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nfinke
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I don’t think it’s possible to “not believe” in something if you don’t even know what it is you’re not believing. A sin has to be a choice, and true ignorance isn’t a choice.
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Ammi
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I read the declaration Dominus Lesus.
From it:
“Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God. One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments. Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors, constitute an obstacle to salvation.”
“…Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom,98 must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.”
The other books are not Catholic Teaching, and still I doubt they support your assertions.
From it:
“Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God. One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments. Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors, constitute an obstacle to salvation.”
“…Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom,98 must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.”
The other books are not Catholic Teaching, and still I doubt they support your assertions.
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Ammi
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Are you talking about a Creator in general, or in the Gospel revelation of Jesus?
The former, we have a natural ability to know and a moral duty to seek. The later, if discovered by reading or hearing of, presents a point of choice. We either believe the Gospel message or we dont. So long as the person is capable of intellectual reason and a genuine Gospel message related unto understanding, the matter is of the heart. And the heart accepts or rejects.
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MagdalenaRita
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Yes I agree, one has to hear the gospel message in order to reject or not believe it.
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Ammi
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Read every single Church Teaching?
I dont believe one exists.
I dont believe one exists.
Crusader13
New member
I think the problem lies within trying to define what it means to truly hear and understand what the gospel is. Too often people will use the invincible ignorance teaching to justify everyone who rejects the truth.
Yet, there is nothing to point to, no biblical example or benchmark to judge every case of ignorance as it pertains to a persons salvation and understanding of the necessity of the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ.
I believe that is why the Church never focused on trying to determine who was saved by invincible ignorance, because it’s something known only to God. We are commanded to go out and teach so that way nobody remains in ignorance.
Yet, there is nothing to point to, no biblical example or benchmark to judge every case of ignorance as it pertains to a persons salvation and understanding of the necessity of the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ.
I believe that is why the Church never focused on trying to determine who was saved by invincible ignorance, because it’s something known only to God. We are commanded to go out and teach so that way nobody remains in ignorance.
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Ammi
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I agree. Though I dont think there is a problem.
And I believe many do think (and so act as though its true) that not believing is ok, because think because a non believer probably just doesnt know that it’s the truth. And that if they dont know it’s the truth, what is important is if they are nice and dont do anything terrible.
That is a strange notion, to be a good person who rejects the heart of the goodness of God!
That’s why it’s so important to believe and more so, be very grateful! It is the very love of God, forgiving through His sacrificial life and death in order to save.
No one can hear this related to them and reject it, without insulting God’s Sacred heart.
And this is why you wont find Catholic Teaching offending the Gospel in this manner (suggesting more mercy than the Gospel is yet to come!)
And I believe many do think (and so act as though its true) that not believing is ok, because think because a non believer probably just doesnt know that it’s the truth. And that if they dont know it’s the truth, what is important is if they are nice and dont do anything terrible.
That is a strange notion, to be a good person who rejects the heart of the goodness of God!
That’s why it’s so important to believe and more so, be very grateful! It is the very love of God, forgiving through His sacrificial life and death in order to save.
No one can hear this related to them and reject it, without insulting God’s Sacred heart.
And this is why you wont find Catholic Teaching offending the Gospel in this manner (suggesting more mercy than the Gospel is yet to come!)
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EndTimes
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I disagree w/the commentary.
There’s nothing in Scriptures which would indicate that the entire world of people repented BEFORE the Flood…
Additionally, 1 Peter 4 - continues on this note with:
They will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the Gospel was Preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Full Repentance for Purity - exists even for us… as a necessity for Entering God’s Kingdom
If we are not Fully Pure when we die - in spirit we go to Puratory for Purification…
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Ammi
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It doesn’t need to imply the whole world repented before the flood… but that they too were shown the Gospel news, and able to turn on account of the love of the Son.
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EndTimes
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Let’s face it…
Scriptures declare that the whole world were sinning right up to the time that the Flood
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
They were shown the Gospel by Jesus - after His Crucifixionl.
He Jesus - was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water
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MagdalenaRita
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So perhaps I wasn’t clear but I didn’t indicate nor does the commentary indicate that the entire world repented before the flood but this is what Haydock Catholic Bible commentary says"
The true and common interpretation of this place seems to be, that the soul of Christ, after the separation from the body and before the resurrection, descended to a place in the interior parts of the earth, called hell in that which we call the apostles’ creed, (sometimes called Abraham’s bosom, sometimes Limbus Patrum, a place where were detained all the souls of the patriarchs, prophets, and just men, as it were in prison) and preached to these spirits in this prison; i.e. brought them this happy news, that he who was their Redeemer was now come to be their deliverer, and that at his glorious ascension they should enter with him into heaven, where none could enter before our Redeemer, who opened as it were heaven’s gates. Among these were many who had been formerly at first incredulous in the time of Noe, who would not take warning from his preparing and building the ark, but it may be reasonably supposed that many of them repented of their sins when they saw the danger approaching, and before they perished by the waters of the deluge, so that they died at least not guilty of eternal damnation; because, though they were sinners, yet they worshipped the true God, for we do not find any proofs of idolatry before the deluge.
and 1 Peter 4
for this cause (i.e. because Christ is judge of all) he descended to the place where the souls of the dead were, and preached to them, shewing himself, their Redeemer, who judgeth and condemneth those who had lived according to the flesh, but gave life to those who had lived well, or done penance according to the spirit of God.
I agree we must repent, believe and do good works to enter God’s kingdom and that purgatory exists for the purification of those who obtain salvation, prior to entering heaven. I do also believe Christ when He said there would be those who go to eternal punishment, so I am not sure if we are just misunderstanding each other or if you are saying these passages indicate that everyone goes to heaven? Not sure?
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Ammi
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Yes, it seems (this is a mysterious passage) that Peter was saying Jesus went to preach to people of old, so that they might turn, in heart, to God on account of the revelation of the Gospel.
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EndTimes
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I hold on tight to what Scriptures say - Including this from JESUS
- which is quite clear to me - when He refers to events concerning His Return…
"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39
and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
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MagdalenaRita
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So I believe that Scripture also, I am just not sure what you are saying it means. The flood did come and took them all away but it does not say it took them all to heaven.
Are you saying something else I am missing.
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Ammi
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Maybe some knew, and were warned. As in those living close to Noah. But there were others who were much more ignorant of the warning?
We cant be sure from these few passages.
What seems to be consistent, is that the Gospel is the fullness of the mercy of God, and when people in our days, or before Jesus, are revealed this about God, they have an opportunity to turn in heart.
We cant be sure from these few passages.
What seems to be consistent, is that the Gospel is the fullness of the mercy of God, and when people in our days, or before Jesus, are revealed this about God, they have an opportunity to turn in heart.
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EndTimes
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I’m not saying they went to Heaven.
We know the spirits of those Sinning (all but 8 in and of the world ) went to ‘Abraham’s Bosom’
When our Lord went there He Preached the Gospel to them
so that they might be with God in Heaven…
1 Peter 4 - They will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
For this is the reason the Gospel was Preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
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MagdalenaRita
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So, “them” in the passage is the 8 who went to Abraham’s bosom?
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EndTimes
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This from the Genesis Account fills in more of the Picture.
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
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EndTimes
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No. Them is everyone but the saved 8… Them is the rest of the whole world.
He Jesus - was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water
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