Can someone please explain this to me?

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estesbob said:
And you base this on what?
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Okay. Give me the definition of right and give me the definition of wrong…

The way I see it. Right and wrong are only relative to your perspective. They do not exist outside yourself. Outside your perception things just are; God is.
 
mercygate said:
Rousseau made your argument in the 18th Century and it didn’t work any better then than it does now. There is a lot to be said for parents who have lived and thought taking responsibility for teaching their children to think. It is extremely wasteful to expect every person to invent the wheel for himself.
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Again, this isn’t what I’m saying. Your not comprehending my statement. By all means tell them whatever you like…understand? Just don’t tell them that that’s how it is. Tell them that’s how you interpret it to be. And let them know that they are free to make up their own mind. If they ask a question, answer them as best you can, with love. But ask them if it feels right to them. Believe it or not. Kids aren’t stupid. They know a lot more than you think. If you just give them the chance to think for themselves. It’s just a small perceptual shift. Teach them how to think, yes. Not WHAT to think. That’s up to them to decide. They will decide anyway. If what you tell them rings true and they feel it in their soul then they will end up believing what you believe anyway wont they.
 
Barbitone said:
Again, this isn’t what I’m saying. Your not comprehending my statement. By all means tell them whatever you like…understand? Just don’t tell them that that’s how it is. Tell them that’s how you interpret it to be. And let them know that they are free to make up their own mind. If they ask a question, answer them as best you can, with love. But ask them if it feels right to them. Believe it or not. Kids aren’t stupid. They know a lot more than you think. If you just give them the chance to think for themselves. It’s just a small perceptual shift. Teach them how to think, yes. Not WHAT to think. That’s up to them to decide. They will decide anyway. If what you tell them rings true and they feel it in their soul then they will end up believing what you believe anyway wont they.
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How do you propose that a child think for himself if he has not been trained to think? What is the fundamental premise from which thought begins?

If you agree that you exist, I can demonstrate through reason that right and wrong are indeed knowable and that what “feels” right often is, although feelings are demonstrably no sure guide to truth.

I posit that your view that truth is relative and is determined only by what goes on in my own head is every bit as much a product of what you have been taught as is any dogmatic faith-teaching any Christian ever received as a child based on the dictum: “That’s how it is.”

How much exposure have you had to Natural Law thinking? You seem to be very young – I’m guessing under 18. I recommend the book, : Straight Answers for Young CatholicsWhere Did I Come From? Where Am I Going? How Do I Get There?
Charles E. Rice, Theresa Farnan, Ellen Rice (Editor)images.barnesandnoble.com/gresources/cleardot.gif.

It will give you a variant scheme from the one you have been exposed to by which to approach the problem of thought, knowledge, and ethics.
 
Barbitone said:
Again, this isn’t what I’m saying. Your not comprehending my statement. By all means tell them whatever you like…understand? Just don’t tell them that that’s how it is. Tell them that’s how you interpret it to be. And let them know that they are free to make up their own mind. If they ask a question, answer them as best you can, with love. But ask them if it feels right to them. Believe it or not. Kids aren’t stupid. They know a lot more than you think. If you just give them the chance to think for themselves. It’s just a small perceptual shift. Teach them how to think, yes. Not WHAT to think. That’s up to them to decide. They will decide anyway. If what you tell them rings true and they feel it in their soul then they will end up believing what you believe anyway wont they.
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OK 😉 . Catholics interpret reality and derive their notions of right and wrong based on reason, intellect, will and nature. Wanna know more?
 
Barbitone said:
Schools tell you what to believe.
Religions tell you what to believe.
Government tells you what to believe.
The main stream media tells you what to believe.

This is what I believe.
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But you managed to overcome all that forced belief. So apparently it can be done.
 
Barbitone said:
Okay. Give me the definition of right and give me the definition of wrong…

The way I see it. Right and wrong are only relative to your perspective. They do not exist outside yourself. Outside your perception things just are; God is.
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So the Third Reich wasn’t really bad after all?
 
Barbitone said:
. . .

The way I see it. Right and wrong are only relative to your perspective. They do not exist outside yourself. Outside your perception things just are; God is.
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Is anything right or wrong from GOD’s “perspective”? Does He let us know His thought on the matter? Does He reveal Himself?
 
VociMike said:
So the Third Reich wasn’t really bad after all?
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Not if you’re a nazi. My judgement on it would be that it was bad. Some people would disagree. Therefore; good\bad=relative to perspective.
 
How do you propose that a child think for himself if he has not been trained to think? What is the fundamental premise from which thought begins?
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By all means give your kids the tools in which to think for themselves. I have said this already. The fundamental premise from which thought begins is consciousness. Which children most certainly have. Indeed plenty of.
If you agree that you exist, I can demonstrate through reason that right and wrong are indeed knowable and that what “feels” right often is, although feelings are demonstrably no sure guide to truth.
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Getting deeper into this subject. You could say that there are life affirming thoughts and life denying thoughts. So life has the natural tendency to choose life. So you could say this what is right. Life affirming thoughts(and actions follow of course) So in most cases this is what sets what is right. For life and the beings that have it. But if it was something like for instance “are drugs good or bad?” well that would depend on your desired outcome. You can’t just say drugs are bad because they also help people and you cant just say they are good because they also harm people. So this sort of thing is relative to your particular perspective and desired outcome of your experience here on Earth.
 
Barbitone said:
By all means give your kids the tools in which to think for themselves. I have said this already. The fundamental premise from which thought begins is consciousness. Which children most certainly have. Indeed plenty of.

Getting deeper into this subject. You could say that there are life affirming thoughts and life denying thoughts. So life has the natural tendency to choose life. So you could say this what is right. Life affirming thoughts(and actions follow of course) So in most cases this is what sets what is right. For life and the beings that have it. But if it was something like for instance “are drugs good or bad?” well that would depend on your desired outcome. You can’t just say drugs are bad because they also help people and you cant just say they are good because they also harm people. So this sort of thing is relative to your particular perspective and desired outcome of your experience here on Earth.
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Barby, you’ve taken some flak on this thread, and I don’t want to add to it, but if this is an example of what you call “going deeper into this subject” then we have some work to do.

Seriously: have a look at that book I recommended. It’s about thinking.
 
Barbitone said:
Your full awareness of it is all you need to overcome it. Yes it can certainly be done.

Free your mind.👍
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And yet your own views are very much attached to the present western mindset. Your own views are no more the product of independent thinking than any religious believers.
 
Barbitone said:
Well that’s great, if it were true…
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It is true that Catholic thinking interprets reality and derive its notions of right and wrong based on reason, intellect, will and nature.

Seriously: Do you think that a thought-system that boasts such brilliant exponents as Augustine and Aquinas and virtually invented the science of astronomy and genetics, would be some kind of weenie operation that can’t mount a serious rationale for belief?

Trivia point: There are 35 craters on the moon named for Jesuit astronomers. You are not dealing with a turnip truck here.
 
*Here’s a riddle for you all;

ready…*

What is reality?

And please…try to answer the question without directing me to a book.
 
elvisman said:
I found a site that acknowledged that St. Paul was indeed beheaded but St. Peter was NOT crucified upside-down, “as Catholics claim” because it wasn’t corroborated with Scripture (as if the Bible is the ONLY historical text!!).
Yet they make NO mention of the fact that St. Paul’s death is not recorded in scripture either!!
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The only New Testament reference to Peter’s death is Joh 21:18,19, where the account has Jesus saying to Peter:
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When you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you where you do not wish to go.” 19 (He said this to indicate the kind of death by which he would glorify God.) (NRSV)
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The only New Testament mention of Peter even being in Rome is in 1 Peter 5:13: “Your sister church in Babylon … sends you greeting.” Babylon was a code-name for Rome. This was intended to represent Peter as writing from Rome, where tradition says he was martyred upside down. Many of the leading scholars today do not believe that 1 Peter (or 2 Peter) was written by Peter, but it does indicate that Christians in the second century believed Peter had visited Rome.
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Clement was a first century Christian who was a co-worker of Paul. Tradition says he was ordained as Bishop of Rome by Peter. His known writings are included in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, writings by church “fathers” prior to the 325 A.D. Council of Nicaea, at which the Nicene Creed was formulated and became dogma. 1 Clem 5:1-6:1 refers to the First Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, chapter 5:1 to chapter 6:1. The passage from 1 Clement provides the earliest account of the martyrdom of both Peter and Paul.
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But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience. To these men who spent their lives in the practice of holiness, there is to be added a great multitude of the elect, who, having through envy endured many indignities and tortures, furnished. us with a most excellent example.
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Other early references to Peter’s having been in Rome are in Ignatius’ Letter to the Romans 4:3 and in Eusebius’ History 2.25.8 (quoting Gaius, which account is at least questionable). It was Eusebius (History 3:1.2, quoting Origen) who also wrote that “Peter at the last came to Rome and was crucified head-downwards.”
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👍

Frankly, the Bible does not record the death of Peter. So, we only have history to fall back on. And, that history plainly says Peter was upsidedown on the cross.

Since, the Bible does not record the death of Peter, do you believe that Peter is still alive on earth?

Since, the Bible takes note that during worship ( Rev 6 -7 ) christians wore robes and the bible does not command us to wear dresses, pants, nor even underwear in worship, should Christians only wear robes in worship?

And, someone pointed out that the bible does not record people going to the bathroom in scripture, should we then not go the bathroom when we need to? or is it a sin to go to the bathroom?
 
By what authority do you say we must teach children to think for themselves? Maybe, we don’t want children to think for themselves — just maybe that is the Right thing to do. Maybe, it is Wrong to teach children to think for themselves. What is your authority to say it is right or wrong? If you are your own authority, then my opinion is just as vaild as yours. What if I decide that anyone who does not hold to my opinion should be killed? By what authority can you override my opinion? Mere force? ( see plato ).
 
Truth really is absolute so yes some opinions do overide other opinions.

What’s so hard to understand about that?

Who started the whole “My opinion is just as right as yours and how I Choose to relate to God is just as valid as what you say about relating to God”.

Can you say the same the same person who said “You will have knowledge of good and Evil just as God does”?

Just a different variationn form the same old liar.

There was yes unique authority then–there was authority during the Old Testament–there was authority as Jesus walked the Earth–and there was authority after He ascended and after all the original disciples died.

And through all of those eras there were always people saying “My opinion is good as yours and who are you to quote from authority?”

Throughout all human history people have either obeyed authority or established their own authority.

As Ecclesiastes states “There is nothing new under the sun”.
 
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