Can someone who rejects the Gospel be saved?

[Pai_Nosso]

A person who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and his Church through no fault of his own (or, by extension, through his merely venial fault) can be saved- if he otherwise does what is required for salvation, according to the level of opportunity, enlightenment, and grace God gives him (CCC 847, 1260).

Hi. I think the misunderstanding of it lays here in the term “ignorant of the gospel”. The ignorant are not people who have heard the gospel and don’t believe it or reject it. The ignorant is the person living in rural China who grew up in their religion and never came across the gospel.

The definition of ignorant is “lacking knowledge or awareness”. So if u are aware of the bible you are not ignorant of it. If you have knowledge of the bible you are not ignorant.

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned…"

The gospel is clear about this.

 

[luvzkittenz]

Well there is probably no need to preach the gospel if you don’t “need” to accept it (upon learning it) in order to be saved. The faith is rendered meaningless.

 

[esieffe]

Do you meant unto the very end? Of course none of us here can be sure because we won’t be able to know what will happen in this persons heart in the final moments. We cant know what prayers have been said for this person, by people close to him or her and by others around the world, praying for people at the very edge of the abyss. Since time will stop for this person after death, we all have time to pray for them.

 

[Ammi]

Do you meant unto the very end? Of course none of us here can be sure because we won’t be able to know what will happen in this persons heart in the final moments. We cant know what prayers have been said for this person, by people close to him or her and by others around the world, praying for people at the very edge of the abyss. Since time will stop for this person after death, we all have time to pray for them.

Yes of course.

Though we cannot, nor should we pray for grave sin. It would be a grave sin to know the Gospel and yet disbelieve.

We can pray for God to extend grace for them to properly know the Gospel! We can ask God to give them grace to turn from temptations and doubts.

But our prayers cannot forgive grave sins. That is out of the power of intercessory prayer.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I’m not so sure that, according to Catholic teaching, prayers for a grave sinner by means of prayers to G-d to mitigate, if not forgive, their grave sins are completely out of our hands. Are you so certain the Church believes this?

 

[Salibi]

But our prayers cannot forgive grave sins. That is out of the power of intercessory prayer.

Not really. The Our Father says “our sins” for a reason. The Hail Mary uses the plural “sinners”. When we pray, we pray for everyone, not just ourselves. Our prayers are perfectly capable of getting others’ sins forgiven.

The LORD in His wisdom has us praying for others as well as ourselves even when we fail to notice the fact. This is because prayer is very important for the salvation of individuals. Recall Our Lady’s message at Fatima: “Many people go to Hell because there is no one to pray and sacrifice for them”.

 

[Ammi]

If Scripture is plain about something, and the Church has not explained it in another way, then we are to accept the plain message.

1 John 5
I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

 

[Ammi]

I’m talking about mortal sins. Not venial.

 

[Salibi]

Mortal sins can be forgiven through prayer same as venial sins. What makes you think otherwise?

Normally the ordinary vehicle for God’s forgiveness is the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but God is not bound by the Sacraments He instituted and can indeed forgive mortal sins if one prayed for forgiveness.

 

[Ammi]

Mortal sins can be forgiven through prayer same as venial sins. What makes you think otherwise?

No, that is quite wrong. John wrote in his 1st epistle otherwise.

So unless you can provide a formal Church Teaching that explains this Scripture other than it’s very clear and plain meaning, then I have no reason to not take this Scripture at face value.

I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

 

[Gorgias]

You still are not providing a Church definition of “knowledge” in this context.

Does the Church define individual words?

I provided the passage of Jesus explaining His parable

Sure. But parables don’t provide doctrinal teaching, and neither does the doctrinal teaching of the Church contradict Scriptural text. So, if the Church declares it, then we accept it.

I think the misunderstanding of it lays here in the term “ignorant of the gospel”. The ignorant are not people who have heard the gospel and don’t believe it or reject it. The ignorant is the person living in rural China who grew up in their religion and never came across the gospel.

No, that’s not true. If it were, then the standard would be “hearing”, and that’s not what the Church teaches.

So if u are aware of the bible you are not ignorant of it.

That’s not the teaching of the Church. “Awareness” =/= “knowledge”.

If Scripture is plain about something, and the Church has not explained it in another way, then we are to accept the plain message.

On the other hand, I’ve shown you the teaching of the Church on this matter, so you can’t claim that “the Church has not explained it”. Therefore, your personal interpretation of Scripture must defer to the teaching of the Church.

 

[Ammi]

You are NOT the authority on defining what constitutes “to know” the Gospel message.

You already claimed that it means “accepting as truth”. This is contrary to Scripture. Scripture and the NAB-RE clearly express that isnt limited to “accepting”.

 

[Salibi]

that is quite wrong. John wrote in his 1st epistle otherwise.

So unless you can provide a formal Church Teaching that explains this Scripture other than it’s very clear and plain meaning, then I have no reason to not take this Scripture at face valu

This is Catechetical teaching.

I appreciate your devotion to and ability to quote Scripture, but I urge you to talk to a priest about your concerns and have him answer your questions. As you may know, there are many dangers involved in interpreting Scripture on our own.

Peace, friend.

 

[Ammi]

How about you ask your priest?

Consider prayers for other’s sins for those in purgatory. Purgatory is for those who have not been forgiven venial sins, or their attachment to impure things. Mortal sins cannot be forgiven through intercessory prayer. That is Catholic belief.

 

[Gorgias]

You are NOT the authority on defining what constitutes “to know” the Gospel message.

Nor are you the authority on Scriptural interpretation, friend.

Yet, I’m showing you Church teaching that contradicts your personal Scriptural interpretation. To which should we grant greater authority?

 

[Ammi]

This is the last time I will say this to you.

Your understanding of “knowledge of the Gospel” is limited to “accepting as truth”. In post 56, i demonstrated how that theory is contradicted in Scripture and the NAB-RE footnote.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Mortal sins can be forgiven through prayer same as venial sins. What makes you think otherwise?

Only with the intent of going to the Sacrament of Penance as soon as one can, and if one can.

 

[PetraG]

It’s not someone who ‘rejects what they have learned of the Gospel message’, but is prevented from accepting it through something that is no fault of their own and that could mean poor evangelisation or the bad example of other Christians among many other things.

It can be anything that God judges removed culpability for incorrect belief. If the effort one of us makes to do what is right satisfies God, that is sufficient. The justice of God is real, and does not rest on the hair-splitting that the artificial justice of frail humanity can fall into. We cannot know everything we need to know to judge justly; God always does.

 

[PetraG]

Yes of course.

Though we cannot, nor should we pray for grave sin. It would be a grave sin to know the Gospel and yet disbelieve.

We can pray for God to extend grace for them to properly know the Gospel! We can ask God to give them grace to turn from temptations and doubts.

But our prayers cannot forgive grave sins. That is out of the power of intercessory prayer.

As is pointed out by the Catechism with regards to the grave sin of suicide, we should never despair of the saving power of God to save any soul, no matter how serious their offenses might seem and how unlikely their repentance might seem when considered without the light of hope:
“We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.” (CCC 2283)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

As is pointed out by the Catechism with regards to the grave sin of suicide, we should never despair of the saving power of God to save any soul, no matter how serious their offenses might seem and how unlikely their repentance might seem when considered without the light of hope:
“ We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives .” (CCC 2283)

This is true but our prayer is that prior to death God granted them final repentance somehow. From what I understand in this instance one would have that desire to be forgiven of their mortal sin but not have the opportunity to go to confession.