than drawing the ire of the world as we are today.
michel
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josephdavid
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cazayoux
Guest
What you stated is a horrible thing that the U.S. has done.
Yes, I still say abortion is the greater evil.
michel
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josephdavid
Guest
By who? The bishops or CCC or Scripture? Remember even they are bound by this as we are. With in those two ALL life is equal.
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cazayoux
Guest
I’ve said before that all life is sacred.
You need to separate pro-life/pro-abortion as a Republican/Democrat thing.
I know plenty of pro-life democrats and plenty of pro-abortion Catholics (31% of abortions in the U.S. last year were by Catholic women).
I’m pro-life and anti-politics.
Please don’t take my posts as pro-Iraqi war.
I just don’t like seeing people ignoring so much information.
Politics is what gives you such a one-sided view and what has brought you to create this discussion.
Politics is what divides us and feeds us certain information.
There is plenty of information out there, and you seem to have focused only on one side of it.
I agree that war should not have been necessary.
I agree that war is a horrible thing.
I agree that every life lost in war (innocent or not) is a terrible thing.
I disagree that all things are worse for the Iraqi people because of the war.
I still think abortion is worse.
The saddest thing to me is that ‘abortion’ has become a political word.
When you say it, in your mind you see the letters of the word, or a person holding a sign with the word, rather than what ‘abortion’ really is.
If I say the word ‘horse’, you should instinctively see a picture of a horse in your mind.
Why don’t we see what abortion is in our minds when we hear the word?
It’s a skull in 3 pieces.
It’s severed body parts lined up on a table to make sure they ‘got it all’.
I still think abortion is worse.
michel
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cazayoux
Guest
Actually … presidents DO have the power to tell women they can have abortion. … and this is exactly what the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) will do when President Obama enacts it.
A 13 year old can’t go to the dentist without a parent, but will be able to have an abortion without even telling a parent.
michel
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Ridgerunner
Guest
The “first” gulf war ended in a truce only. There were conditions to that truce. Saddam broke many of them, including, it was thought, the continuation of his WMD program. While WMDs were, indeed, found, they were not many. His nuclear program, it appears, had barely advanced beyond the stage of stockpiling weapons-grade uranium. In retrospect, it appears his program was nowhere near the stage at which the majority of intelligence services believed it was.
I do not say the U.S. should or can assume the burden of correcting every injustice on earth. Darfur, for example, would be a far more difficult thing than Iraq has been. Darfur is inland. We have no staging areas anywhere near it. Intervening there would be a declaration of war against Sudan; a large, populous and very well-armed country with some of the most difficult terrain on earth. Darfur would make Iraq look like a playground spat. If the public in the U.S. now disfavors Iraq, I think it goes without saying that invading Sudan would be totally unacceptable to the American people if they knew what it would entail.
You are surely aware that the U.S. did, indeed, take part in military action in Russia aimed at ousting the Bolsheviks. Google “The polar bear war”. It was, however, an unsuccessful endeavor. At the conclusion of WW II, it was believed the American public would not have tolerated initiating a new European war with the war against Japan still going on. There was but a brief period between the end of that war and the Soviet development of atomic weaponry. In any event there were, in the U.S., numerous apologists for the Soviet regime, and many believed them.
Slavery in the U.S. was unjustifiable. But certainly we were invaded while it was going on. Google “War of 1812” for information on that. But it would be a mistake to believe U.S. slaveowners “slaughtered millions” of their slaves. Look it up and you will find that slaves were very expensive. Not saying none were wantonly killed, but for a man back then to have wantonly killed a slave would be like a farmer deliberately burning his $100,000 tractor now.
And to the extent “millions” of native Americans were killed as a consequence of white incursion onto the continent, that die was almost certainly cast with DeSoto’s expedition. Eurasian diseases were responsible for the overwhelming bulk of the casualties. That was inevitable. Sooner or later, Europeans, Africans or Asians would have made contact with Native Americans, or vice versa, and the results, in terms of disease, would have been the same, regardless of the nature of the contact. An interesting book by anthropologists titled “1491” is available on the subject. The phenomenon had parallels on the Eurasian continent. Recall the Black Death, which appears to have had Asian origins. Notwithstanding that Europeans and Asians had traded diseases and acquired cross-immunities for millenia, it at least approached the scale of the Amerind plagues. But since Amerinds and Eurasians had not exchanged diseases and immunities, it was much worse in the Americas. You may remember that the black soldier in Cortez’ army who inadvertently brought smallpox to the Aztecs, survived the disease, as did most Europeans, Asians and Africans at the time. Some 90% of the Aztecs did not. One man was all it took.
That is not to justify the deliberate eradication of Indians that did go on in the U.S. But literal, intended killing to eradicate Indians, was an almost miniscule part of the whole; the real damage having been done before Anglo settlers even arrived on the continent.
We had a legitimate cause to punish the Taliban and Al Quaeda. Whether there is any reasonable hope for a successful outcome of our continued presence there is very much open to question; much more so than our continued presence in Iraq. Iraq may yet prove to be the beginning of the end for the myth of Al Quaeda among Muslim populations. We will know in a few years, as it seems evident Obama’s position with regard to that war is now essentially the same as George Bush’s.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
I clearly posted that the lives lost in Iraq are absolutely tragic. Again, you want to make this a Republican/Democrat issue. It is not. The fact of the matter is, even if it was a Democrat war (Bosnia, Iraq 1-1/2, VietNam), the same conditions apply. And, as Americans, we take responsibility for the deaths regardless of our party.
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estesbob
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The Iraq war was the just the latest in long line of excuses used by "pro-life’ abortion aplogists to try and rationalize their support of pro-laborton canidates. The truth is their poltics trump their pro-life views and rather than just admit that they launch into complex moral eqauivalence scenarios where the supporters of abortion are saintly people who’s only flaw is their reluctant support of abortion while their opponents are war mongering savages who are pro-life only becuase they want more children to starve to death with their social policies (hopefully leaving a few alive to feed into the military where they are sent to burn, rape and kill innocent people throughuout he world,)
The truth is that for those who really believe that the unborn have the same right to life as the born there is no need to ask questions as to the difference between supporting abortion and supporting the Iraq war. For those who understand the intrinsic evil of abortion the answer is self evident.
The truth is that for those who really believe that the unborn have the same right to life as the born there is no need to ask questions as to the difference between supporting abortion and supporting the Iraq war. For those who understand the intrinsic evil of abortion the answer is self evident.
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cazayoux
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This is exactly what I see as well, especially for my parents.
They get SO wrapped up in their politics. This is the reason for my discussing how ‘abortion’ is now just a word in politics. When that word is said, it should bring those horrible realistic images what what abortion really is.
I liken U.S. politics to my children’s lunch time.
I don’t ask “What would you like for lunch?”
Who KNOWS what kinds of answers I might get.
I will ask “Would you rather a ham sandwich or a PB&J sandwich for lunch?”
Their choice … but guided by the option I’ve decided.
In the U.S. we are offered only two choices.
Some get SO caught up in which choice they can’t discuss an issue without first checking what their party’s stance is on the issue. The discussion usually goes to what the OTHER party did that was so wrong.
So many need to get their head out of their … politics and have real discussions that include all the information rather than just a pool of one-sided information.
My parent are pro-life, but voted for Obama because he is a democrat.
They vote based on an us-versus-them mentality.
Where do I fit?
I’m pro-life (anti-abortion, anti-death penalty),
eco-friendly (but think global warming is pseudo-science - I’d rather see all that global warming study money go to problems of deforestation and alternative fuel research)
**in favor of small federal government **(actually the basis for the republican party)
in favor of small state government (actually the basis for the democrat party)
michel
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Muslim_Woman
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Salaam/peace
As most Americans are Christians , we can guess , abortions are done mostly by Christians women.
Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered Since The U.S. Invaded Iraq “1,297,997”
justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
Salaam/peace
A Christians gave me that statistics to justify his support for Mr. Boot .
As most Americans are Christians , we can guess , abortions are done mostly by Christians women.
why it’s hard to understand ? Many Christians who are against abortion voted for Mr. Boot . It’s the US women who are willingly killing their babies & it’s the Iraqi women who are paying the price ( they are becoming widows , kids are either murdered or are orphans now . Do u need more explanations ? )
I just can’t believe it. So , u really believe , to get tv / radio stations , internet connections or get more daily papers , people can support a war ?
Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered Since The U.S. Invaded Iraq “1,297,997”
justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
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Ridgerunner
Guest
The number is too high, but any number is too high. Far and away most murdered Iraqis were murdered by Muslims.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Muslim Woman may be biased.
She didn’t answer or challenge my earlier post, so I take it that in her heart she knows I am right:
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josephdavid
Guest
Muslim Woman,
Most here only believe a few thousand have been killed in battle or murdered.
Also most sadly believe that it is Islam that commited the terrorism of 9/11 and Islam is what Americans are fighting.
I do not agree with this but just pointing out an observation for you as I am an American.
However, if that were true that Islam and all Muslims are murderers and want all who are not Muslim dead, then we can say that about the Catholic Church.
Remember the Inquisistions which tens of thousands were tortured and burned alive for supposed heresey. There were different periods of inquisition (Spanish, Roman, German, etc). The Spanish Inquisition is said to result in 32,000 deaths.
But does that make all Christians murderes? Of course not, I am sure share the same philosophy. In most are good decent people who try to live a moral and just life as Jesus has commanded us. However, sadly as it may be, some Christians through out history twisted and distorted Chritianity for their own gains.
Just as certain people whom happen to be Muslim have distorted and twisted Islam for their own personal agenda.
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estesbob
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More of the moral equivalance game once again based on wildly inflated figues with no basis in fact, The best estimate for the death toll for the entire centuries run of the Spanish inquisition was around 4,000. Islamic terrorists killed nearly that many in single morning in New York 7 years ago.
But Ill tell you what-I am more than happy to agree to put all Spanish Inquisitors on the no fly list as well as cut off aid to any country that helps them. If we find a country training Spanish inquisitors we should not rule out military action. Agreed?
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josephdavid
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Remember there was more than one inquisition in history. But in regards to the Spanish Inquisition I mistated the fact. Tens of thousands were dispposed of which some where between 2000 - 5000 were executed. Some by being burned alive.
I can add too that Americans forced Native Americans to attend Christian schools during Grant’s “Peace Plan”
So am I to assume the members of the Catholic Church and other Christian sects have been perfect?
Maybe the late Holy Father was wrong to apologize for the Inquisitions. Not just once but on numerous occassion.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
That is a total misrepresentation of CAF members, and therefore a deceitful claim on your part.
Most of us know that Islamic terrorists committed the terrorism and Islamic terrorists and, in the historical case of Sadaam, tyrants that we are fighting. Innocent Muslims have died because of the actions of these terrorists - both directly and indirectly. Though some Muslims have spoken out against terrorism, not enough have and the ones that have do it in a weak manner and don’t join the efforts to rid the world of Islamic terrorists.
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