Can someone who rejects the Gospel be saved?

[Gorgias]

I read it.

So, what’s your response to the following quotes?

For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.

So: those who are not members of the Church nevertheless may be saved.

With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”

That means by which salvation is achieved are not only not simply “preaching”, but are also defined as “ways known to [God] himself”.

Sure doesn’t sound like “reject preaching and you go to hell,” which is the personal interpretation to which you cling.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

That means by which salvation is achieved are not only not simply “preaching”, but are also defined as “ways known to [God] himself”.

Sure doesn’t sound like “reject preaching and you go to hell,” which is the personal interpretation to which you cling.

You realize your two quotes are not all there is to that document. There is this also:

With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.93 One understands then that, following the Lord’s command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life ( Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself

and

Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom,98 must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Gorgias]

You realize your two quotes are not all there is to that document.

I understand. They’re the parts that are relevant to the current discussion, though.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I understand. They’re the parts that are relevant to the current discussion, though

But only part of the truth (no wink)

 

[Gorgias]

But only part of the truth

The relevant part to this discussion, though.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The relevant part to this discussion, though.

So, is the whole document

 

[Gorgias]

So, is the whole document

Not so. The point we’re debating is whether it’s true that those who do not respond to preaching – that is, those who do not believe in Christ – are condemned. The passages I quoted demonstrate that the Church teaches that they are not condemned, but that they have access to salvation. In other words, these quotes prove that Ammi’s assertion is untrue – namely, that the Church does not teach what I’m claiming she does.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The point we’re debating is whether it’s true that those who do not respond to preaching – that is, those who do not believe in Christ – are condemned.

The OP question is regarding those who reject the Gospel after hearing it, not those who have not heard it, heard it differently maybe from protestism or are of a different religion with some aspect of belief in God.

Neither of your quotes answer the question, what happens to someone who hears the Gospel and then rejects it.

After having read the document, I realize even more how important it is for us to be witnesses of Christ and the Catholic church.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

I read it.

So, what’s your response to the following quotes?

For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.

So: those who are not members of the Church nevertheless may be saved.

With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”

That means by which salvation is achieved are not only not simply “preaching”, but are also defined as “ways known to [God] himself”.

Sure doesn’t sound like “reject preaching and you go to hell,” which is the personal interpretation to which you cling.

This is adressing people of non Christian religions, who do not know the Gospel.

 

[EndTimes]

This is adressing people of non Christian religions, who do not know the Gospel.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight,
but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Ammi]

This is the Law, not the Gospel

 

[EndTimes]

This is the Law, not the Gospel

The essence of God’s Command re: Salvation -
as is also declared in the Gospel -
encompass both law & Prophets

Love God, Love Neighbor… Is in the hearts / minds - of all

Rabbi Jesus brought the Understanding to Perfection…

 

[englands123]

Yes, of course.

John 12

If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.

That passage seems pretty straightforward .

 

[EndTimes]

That passage seems pretty straightforward .

And… Judgement sits squarely upon Obedience or not - to God’s Command to Love in Action…

 

[MagdalenaRita]

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law…

Here and the rest of the passage Paul is addressing those who are trying to follow OT Law.

Command re: Salvation -
as is also declared in the Gospel -
encompass both law & Prophets

Love God, Love Neighbor… Is in the hearts / minds - of all

This is very true, Jesus did come to fulfill the law and prophets and we are to love one another in action and the big part of that action is spreading the gospel, receiving it and be baptized.

Judgement sits squarely upon Obedience or not - to God’s Command to Love in Action…

Yes agree again.

 

[Gorgias]

This is adressing people of non Christian religions, who do not know the Gospel.

Does it say “those who do not know the Gospel” (and by that, I presume you mean “those who have not heard the Gospel”)? If not, then you’re reading your own assertions into it.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Ever since I can remember growing up as a Catholic when hearing that the Catholic church is the means of salvation someone would ask, “what about the guy in Africa who can’t hear the gospel or what about the guy on a desert island or the Amish wife who can’t leave her family”, this is who those two quotes are addressing. Those who through no fault of their own have not heard the gospel and those who through no fault of their own can not respond by coming physically into the Church: invincible ignorance.

A little farther on, then Cardinal Ratzinger addresses what happens to those who have heard the gospel and are in the Church but do not respond to Christ in obedience or reject Him.:

However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”

So then realizing what he is saying above to those who hear and know the gospel, we realize we need to obey and not reject Him.
Cardinal Ratzinger’s next statement:

One understands then that, following the Lord’s command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life

As I said above, this document has convinced me even more of the importance of not rejecting Christ. Rejection of Christ puts one’s very soul in danger.

 

[Gorgias]

Those who through no fault of their own have not heard the gospel and those who through no fault of their own can not respond by coming physically into the Church: invincible ignorance.

Yes! I agree!

Yet, Ammi does not. According to his personal interpretation of Scripture, the Amish wife in your example is condemned to hell, since she heard the Gospel message of the Church but did not respond to it! Let’s extrapolate that example a little, as well: what about the guy in Africa who hears the Gospel but is unconvinced? Is he condemned?

A little farther on, then Cardinal Ratzinger addresses what happens to those who have heard the gospel and are in the Church but do not respond to Christ in obedience

Right, but that’s not the entirety of the case: those who have heard but who do not subsequently believe are also covered by Ammi’s distortion of the message!

As I said above, this document has convinced me even more of the importance of not rejecting Christ. Rejection of Christ puts one’s very soul in danger.

Yes – if you are not invincibly ignorant, oh boy! (Yet, some would overly-rigorously apply a definition of “invincible ignorance” which excludes more people than the Church says it does.)

 

[Crusader13]

I think the understanding is quite clear, you can’t reject the gospel and attain salvation.

People like to talk about individuals and particular cases where it could be possible, but those are known only to God and He can show mercy on whomever He chooses.

Our concern should be on preaching and sharing the faith with everyone who doesn’t believe, not trying to find rare and random instances where we can show people that they don’t really have to believe in order to attain salvation. That’s false and dangerous.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Amish wife in your example is condemned to hell, since she heard the Gospel message of the Church but did not respond to it!

I didn’t say she did not respond to it but that she could not physically come into the Catholic church because she could not leave her family. Doesn’t mean she can not accept the message, make spiritual communions, pray the rosary, call out to the Blessed Mother for help and the saints. My grandmother wasn’t Amish but that is what she had to do and that is how she handed down the faith to her children, at night, secretly.

what about the guy in Africa who hears the Gospel but is unconvinced? Is he condemned?

It does not mean he is condemned forever as long as he is alive but yes, he is not choosing salvation at that time and if he continues on the path of rejecting the gospel message then yes his soul would be in danger should he die. It is up to us as Catholics to pray for those who are rejecting the gospel message, for grace to help them understand.

Right, but that’s not the entirety of the case: those who have heard but who do not subsequently believe are also covered by Ammi’s distortion of the message!

So, I think you are using Ammi as an excuse to say everyone goes to heaven whether they believe or not. I agree with Ammi, it is Church teaching that those who do not believe but reject the gospel after hearing it in it’s fullness from the Catholic church, and die in that state, their soul is in danger and as long as they are alive, they have not chosen the path of grace.

Yet, some would overly-rigorously apply a definition of “invincible ignorance” which excludes more people than the Church says it does

Once I heard on Catholic Answers that it is the opposite, people want to apply invincible ignorance to more people than they should and invincible ignorance is a very thin line to walk.

As I said reading the document you posted has convinced me even more the importance of spreading the Gospel and that the Catholic church is the one true Church. It is actually a very convicting document.