Can someone please explain this to me?

[FCEGM]

Could you please give me your interpretation of this passage above for me then? Give me some good come backs for me to tell them.

Welcome to the forum, Barbitone.

What you will come to see if you stay around this forum for awhile (I hope you do!) is that it’s not a matter of one’s personal interpretation, but of one’s adherence to the interpretation the Christ’s Church has given to it for 2,000 years. That said, we are encouraged to read and pray with Sacred Scripture to come to a deeper knowledge of God and His Christ and may even come to greater insight on various passages of Scripture than have here-to-fore been discovered, but as Catholics we will be sure that a personal interpretation is not in opposition to those passages (relatively few) that the Church has definitively interpreted - those on the Eucharist being such.

Why is it not symbolic? The wine is symbolic of his blood, and the biscuit is symbolic of his flesh is it not? Again, no disrespect. I’m not calling anything satanic I’m just addressing things I have always wondered about and others have mentioned also.

Understood. No, they are not symbolic. The bread and the wine have truly been changed into Christ’s Body and Blood; the wine and the bread appear and taste the same, but they now are, following the Consecration, Christ’s sacramental presence in our midst on the Altar and in our bodies.

This article will be helpful to you in coming to some understanding of the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/transubstantiation.asp

A brief excerpt:

Jesus was not just giving to the apostles blessed bread and wine. He was giving His whole life– Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. He was giving His very self. How true that was! The next day, Jesus’ body hung upon the altar of the cross. His blood was spilled to wash away our sins. As priest, He offered the perfect sacrifice for the remission of sin. However, this sacrifice was not death rendering but life giving, for three days later our Lord rose from the dead conquering both sin and death. Yes, the perfect, everlasting covenant of life and love with God was made by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FCEGM]

Isn’t it just a tad satanic to display the symbol that is identified with the suffering and murder of someone whether it is inverted or not? You say it symbolizes his good will in that he sacrificed himself for your sins or what not but it does seem a bit morbid. Isn’t it a bit like going up to Jackie Onasis with a little sniper rifle pendant around your neck? “Just keepin’ the memory alive”. Jesus!

Why not wear a love heart symbol or something. That WAS the main message anyhow wasn’t it? Love? Not crucifixtion.

In considering the Cross, one sees the (dreadful) fittingness of this means by which Our Savior was put to death: arms outstretched to “gather in” the sins of humanity, and the vertical beam reaching from earth to Heaven. So even in this symbol of death we contemplate a Death beyond our comprehension, but not beyond our love.

Some think that God also, whom they measure with the measure of their own feelings, judges the same thing that wicked and foolish men judge to be subjects of praise and blame, and that He uses the opinions of men as His rule and measure, not taking into account the fact that, by reason of the ignorance that is in them, every creature falls short of the beauty of God. For He draws all things to life by His Word, from their universal substance and nature. For whether He would have good, He Himself is the Very Good, and remains in Himself; or, whether the beautiful is pleasing to Him, since He Himself is the Only Beautiful, He beholds Himself, holding in no estimation the things which move the admiration of men. That, verily, is to be accounted as in reality the most beautiful and praiseworthy, which God Himself esteems to be beautiful, even though it be contemned and despised by all else–not that which men fancy to be beautiful. Whence it is, that although by this figure He hath willed to deliver the soul from corrupt affections, to the signal putting to shame of the demons, we ought to receive it, and not to speak evil of it, as being that which was given us to deliver us, and set us free from the chains which for our disobedience we incurred. For the Word suffered, being in the flesh affixed to the cross, that He might bring man, who had been deceived by error, to His supreme and godlike majesty, restoring him to that divine life from which he had become alienated. By this figure, in truth, the passions are blunted; the passion of the passions having taken place by the Passion, and the death of death by the death of Christ, He not having been subdued by death, nor overcome by the pains of the Passion. For neither did the Passion cast Him down from His equanimity, nor did death hurt Him, but He was in the passible remaining impassible, and in the mortal remaining immortal, comprehending all that the air, and this middle state, and the heaven above contained, and attempering the mortal to the immortal divinity. Death was vanquished entirely; the flesh being crucified to draw forth its immortality," St. Methodius, Bishop of Philippi, martyred ca. A.D. 311.

Also, once one realizes that Our Lord’s words to “take up your cross and follow me” are words to be heeded and lived daily, one isn’t ashamed of the Cross but glories in the it - along with St. Paul. It would be much more pleasant to think that since Christ died on the Cross one is now free from having to carry one’s own. But the truth is that contemplating HIS Cross brings the unction of the Holy Spirit Who empowers each soul to suffer with Him (1 Cor. 12:26; 2 Cor. 1:5, 4:10; Rom. 8:17; 1 Pet. 4:13ff) with spiritual joy in the midst of those sufferings, giving them salvific value (Col. 1:24).

 

[Kitty_Chan]

phst Catholics !

This is something I have brought up before, to those outside of religion and in particular Christ, there is no distinction between Catholic and Protestant symbol vrs thoughts.

We ALL eat the body and drink the blood, protestant and catholic. At this point as a protestant Im good with that.

(think I am anyways but not to derail and for the discussion here, please think of it from that view.) no distinction, its the blood thats gross, whether symbol or real.

 

[estesbob]

Could you please give me your interpretation of this passage above for me then? Why is it not symbolic? The wine is symbolic of his blood, and the biscuit is symbolic of his flesh is it not? Again, no disrespect. I’m not calling anything satanic I’m just addressing things I have always wondered about and others have mentioned also. Give me some good come backs for me to tell them.

When Jesus spoke symbolicallyhe was always careful to make sure people knew that. if you read on in John 6 you will find that his dfolowers were so disturbed by what he said many of them left him

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

Could you please give me your interpretation of this passage above for me then? Why is it not symbolic? The wine is symbolic of his blood, and the biscuit is symbolic of his flesh is it not? Again, no disrespect. I’m not calling anything satanic I’m just addressing things I have always wondered about and others have mentioned also. Give me some good come backs for me to tell them.

FCEGM & estesbob have answered it for me, I hope their explanation suffices.

 

[estesbob]

phst Catholics !

We ALL eat the body and drink the blood, protestant and catholic. At this point as a protestant Im good with that.

(think I am anyways but not to derail and for the discussion here, please think of it from that view.) no distinction, its the blood thats gross, whether symbol or real.

Not true-Protestants eat bread and drink wine(or grape juice) Catholics consume the actual Body and Bllod of christ. Believe me it is a AWESOME way to start your day. Talk about a “power breakfast”

 

[jemfinch]

Isn’t it just a tad satanic to display the symbol that is identified with the suffering and murder of someone whether it is inverted or not?

He was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.

I’ll be happy to display a symbol of that any day.

Jeremy

 

[sphilomena]

I’m sorry Eden. I don’t mean dis-respect. Your right about me not knowing anything about the Catholic religion. That’s why I’m here.
I stand for unconditional love and god by any name.

I haven’t read any “Catholics are Satanic” websites. I didn’t realize there were such sites. (and by the way, I’m not Christian)
I don’t appreciate anyone attacking people in any way, shape or form.

I just have a hard time with getting my head around this stuff. I don’t like seeing kids getting brought up in any religious way because they don’t get a chance to make up their own mind.

I don’t understand why there is one book that was written (not very long ago) that is the “right one”, while there are numerous others that are even older and have many good things to say but those are the wrong ones.

Everyone has the right to choose what they believe. But I usually find that the majority of people that belong to an organised religion were either born into it and therefore have never really had the chance to know anything else, or they had something horrible happen to them in their lives and they have found “salvation” in Jesus Christ.

If the same person was brought up in a Jewish family for instance, that child would most probably end up Jewish. Or if something horrible happened to them and they were offered help by the Jewish community they would find salvation in that religion. Know what I mean?

It just doesn’t feel very spiritual to me. Religion feels more like the bottle which contains your spirituality. An extension of government. Government for your soul. And the amount of people that have died in the name of religion is massive. Again, I’m not having a go. This is just what comes to my mind. From the things that I know, which is all I can go by. I know there are many good things in the Bible but then you can find these same attributes in many different places. I just believe people should have absolute freedom. Mind, body and soul.

I’ll try to have a look through the site you posted up for me, but there is a mighty wack of it there. It kind of just confuses me…

Thank you for your time. It is much appreciated. God bless.

Here’s another thought. You say that everyone has a right to choose what they believe = that’s often an “argument” against teaching children about their faith. Well, what if we didn’t send children to school and let them decide later what they would want to know and learn? See the pattern?

 

[brianwalden]

I just have a hard time with getting my head around this stuff. I don’t like seeing kids getting brought up in any religious way because they don’t get a chance to make up their own mind.

Do you also not support schooling for children? By your logic we shouldn’t teach them anything until they’re old enough to make up their own mind about it.

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t it just a tad satanic to display the symbol that is identified with the suffering and murder of someone whether it is inverted or not? You say it symbolizes his good will in that he sacrificed himself for your sins or what not but it does seem a bit morbid. Isn’t it a bit like going up to Jackie Onasis with a little sniper rifle pendant around your neck? “Just keepin’ the memory alive”. Jesus!

Why not wear a love heart symbol or something. That WAS the main message anyhow wasn’t it? Love? Not crucifixtion.

Col 2:13-15
13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them through the cross.

I also find it a little disturbing that people symbolically drink his blood and eat his flesh!

You are not alone. The early unbelievers thought that Christians were cannabals on account of this.

 No come on. What's going on here. You don't need any of this behavior.

John 6:53-55
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

No need, unless one wants eternal life!

Also, who exactly was there at St Peter’s murder to document all this stuff? What makes you believe their word?

Peter had a large following, and all the disciples would gather and pray for him whenever he got thrown in jail. You can read about this in the book of Acts.

And why would someone that is about to torture and kill you care about your hang ups about the way in which you are killed.

I imagine the Roman squads in charge of crucifixions would do anything for a lark. They probably wanted to see what it would be like.

Sorry, but it doesn’t add up to me. You don’t have to believe everything you read in “Holy Scriptures”. At some point this stuff was written by human hands. I don’t understand how you can trust this stuff so easily…
Have fun at the “Feast of the Precious Blood”.

Maybe something is wrong with your abacus?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Not true-Protestants eat bread and drink wine(or grape juice) Catholics consume the actual Body and Bllod of christ. Believe me it is a AWESOME way to start your day. Talk about a “power breakfast”

you missed my point

I know that . . .

you know that . . .

but Barbitone does not know that,

I know because I didnt know there was a difference, you have to start with the first part of the topic, blood drinking, and the "Feast of the Precious Blood.

thennnn move on from there to symbol vrs real.

(then theres certain protestants who never thought different and actually “missed” the symbol part and always thought it was real) Im just asking to consider the views, they may not be what you assume.

 

[Barbitone]

Do you also not support schooling for children? By your logic we shouldn’t teach them anything until they’re old enough to make up their own mind about it.

No. The point is to teach them everything and let them decide what they want to believe. That is, let them try everything. All you need to do is provide them the space to learn not *what *to learn. See the pattern?

And yes, actually I don’t think anyone benefits from going to the schools we have. They only teach you what is relevant to the the mind frame they want you to have and the tools you need to work for the system. I only started to truly learn when I finished school.

Schools tell you what to believe.
Religions tell you what to believe.
Government tells you what to believe.
The main stream media tells you what to believe.

This is what I believe.

I believe religion has done more harm than good. How many people have died in the name of this god or that god again…oh yeah MILLIONS!!!. You wouldn’t bother counting anymore.

sigh…and I’ve realized our true nature is spirit not body, that we are eternal beings and God’s love is unconditional and there’s nothing we can ever do to change that, it is only our illusion that we are seperate from God or that we are alone in fact the reality is we are one with God and he loves us.

And I trust you understand that God is not bound by any gender. No?.. More appropriate is something like: “God Is”.

 

[Barbitone]

Here’s another thought. You say that everyone has a right to choose what they believe = that’s often an “argument” against teaching children about their faith. Well, what if we didn’t send children to school and let them decide later what they would want to know and learn? See the pattern?

That’s not an argument, it’s a God given right. “Everyone has a right to choose what they believe.” Sounds like something God would say to me. How can you have faith in something you don’t even know about? Childrens faith?

If we didn’t send children to school and let them decide on their own wisdom and intuitions the world would be a better place. That’s what would happen. That doesn’t mean you would just not teach them anything and shut them of from the knowledge. Of course not. It would be the opposite. They would have access to all sides and therefore have freedom of mind and soul ad expression and would live life the way it is meant to be lived. Instead of being brought up in a box. Controlled thoughts. Controlled spiritual expression…

See the pattern my friend? No? Have some line from the Bible ready to pull out and interprete in a convienient way?

 

[Barbitone]

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

No need, unless one wants eternal life!

Guanophore. You think you are your body? You don’t think that you are spirit? Is spirit not eternal? You ARE eternal. What you are, what you REALLY are is spirit. Pure love. Your body is just the vessel you use to experience this world. Make any sense? You don’t need to eat biscuits and drink wine for that.

I hope you understand that there aren’t little people and little worlds inside your television either. It is a non-physical energy source that is utilising and expressing itself through the medium “TV” allowing you to experience it as “real”…understand?

 

[estesbob]

No. The point is to teach them everything and let them decide what they want to believe. That is, let them try everything. All you need to do is provide them the space to learn not *what *to learn. See the pattern?

That assumes that there are many versons of the Truth and that all beliefs are eqaul. That is not true- I know the Truth-I know the Catholic Church is the one true Church and I know the great joy one has by practicing the Catholic faith(not to mention the salvation obtained therein,) Given this I would be guilty of child abuse if I decided not to raise my Children as Catholic.

Once they become an adult they are free to reject their Catholic Faith if they want.

 

[estesbob]

Guanophore. You think you are your body? You don’t think that you are spirit? Is spirit not eternal? You ARE eternal. What you are, what you REALLY are is spirit. Pure love. Your body is just the vessel you use to experience this world. Make any sense? You don’t need to eat biscuits and drink wine for that.

And you base this on what?

I hope you understand that there aren’t little people and little worlds inside your television either. It is a non-physical energy source that is utilising and expressing itself through the medium “TV” allowing you to experience it as “real”…understand?

Unecessary sarcasm-adds nothing to the debate.

 

[RTMirage]

This is to Barbitone: you say you are respectiful of others religions but I guess you don’t count Christianity as a religion worth respect and espically Catholism since you have at least twice now,been very disrespectiful of our belief that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. You have at least twice called to Body of our Lord a “biscuit”. I find this very offensive. You don’t have to believe, that is your God given choice, but do not be derogatory about my belief in the Body of Christ.

You make the attempt to sound as if you are open minded and just here to ask questions but you seem to be here to deride and degrade a fundamental belief of the Catholic Church just because you don’t believe it.

I don’t know if you have children, it sounds to me that you do not. We imprint our beliefs or lack of them on our children whether we want to or not. That is just the way it is. Children ar not capable of raising themselves. You have to teach right and wrong.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Barbitone

yes, you mentioned you thought the upside down cross was satanic. So do you consider yourself christian? if so do you have a demonination.

That could help prespective and get discussion if you want.

 

[toaslan]

If we didn’t send children to school and let them decide on their own wisdom and intuitions the world would be a better place… They would have access to all sides and therefore have freedom of mind and soul ad expression and would live life the way it is meant to be lived. Instead of being brought up in a box. Controlled thoughts. Controlled spiritual expression…

Hi! I have a thought for Barbitone: does a parent not give physical life to a baby? And then have the duty to feed, diaper, shelter, bathe, etc., the baby–the duty to support its physical life?

How much more then, is it a parent’s duty to support the baby’s spiritual life (including his intellectual life)?

You yourself think humans are more spiritual than physical, if I understand you. And everyone agrees it is essential to nourish the baby’s body. How much more essential, then, is it to nourish his soul. For the soul is higher than the body (though it takes both to make us human).

No parent would sit his hungry toddler down amidst an array of edible, inedible and poisonous “foods” and let the baby eat whatever. Likewise, no parent worth the name would let a child poison himself on spiritual/intellectual toxins.

I would be interested to know your definition of freedom–such that a child would not be, as you posted, "brought up in a box. Controlled thoughts. Controlled spiritual expression."

It is one thing to be a tyrant. It is another to be a guide. It is yet another to be neutral to the direction a child is taking.

God bless.

 

[lizaanne]

Barbitone

yes, you mentioned you thought the upside down cross was satanic. So do you consider yourself christian? if so do you have a demonination.

That could help prespective and get discussion if you want.

Read the thread - this person is not Christian and has stated that more than once.

~Liza