Can someone please explain this to me?

[Barbitone]

That assumes that there are many versons of the Truth and that all beliefs are eqaul. That is not true- I know the Truth-I know the Catholic Church is the one true Church and I know the great joy one has by practicing the Catholic faith(not to mention the salvation obtained therein,) Given this I would be guilty of child abuse if I decided not to raise my Children as Catholic.

Once they become an adult they are free to reject their Catholic Faith if they want.

No. You BELIEVE that the Catholic Church is the one true church. To say it it would be child abuse not to bring your kids up as Catholic is just…don’t get me started.

Once they are grown up they may be able to reject their “faith” if they want, except by then they have known no other view of the world and themselves, they have a bias view. By then their whole lofe would be geared towards Catholicism and would be all the really know…don’t you get this?

 

[Barbitone]

And you base this on what?

The totallity of my experience in this world. Why what do you base your beliefs on? A book?

Unecessary sarcasm-adds nothing to the debate.

It was not sarcasm. It was a metaphor for the nature of spirit. Understand metaphor?

 

[estesbob]

No. You BELIEVE that the Catholic Church is the one true church. To say it it would be child abuse not to bring your kids up as Catholic is just…don’t get me started.

Once they are grown up they may be able to reject their “faith” if they want, except by then they have known **no other view of the world and themselves, they have a bias view. By then their whole life would be geared towards Catholicism and would be all the really know…**don’t you get this?

I hope so. It would be terrible if I did not educate them in the most important facet of their life. It would be like not allowing them to learn how to to talk so they could grow up and pick the language they want to speak. If left it to their own they might end up with the “fuzzy” spirituality we see elicited by some in this thread. Worst yet they may actually believe the best way to validate their fuzzy beliefs is to tear down other beliefs.

 

[estesbob]

It was not sarcasm. It was a metaphor for the nature of spirit. Understand metaphor?

I note you ignored the first part of my question. on what do you base this:

Guanophore. You think you are your body? You don’t think that you are spirit? Is spirit not eternal? You ARE eternal. What you are, what you REALLY are is spirit. Pure love. Your body is just the vessel you use to experience this world. Make any sense? You don’t need to eat biscuits and drink wine for that

 

[Barbitone]

This is to Barbitone: you say you are respectiful of others religions but I guess you don’t count Christianity as a religion worth respect and espically Catholism since you have at least twice now,been very disrespectiful of our belief that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. You have at least twice called to Body of our Lord a “biscuit”. I find this very offensive. You don’t have to believe, that is your God given choice, but do not be derogatory about my belief in the Body of Christ.

You make the attempt to sound as if you are open minded and just here to ask questions but you seem to be here to deride and degrade a fundamental belief of the Catholic Church just because you don’t believe it.

"I don’t know if you have children, it sounds to me that you do not. We imprint our beliefs or lack of them on our children whether we want to or not. That is just the way it is. Children ar not capable of raising themselves. You have to teach right and wrong.

I’m sorry but I just don’t get it. It’s not the “body of your lord” thou is it. It’s not actually, literally flesh is it. I’m not trying to disrespect anyone. You choose the way you take it. Laugh off my comments if you know better. You don’t have to take offense.

“You have to teach right and wrong.” PLEEEASE. Right and wrong are judgments. Personal views. I’m not saying I’m right or wrong by the way. I never did. I’m just telling you what I believe. It could very well be wrong but I’m still going to tell you. This is the way you should present your side too though. But you don’t. You just believe that you are “right”.

 

[Barbitone]

I note you ignored the first part of my question. on what do you base this:

Guanophore. You think you are your body? You don’t think that you are spirit? Is spirit not eternal? You ARE eternal. What you are, what you REALLY are is spirit. Pure love. Your body is just the vessel you use to experience this world. Make any sense? You don’t need to eat biscuits and drink wine for that

sorry, no I didn’t I just messed up the quote box. Read inside the quote box.

 

[Barbitone]

Barbitone

yes, you mentioned you thought the upside down cross was satanic. So do you consider yourself christian? if so do you have a demonination.

That could help prespective and get discussion if you want.

I did no such thing. Read it properly. No I do not consider myself Christian.

 

[estesbob]

"You have to teach right and wrong." PLEEEASE. Right and wrong are judgments. Personal views. I’m not saying I’m right or wrong by the way. I never did. I’m just telling you what I believe. It could very well be wrong but I’m still going to tell you. This is the way you should present your side too though. But you don’t. You just believe that you are “right”.

And you base this on what?

 

[mercygate]

That’s not an argument, it’s a God given right. “Everyone has a right to choose what they believe.” Sounds like something God would say to me. How can you have faith in something you don’t even know about? Childrens faith?

If we didn’t send children to school and let them decide on their own wisdom and intuitions the world would be a better place. That’s what would happen. That doesn’t mean you would just not teach them anything and shut them of from the knowledge. Of course not. It would be the opposite. They would have access to all sides and therefore have freedom of mind and soul ad expression and would live life the way it is meant to be lived. Instead of being brought up in a box. Controlled thoughts. Controlled spiritual expression…

See the pattern my friend? No? Have some line from the Bible ready to pull out and interprete in a convienient way?

Rousseau made your argument in the 18th Century and it didn’t work any better then than it does now. There is a lot to be said for parents who have lived and thought taking responsibility for teaching their children to think. It is extremely wasteful to expect every person to invent the wheel for himself.

 

[estesbob]

sorry, no I didn’t I just messed up the quote box. Read inside the quote box.

So your spiritual beleifs are based soley on what you have discerned for yourslef.? I am sure you find this to be unique and admirable but in reality you have embraced plain old garden varitey Gnosticism. There is no sense in debating you becuase you ignore (and mock) 2,000 yeqars of teachings and traditions becuase “your knowledge” has proved it all wrong. You have met god and he is you.

 

[mercygate]

“You have to teach right and wrong.” PLEEEASE. Right and wrong are judgments. Personal views. I’m not saying I’m right or wrong by the way. I never did. I’m just telling you what I believe. It could very well be wrong but I’m still going to tell you. This is the way you should present your side too though. But you don’t. You just believe that you are “right”.

Thinking people are capable of reasoning to positions of “right” and “wrong” that are, indeed judgments. But they are judgments based on thinking that is consonant with reality. All you need for starters is agreement to the fact that we exist. After that, it is entirely possible to achieve a valid understanding of right and wrong.

You say that people don’t think for themselves. Well, in this day and age, the deconstructed all-values-are-equal school of operations is the going entity in schools. I would say that you could liberate yourself from a lot of mental entrapment by taking a good course in natural law.

 

[Barbitone]

I have a thought for Barbitone: does a parent not give physical life to a baby? And then have the duty to feed, diaper, shelter, bathe, etc., the baby–the duty to support its physical life?

Absolutlry, but none of those things require “faith” or beliefs or judgment.

How much more then, is it a parent’s duty to support the baby’s spiritual life (including his intellectual life)?

The baby IS spiritual. And support is great. Just don’t tell them what to believe. Tell them that this is ehat you believe but they may take it or leave it. Let them shop around.

You yourself think humans are more spiritual than physical, if I understand you. And everyone agrees it is essential to nourish the baby’s body. How much more essential, then, is it to nourish his soul. For the soul is higher than the body (though it takes both to make us human).

I think we are spiritual being having a human experience. Yes. The soul needs only to be kept free. It needs nothing. It is immortal. Your body is entirely different because it is mortal.

No parent would sit his hungry toddler down amidst an array of edible, inedible and poisonous “foods” and let the baby eat whatever. Likewise, no parent worth the name would let a child poison himself on spiritual/intellectual toxins.

This is just obvious. in the literal sense. But does not transfer to a spiritual metaphor. It’s not the same. Your just twisting words now…

I would be interested to know your definition of freedom–such that a child would not be, as you posted, "brought up in a box. Controlled thoughts. Controlled spiritual expression."

I could but it would take a while. I might come back to that…

 

[estesbob]

.

The baby IS spiritual. And support is great. Just don’t tell them what to believe. Tell them that this is ehat you believe but they may take it or leave it. Let them shop around.

…

If i do htis will my children end up as wise and perceptive as you?

 

[Eden]

So, right and wrong are judgments, as in they are left to each individual to decide? Wow. I hope no one judges it “right” to steal your wallet.

 

[TOP]

Absolutlry, but none of those things require “faith” or beliefs or judgment.

The baby IS spiritual. And support is great. Just don’t tell them what to believe. Tell them that this is ehat you believe but they may take it or leave it. Let them shop around.

I think we are spiritual being having a human experience. Yes. The soul needs only to be kept free. It needs nothing. It is immortal. Your body is entirely different because it is mortal.

This is just obvious. in the literal sense. But does not transfer to a spiritual metaphor. It’s not the same. Your just twisting words now…

I could but it would take a while. I might come back to that…

Didn’t some guy tell us how to raise our kids a couple of months ago? I declare this thread taking over, Pirates rule!

 

[Eden]

barbitone:

Let them shop around

That’s really poor logic there. You’re not a parent, are you?

How about telling them that “we believe” it is dangerous to fly a kite near power lines, but you can decide for yourself?

“We believe” that swimming in a rip-tide is dangerous, but you can decide for yourself?

Sorry, Barbitone. This is just very immature thinking on your part.

If you expected your relativism to find a willing audience here, you’re mistaken. Have you read what our Pope has to say about relativism? It made the headlines when he spoke about it in his Papal Installation Mass in 2005. He referred to it as the “Dictatorship of Relativism”.

But he had written about the problem well before he was Pope:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/RATZRELA.HTM

Secular source on Pope Benedict XVI and relativism:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4460673.stm

 

[So_Catholic]

The baby IS spiritual. And support is great. Just don’t tell them what to believe. Tell them that this is ehat you believe but they may take it or leave it. Let them shop around.

Your right you shouldnt just tell somone what to believe, you need to tell them why otherwords you fail them as there parent.

So many Catholics are falling away in my generation because they were told to believe but wernt told WHY to believe…

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I did no such thing. Read it properly. No I do not consider myself Christian.

sorry I missed the time at the beggining you said you were not christian.

Yet you say God bless and are concerned with the upside down cross on the chair being satanic, why are you asking to begin with? As these are “christian” concerns. That is what I was attempting to ask. Unless you dont have any particular thoughts then please just say so. I assume nothing.

 

[cecilia97]

The baby IS spiritual. And support is great. Just don’t tell them what to believe. Tell them that this is ehat you believe but they may take it or leave it. Let them shop around.

Thanks for telling us what you believe. If I were a parent I would choose not to take your advice, but to leave it. I would shop around some more.

 

[toaslan]

The baby IS spiritual. And support is great. Just don’t tell them what to believe. Tell them that this is what you believe but they may take it or leave it. Let them shop around.

If the parent has no wisdom himself, then he should not attempt to guide the child in higher matters, you are right. However, if he has some wisdom, he should give it to the child, because the parent always gives the best that he has to his child. Right?

toaslan:

everyone agrees it is essential to nourish the baby’s body. How much more essential, then, is it to nourish his soul. For the soul is higher than the body…

Barbitone:

I think we are spiritual being having a human experience. Yes. The soul needs only to be kept free. It needs nothing.

On the contrary, the soul is both intellect and will. Her intellect needs intellectual formation–how to think, for example (that is why there are books on logic). Her will needs training–to embrace what is good and turn from what is evil, regardless of the practical consequences.

We know that both the intellect and the will need help because we see intellectual error: misunderstanding, false logic, lies, ignorance. We see bad will–loving and serving evil.

As Christians, we further know that these weaknesses of intellect and will are due to Original Sin–there is an original cause underlying what common sense tells us is the human condition.

So the good parent provides not only physical food but especially spiritual food to the infant, who is hungry and in need of both.

Barbitone:

(the soul) is immortal. Your body is entirely different because it is mortal.

yes, Catholics believe the soul is immortal. We believe death is the separation of soul from body, which dissolves into its elements in the absence of that which gave it its shape and definition. We believe that until the Second Coming, the faithful dead are soul without body; when Christ comes again, our bodies will be glorified and reunited with our souls, just as it was for Our Lord. And, Catholics believe, only then will we be truly “ourselves” again. For humans are essentially hybrid–an embodied soul, or an ensouled body. To be human is to be BOTH body AND (eternal/rational) soul.

toaslan:

No parent would sit his hungry toddler down amidst an array of edible, inedible and poisonous “foods” and let the baby eat whatever. Likewise, no parent worth the name would let a child poison himself on spiritual/intellectual toxins.

barbitone:

(this) does not transfer to a spiritual metaphor. It’s not the same. Your just twisting words now…

Perhaps you think I am twisting words because you resist the Catholic understanding of human nature–to be embodied eternal soul. If you would indulge me for a moment–IF you were to accept that understanding, THEN would you think it was twisting words?