Can someone help explain why abortion is much worse than the Iraqi War?

[josephdavid]

That is a total misrepresentation of CAF members, and therefore a deceitful claim on your part.

Most of us know that Islamic terrorists committed the terrorism and Islamic terrorists and, in the historical case of Sadaam, tyrants that we are fighting. Innocent Muslims have died because of the actions of these terrorists - both directly and indirectly. Though some Muslims have spoken out against terrorism, not enough have and the ones that have do it in a weak manner and don’t join the efforts to rid the world of Islamic terrorists.

I did not say all. I said most.

Maybe they do not do enough because they do not see us doing enough to stop trying to impose our lives on others? Remember most if not all Islamic countries were standing with us in invading Afghanistan to go after the people responsible for 9/11.

 

[Ender]

The number {of deaths in the Iraq war} is too high

The number is not merely high it is ludicrous and probably off by a factor of ten.

Far and away most murdered Iraqis were murdered by Muslims.

Despite which, the response of those who oppose the war is to hold the US accountable for these deaths as well. It certainly makes the terrorists job easier when we are blamed for the slaughters they commit. The Iraqi’s however, don’t seem to have the same opinion of the terrorists which is why they finally turned on them and increased their cooperation with US troops.

Ender

 

[RobertLGarrett]

I did not say all.** I said most**.

Maybe they do not do enough because they do not see us doing enough to stop trying to impose our lives on others? Remember most if not all Islamic countries were standing with us in invading Afghanistan to go after the people responsible for 9/11.

Your misrepresentation was not in the word “most.” It was in dropping the word “terrorist.” An extremely few people on CAF blame “Muslims” as you claim. If you don’t blame Muslim terrorists, like the rest of us, then you may need your head examined.

Islamic countries should stand with us in all of our efforts to rid the world of terrorism, but they don’t. Because of this, sadly, their people suffer the ill effects of war and continued terrorism. Since many Muslims think it is actually licit to kill the infidel, they may continue to indirectly support terrorism.

 

[josephdavid]

Your misrepresentation was not in the word “most.” It was in dropping the word “terrorist.” An extremely few people on CAF blame “Muslims” as you claim. If you don’t blame Muslim terrorists, like the rest of us, then you may need your head examined.
.

My head is clear Robert. I do not know where you come from but I live in Chicago with a good size Muslim population. Also I work alot in Detroit (once a month) which has the a huge Muslim population. In May will be my 4th working trip to Israel which is surrounded by even a larger Muslim population.

With that said yes I agree the terrorist of 9/11 were Muslim. But I do not believe they represent all Muslims. Just as some Protestant Christians lynched Catholic and Jews in the 1800’s. I do not beleive that makes all Chritsians bad people.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

My head is clear Robert. I do not know where you come from but I live in Chicago with a good size Muslim population. Also I work alot in Detroit (once a month) which has the a huge Muslim population. In May will be my 4th working trip to Israel which is surrounded by even a larger Muslim population.

With that said yes I agree the terrorist of 9/11 were Muslim. **But I do not believe they represent all Muslims. **Just as some Protestant Christians lynched Catholic and Jews in the 1800’s. I do not beleive that makes all Chritsians bad people.

Exactly. Neither do most (almost all) CAF posters. That is why your earlier post was a misrepresentation and deceitful. Thank you for now understanding.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

The number is not merely high it is ludicrous and probably off by a factor of ten.
Despite which, the response of those who oppose the war is to hold the US accountable for these deaths as well. It certainly makes the terrorists job easier when we are blamed for the slaughters they commit. The Iraqi’s however, don’t seem to have the same opinion of the terrorists which is why they finally turned on them and increased their cooperation with US troops.

Ender

 

[estesbob]

Remember there was more than one inquisition in history. But in regards to the Spanish Inquisition I mistated the fact. Tens of thousands were dispposed of which some where between 2000 - 5000 were executed. Some by being burned alive.

I can add too that Americans forced Native Americans to attend Christian schools during Grant’s “Peace Plan”

So am I to assume the members of the Catholic Church and other Christian sects have been perfect?

Maybe the late Holy Father was wrong to apologize for the Inquisitions. Not just once but on numerous occassion.

In other words your hysterical comments about the inquisition were as. Wildly overstated as the ream of other dubious numbers you contiinually post

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I think most on here value all life. I do. So I think there was justification for the Afghanistan invation due to the training camps, but Iraq military action I have never supported. In the end the very few people that caused that military action (Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield) will have their justice. Remember this is not a war even though we are bankrupting our country on this event. I’m not convinced the trillion spent there did not cause the economic crisis, coincendence the bail out is a trillion also?
Also there has been an estimated 500,000 Iraqis died (most not a result of US troops) Iraqis died but from the general instability of Bush’s folly. I love to be behind our president, but other than his pro-life positions Bush has been dismal. Look at the condition of our country compared to 8 years ago.

So I support the solders following orders, but the 3 musketeers (maybe more) are really a group of thugs and idiots that have started a war without formal declaration or process.

To keep numbers in perspective, there are ~1,000,000 abortions per year in our own sweet little country, legal, in each of our cities. With 300,000,000 million people it is like having a terriorist kill 3333 people every year in every city of 1 million people. Still on my scale abortion is worse due to the numbers and that there is no one to stand up for the life loss, they have no advocate and it is likely to get worse for those poor babies in the womb real soon. Do you realize Planned Parent Hood gets $356M of our taxpayer dollars now? Seems like we fund the killing machine and then pay for many abortions now with our tax dollars.

**Hope to see everyone at the 36th annual March for Life January 21st -23rd in Washington DC. **

Leroy

So you are OK with invading a soverign country under faulty (if not false) pretenses which results of the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents?

Sorry I can not take this thread and its arguments seriously. No one yet has pointed out that life the womb is greater than the life out the womb. I have pointed out that ALL life (in and out of the womb) are sacred and to be defended. Wether you choose to accept this is your choice.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I think most on here value all life. I do. So I think there was justification for the Afghanistan invation due to the training camps, but Iraq military action I have never supported. In the end the very few people that caused that military action (Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield) will have their justice. Remember this is not a war even though we are bankrupting our country on this event. I’m not convinced the trillion spent there did not cause the economic crisis, coincendence the bail out is a trillion also?
Also there has been an estimated 500,000 (most not a result of US troops) Iraqis died but from the general instability of Bush’s folly. I love to be behind our president, but other than his pro-life positions Bush has been dismal. Look at the condition of our country compared to 8 years ago.

So I support the solders following orders, but the 3 musketeers (maybe more) are really a group of thugs and idiots that have started a war without formal declaration or process.

To keep numbers in perspective, there are ~1,000,000 abortions per year in our own sweet little country, legal, in each of our cities. With 300,000,000 million people it is like having a terriorist kill 3333 people every year in every city of 1 million people. Still on my scale abortion is worse due to the numbers and that there is no one to stand up for the life loss, they have no advocate and it is likely to get worse for those poor babies in the womb real soon. Do you realize Planned Parent Hood gets $356M of our taxpayer dollars now? Seems like we fund the killing machine and then pay for many abortions now with our tax dollars.

**Hope to see everyone at the 36th annual March for Life January 21st -23rd in Washington DC. **

Leroy

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

…Islamic terrorists killed nearly that many in single morning in New York 7 years ago.

An American journalist asked FBI Chief why Laden is mentioned as suspect only & not as a criminal in the official website of FBI . Ans was like that they don’t have any proof against Laden. It’s only their assumption that Laden is responsible for 9/11.

Even if it’s true that Laden is responsible , how justified it is to kill thousands ( if not million
already ) civilians including kids to catch only one criminal ?

Also , Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. So , why justify the Iraq war by using 9/11 tragedy ? If u follow the Old Testament --eye for an eye , then Christians have killed many more than this eye concept . If u want to follow Jesus (p) --turn your cheek , love your enemies --then Christians have no excuses for Iraq & Afghan wars.

If Muslims are bad , Christians must not try their best to be worst. If unborn babies are precious to God , so are the Muslims .

 

[RobertLGarrett]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

An American journalist asked FBI Chief why Laden is mentioned as suspect only & not as a criminal in the official website of FBI . Ans was like that they don’t have any proof against Laden. It’s only their assumption that Laden is responsible for 9/11.

Even if it’s true that Laden is responsible , how justified it is to kill thousands ( if not million
already ) civilians including kids to catch only one criminal ?

Also , Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. So , why justify the Iraq war by using 9/11 tragedy ? If u follow the Old Testament --eye for an eye , then Christians have killed many more than this eye concept . If u want to follow Jesus (p) --turn your cheek , love your enemies --then Christians have no excuses for Iraq & Afghan wars.

It is the War on Terror(ism) not the War on 9/11 Perpetrators. There have been multiple terrorist attacks over the year done by Muslim terrorists. The tie-in with Iraq was their state support of terrorism, the threat that Iraq was still being to its neighbors and its continued antagonism of coalition forces after the first Iraq War ceasefire.
Muslim Woman:

If Muslims are bad , Christians must not try their best to be worst. If unborn babies are precious to God , so are the Muslims .

Again, Muslims aren’t bad. Muslim terrorists are bad. In the fight against terrorists and the Hussein governments, innocents have died. This is unfortunate, but it happens in every war and the primary fault belongs to those who brought that war upon your region - Muslim terrorists.

Your constant attempt to frame this as a religious war (Christian versus Muslim) is ignorant.

 

[estesbob]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

An American journalist asked FBI Chief why Laden is mentioned as suspect only & not as a criminal in the official website of FBI . Ans was like that they don’t have any proof against Laden. It’s only their assumption that Laden is responsible for 9/11.

Even if it’s true that Laden is responsible , how justified it is to kill thousands ( if not million
already ) civilians including kids to catch only one criminal ?

Also , Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. So , why justify the Iraq war by using 9/11 tragedy ? If u follow the Old Testament --eye for an eye , then Christians have killed many more than this eye concept . If u want to follow Jesus (p) --turn your cheek , love your enemies --then Christians have no excuses for Iraq & Afghan wars.

If Muslims are bad , Christians must not try their best to be worst. If unborn babies are precious to God , so are the Muslims .

I didnt say a word about Bin-Laden. What I did point out that 9-11 was carried out by Islamic terrorists.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Saddam Hussein started a world war by invading another country and threatening a third. At a point, a truce was declared. Just a truce. There were conditions to that truce, failure to adhere to which was an acknolwedged breach of that truce and renewing the state of war. Saddam did breach those conditions in a number of ways, but perhaps not in all ways, and the war was renewed.

30+ countries supported that. So did the majority in the U.S. Congress; Democrats and Republicans alike.

The war itself ended very quickly with victory for the allied forces. What followed was an internal revolt by Baathists and terrorist groups like Al Quaeda. The Bush administration greatly underestimated that possibility and did not remedy it for too long a time.

Saddam Hussein was Iraq’s “stability”, but he would not have lived forever. Whether his sociopathic sons could have successfully acceded to power, as Assad’s son did in Syria, is hard to know. It appears the two did not see eye to eye and there is no telling what would have happened at Saddam’s death.

But unless, say, Qusay killed or imprisoned Uday, and managed to hold onto power in the same way Saddam did, Iraq was facing a radical Islamic revolt anyway. This time it happened with the allied military forces present. Hard to think it would have had a better outcome without them.

 

[icknish]

In the ten commandments it states: Thou shalt not murder. Abortion is murder.Outright.
War on the otherhand, for right or wrong intentions or perceptions, is sadly at times a necessary form of protection of one group or individual against another.
Its ligitamacy lies within the mind of the agressor. The final judgement with God.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

On Election Day, right after Obama was confirmed as having won the election, I got into a heated debate with a friend over why abortion is worse than the Iraqi War.

I tried arguing that abortion is the intentional killing of innocent human life and that it was legalized murder, to which my friend (I cannot remember correctly) argued that the Iraqi War was no different. He also stated, I think, that the Iraqi War was more pressing an issue.

I was soundly cut-down because, in my lack of knowledge on the deeper theological/philosophical reasons on why abortion was wrong, I was unable to counter his argument that the Iraqi War was more pressing an issue than abortion.

Could someone explain why abortion is worse than the Iraqi War, from both a theological and secular perspective (and keeping in mind any and all civilian losses because of the war)?

Pax Tecum.

It’s a sin to purposly start a war. It’s a sin to purposly stop a life. Both are as bad as the other,for in war inocent lives are taken in abortion the same. It,is ok to defend yourself,family,and country. It’s our right to protect the unborn. love of Christ Nancy

 

[PerryJ]

Muslim Woman,
Most here only believe a few thousand have been killed in battle or murdered.

Also most sadly believe that it is Islam that commited the terrorism of 9/11 and Islam is what Americans are fighting.

I do not agree with this but just pointing out an observation for you as I am an American.

However, if that were true that Islam and all Muslims are murderers and want all who are not Muslim dead, then we can say that about the Catholic Church.

Remember the Inquisistions which tens of thousands were tortured and burned alive for supposed heresey. There were different periods of inquisition (Spanish, Roman, German, etc). The Spanish Inquisition is said to result in 32,000 deaths.

But does that make all Christians murderes? Of course not, I am sure share the same philosophy. In most are good decent people who try to live a moral and just life as Jesus has commanded us. However, sadly as it may be, some Christians through out history twisted and distorted Chritianity for their own gains.

Just as certain people whom happen to be Muslim have distorted and twisted Islam for their own personal agenda.

Your post appears to contain several errors in facts and thoughts. There were several inquisitions; however, all of them combined totaled approximately 5,000 people. Tragic and wrong; however, it certainly is not to the extent that many believe.

It should also be noted that the Spanish Inquisition was the result of Islamic invasions and the Spanish Monarchy. The Pope was pressured into issuing the papal bull that allowed the Spanish Monarchy to perform the Inquisition. Once the Pope saw how it was being used he created a papal bull against the Inquisition. The monarchy forced the Pope to rescind his bull against the Inquisition. The Pope did this out of fear of Islam. Islam was the greatest military power during this time. The Pope thought he needed the Spanish protection. It should also be noted that the Inquisition was caused by fear. Islam was just forced out of Spain after many years of mistreating Spaniards. The Spanish Monarchy wanted non-Spaniards killed or forced out of the country. The Spanish would forcibly convert the Jews. They would then condemn the Jews for not being Christian. Islam indirectly and directly impacted the Spanish Inquisition and without a militant Islam it would never had occurred.

It appears that you have a mistaken impression of Islam. Many people within Islam are not mean spirited. This does not mean that they are tolerant. The Muslim belief started with a militant individual that murdered and persecuted people. In fact he also supported and ordered the assassination of individuals. He supported slavery, adultery as we know it and many other sinful acts. The breakdown with people unfamiliar with Islamic beliefs is they believe it is a religion. It is more than a religion. It is also a political ideology. Non-Muslims are considered second class citizens and can be enslaved at any time. Slavery in fact is codified in their laws. In all Islamic countries non-Muslims are treated as second class citizens. Different laws pertain to us and in many countries we have to pay a tax for not being Muslim.

It also has to be noted that although they do not profess to having more than one God they in fact do. They profess that their religion has only one God; however, all actions of the Prophet Muhammad are deemed as being the path to salvation. They have put Muhammad on a level as high as God. Muslims will deny that they have two Gods; however, in practice it is true. This is made worse as Muhammad was a killer in every sense of the word. How cna they support the belief of a murder and believe in the same God as us. They do and they don’t. They profess it is the same God; however, their beliefs concerning this God are different. They do not believe in a merciful God. They believe in a God that commands and is intolerant.

All of the Middle East was Christian. After Muhammad attacked the innocent and took over the Arab peninsula his successors continued to kill everyone around them. This is how a man with a few followers expanded from a mere 40,000 people to the second largest religion in the world. For example it continues today as over 200,000 Christians were killed in East Timor by Muslims. Many Muslims state that Indonesian was peaceably converted to Islamic beliefs. That is not true.

It is true that Christians have committed many mass killings and horrible crimes. The difference is the Islamic beliefs have made these acts a part of their law and as they follow Muhammed completely they will never be able to change. That is why they will always fail as a civilization. Even when they were the greatest military power in the world they failed in the areas of mathematics, science and invention. Their religion dictates them to be molded in the past. For example even the concept of Arabic numbers was not their thought. It was taken from other civilizations. As a civlization they have never been able to advance in logic or thought as they follow a man that was not a great theologian or prophet. I want to stress that I do not mean this in a mean spirited way. These thoughts are from many historians I have read concerning this subject.

It also does not mean that we should not fear the growth in Islam. As Christians have subscribed to abortion and Muslims have not their expansion is at an alarming rate. They will soon be the largest religion in the world and will have large voting blocks in Germany and France. Europe will soon be dominated by Islamic thoughts. Perhaps as soon as the next 30 - 50 years.

I would recommend reading Father Mitch Pacwa’s book on Islam. It explains the beliefs in a fair and balanced approached.

 

[apromisemade]

It is true that Christians have committed many mass killings and horrible crimes. The difference is the Islamic beliefs have made these acts a part of their law and as they follow Muhammed completely they will never be able to change. That is why they will always fail as a civilization.

You just contradicted yourself there my friend. Islam is not the enemy, theocracy and extremism is. The more brutal teachings and practices of Christianity were very much law in many Christian countries for many years. For example, during the reign of Queen Mary of England, burning someone to death for opposing Catholicism was a simple matter of “law and order.” These practices under the law were not changed by the Church, but only through opposition and resistance to Her complete and total domination of society as a whole and the concept of seperation of Church and State. Islam is no more a political ideology than Christianity. Islamism is the word for muslim teachings and ideas become ingrained in political governance. Middle Eastern nations have made the decision to base their constitutions on the teachings of the Koran. Just as the Pope was once the most powerful political force in the Christian world, the one who really calls the shots in countries like Iran is the Grand Ayatollah.
We listen to these stories on the news about preachers declaring that we must oppose Islam with military force because it is an enemy to Christanity and America; but every time I hear that, I can’t help but think of that moment in the Olive Gardens. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus and Peter drew his sword to attack them and defend Jesus, Christ told him, point blank, “Peter, put it down!”

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

. The Muslim belief started with a militant individual that murdered and persecuted people.

“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes.

Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahinah 60:8]

 

[Sair]

I am sure others can be more detailed, but for a start, the whole purpose of an abortion is to kill an innocent; that is not true of the Iraqi war. If the person is into numbers, there are about 3,000 children per day killed by abortion in the USA alone. That by far outnumbers the unintended casualties of the Iraqi war.

As I understand it, the whole purpose of war is to kill the enemy. Every soldier is, basically, trained to kill. I’m still a little hazy on how war represents a lesser evil than abortion. If abortion is performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, it causes no suffering because the foetus feels no pain - it is not biologically capable of suffering. That can hardly be compared to the suffering caused in wartime, both to soldiers and civilians.

Furthermore, I have to query the notion of innocence here - at what point does a person stop being innocent? What about a person who has tried to lead an exemplary life, and has done good deeds and helped people? I’m sure there are people like that being killed and maimed in the Middle East. Isn’t that worse than aborting a foetus - which is only ‘innocent’ through lack of opportunity? I’m well aware of the pro-life argument that an unborn child may one day discover a cure for cancer, or go on to achieve greatness in some other fashion; by the same token, they may grow up to be an arch-villain, a-la Hitler or Mussolini.

At the end of the day, killing is killing. What is at issue is whether it is more wrong to kill an unborn child than an adult. In practical terms, in real terms, killing an adult who has formed attachments in the world affects more people than killing an unborn foetus. I’m pretty sure that I will never be convinced that abortion causes more suffering than war.

 

[PerryJ]

"

Your post is in error in many areas. First Queen Mary is not the Catholic Church. Her laws were not sanctioned by the Church. Even if you believe your thought; which is again a false premise, she executed 295 people. Hardly to be compared to Muslim’s repeated genocides. One has to remember that Queen Mary was fighting for her life. At the time the Protestant and Catholic’s often used religion as an excuse for ascending to the thrown. Again, as a whole this was not sanctioned by the Church. (Pope’s did make errors; however, it never sanctioned murder in the context you are attempting to use it.) Mary Queen was in a political struggle to stay alive; to portend that it was solely a religious issue is not factual.

In fact the Church did impact laws. The Catholic Church created the Rule of Evidence and was the first to limit torture. At first glance this does not appear to be a monumental feat; however, the Catholic Church after thousand upon thousands of year were the first to limit torture in method, time and number. During the Spanish Inquisition the Papal dictate was not followed. The Islamic religion on the other hand has codified and supports torture and mutilation of people. Perhaps you recall the Princess that was just stoned to death. The Middle East threatened the media that published the facts concerning the stoning. Islam wants to appear to be tolerant; however, they have to use propaganda and threats to create a false image of themselves.

You do not understand separation of Church and State. The separation of Church and State was not meant to keep Christianity out of government. It was to keep government out of religion. Many have the concepts of Church and State backwards. I have posted on this site many times that every Founding Father believed that if the US was not based upon Christian values the Constitution would fail. I can provide quotes from all concerning this matter. Note that even the three legislative branches are based upon the Bible. One last note people often respond to these thoughts that Thomas Jefferson was a deist. This is to ignore a basic timeline. Thomas Jefferson was a Christian scholar during the time of the Constitution and his presidency. He became a deist much later in life.

Islam is 100 percent a political ideology. If one reads the history of Muhammad one will see that his religion is 100 percent linked to political life. The political and the religious can not be separated. For example the Islamic belief not only supports slavery of non-Muslims it very exactingly defines how to do it. As one can not go against Muhammad and his teachings the political concept of slavery of a non-Muslim can not be changed. It appears that you have a Western thought process that a new revelation from God can exist. This is a Western thought and again why the Catholic religion was able to pull man out of the dark ages. Islamic belief does not allow their political ideology to change. A non-Muslim is a second class citizen and there is nothing a Muslim can do to change that belief. Their religion also dicates that the whole world has to submit to Islam. This belief creates a political dynamic that can not be changed.

The Middle East in fact has effectively covered up much of their actions. For example when Microsoft was publishing the Encarta and it discussed the mass genocides the Muslims were performing they threatened to arrest every Microsoft employee in Islamic countries.

Yesterday I gave the wrong author for one of the many books I have read concerning this issue. Father Mitch Pacwa wrote the forward. Tomorrow I will post several books to read on this subject. Your thoughts are created based upon a Western thought process. It is not what Islam believes and is not how they think. For example God is not nice fatherly person. We are his subordinates, slaves and we are to fear him. We may share the same God in name; however, not in belief.

Lastly, you have missed a major fact that Muslims have to live as the Prophet Muhammad did. His beliefs in murder, slavery, adultery and conquests have to be followed. One does not have a choice as one must follow his every action as if he is a God. Again, they claim he is not a God; however, they treat him as a God and hold him to the same level as a God. They are monotheistic in name only and not in practice. As such Muhammad’s religious and political beliefs have to be followed and are intertwined. Again, I will post several books tomorrow to help you understand their beliefs. Your beliefs are commonly stated among TV personalities; however, it is not the truth. They have a political and religious ideology that is one and the same. Muslims do not believe that the sword should be put down. In fact they believe the Bible has been corrupted.

To end with a note from the original thread the thought that abortion and the Iraq war are comparative is very nonsensical. Abortion takes a human life that has not committed a sin and has not even been born into original sin. As such it is like killing an angel. It is killing pure innocence. The Church stated that they did not support the war; however, they did not state that it was an unjust war. The soldiers involved no matter how good are tainted with the stain of original sin and must pay the punishment by dying. Every one of those soldiers had to die and was not innocent, just as I am not innocent and must die. Lastly from a per mathematical perspective how does one compare 4,000 lives that gave freedom to 25 million people to the 5 – 6 million abortions of innocent lives during the same time period. This is not even to take into account that the soldiers volunteered to help. I have seen this comparison many times and just do not understand how anyone can compare the two.