Can suicide ever be acceptable under certain extreme cicrumstances?

[thistle]

Leaving aside discussions about culpability, suicide is the most selfish act that can be made.
It is a rejection of God and a rejection of family.

 

[Mtdobbs]

The debate wasn’t about suicide per se, it was a topic by the OP in the apologetics section about when a person hastens their death when death is imminent, examples were given.

If somebody is contemplating suicide, like you said, please seek help. There are so many people that are willing to help.

I don’t think it’s wrong to say that suicide is intrinsically disordered, meaning it isn’t ordered towards our good. It’s a lie to our self that tells us that no life is better than life with pain. As a person who has attempted suicide and has been hospitalized numerous times in psychiatric facilities one of the only things that kept me alive was not wanting my last act to be an act that was agaisnt God, even if my guilt would have been greatly reduced or dimnished because of my grave fear and emotional/mental disturbances and psychological trauma I experienced. But it’s true, no matter how much somebody preached at me about the sinfulness of suicide, it did nothing helpful for me. Next to nobody commits suicide out of blatant sinfulness, but out of terrible brokenness, hardship, fear, suffering etc. It’s a terrible tragedy. A tragedy that was only remedied by people loving me.

I think if we call it intrinsically evil, and leave it at that, we do a great disservice to those who are struggling with suicide. It’s a loaded theological term and I dislike it because , even though it’s true that the act is an intrinsically evil act, the person is not evil or sinful, the act is. And this act is sometimes outside of what many are capable of choosing freely.

 

[tifischer]

God is the only judge. St Theresa of the Child Jesus chose not to seek medical attention and died and she is in Heaven so I guess that God has exceptions.

 

[veritatisstella]

The direct killing of oneself is never allowable but under certain circumstances one may kill oneself indirectly. As to martyrs who killed themselves one opinion is they must have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Aquinas in response to the objection that the case of Samson means it’s okay to commit suicide:

As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 21), “not even Samson is to be excused that he crushed himself together with his enemies under the ruins of the house, except the Holy Ghost, Who had wrought many wonders through him, had secretly commanded him to do this.” He assigns the same reason in the case of certain holy women, who at the time of persecution took their own lives, and who are commemorated by the Church. _ST III q.64 a.5

And the opinion of St. Alphonsus Liguori:

Is it permissible to kill oneself in order to avoid a worse death? I answer that it is never permissible to kill oneself directly, and if some people who did this are venerated [as saints], we must say they did it out of a divine impulse… But one may kill oneself indirectly, such as if someone jumps out of a window in order to flee a fire, especially if there is some hope of avoiding death. _Moral Theology, bk.3, n.367

 

[ElizabethAnn]

Hello Mtdobbs,
I am sincerely sorry about all the pain and suffering you went through. It makes me sad. Thank God you had loving people around you to support you and love you oh so much. How is life for you now? Are you able to help others?
I’d like to add a few thoughts. People who commit suicide are in so much pain they are not thinking outside of that pain. Remember that our King is full of love and mercy. At the moment of death we have no idea what is happening between Him and their soul.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. God bless you and keep you in His loving arms.

 

[Pup7]

That’s not what euthanasia is. Euthanasia is not suicide to relieve suffering. They’re two different things.

Suicide is “I choose to end my own life”.

Euthanasia is like putting a dog to sleep. Someone else administers the medications to the patient to end prolonged suffering.

Assisted suicide is someone writes you the prescription for the lethal medications and you decide when you want to take them without that person needing to be in attendance.

And I am very sorry that you have been through all of that, and am very glad you are here with us now.

 

[Mark121359]

St Theresa of the Child Jesus chose not to seek medical attention and died

Now where did you ever hear that? She was treated with the usual remedies of her day, blistering, cupping, cauterizing, some of which could be very painful. But the quality of her treatment is another story. And has since come under a lot of scrutiny. It was Dr. Alexandre de Corniere, who was chief surgeon at the Lisieux hospital, and also the Carmel’s official physician, who treated Therese. Although her health had been deteriorating since Spring of 1894, it wasn’t until April 1896 that Therese suffered her first hemoptysis, (coughing blood) a pretty good indicator that she had contracted tuberculosis.

Dr. de Corniere, who was indifferent to professional diagnostic procedures used at that time, which has also been called into question, flat out refused to accept that Therese had tuberculosis. He remained unshakable in his opinion for the next two years. Even as late as July 1897, three months before Therese’s death, he was still convinced that she didn’t have TB. He claimed; “It is not tuberculosis, but rather an “accident” which has caused serious lung congestion.” Unfortunately, because of this misdiagnosis, many sisters in the Carmel were under the impression that Therese would eventually recover.

It was Dr. Francis La Neele, Therese’s cousin through marriage, who was the first one to speak about “tuberculosis.” It was Therese’s sister Pauline(Sr. Agnes of Jesus), who petitioned Mother Marie Gonzaque for Dr. La Neele to be allowed to examine Therese, but was refused because Dr. de Corniere was a personal friend of hers. He was finally granted permission to examine Therese very late into her illness, in August 1897, a little over a month before she died. But to state that Therese refused treatment, is simply not true. Most of what I’ve posted here can be found in the Lisieux Carmel Archives.

 

[tifischer]

@Mark121359 According to the movie it was not until she was severely sick that someone else called the Dr and by that time it was too late…she had known she was sick for a long time and not told anyone how bad it was. She choose not to seek medical attention…not refused it.

 

[Pup7]

That’s what Euthanasia is, which isn’t morally permissible though.

That’s not euthanasia is, though. Euthanasia isn’t suicide.

Euthanasia is “I give you a lethal dose of drugs and I administer them by injecting them into your IV”.

Suicide is “I kill myself with no help from anyone else and I administer the lethal dose”.

Assisted suicide is “I write the scrip for the meds and you administer them to yourself when you feel ready”.

They’re three different things.

 

[Mtdobbs]

I work/live with 2 schizophrenic women 24/7. They live with me in my house. My struggles have been the only thing that has made it possible to help them even in the slightest, besides Christ!

 

[Mark121359]

@mark121359 According to the movie it was not until she was severely sick that someone else called the Dr and by that time it was too late…she had known she was sick for a long time and not told anyone how bad it was. She choose not to seek medical attention…not refused it.

With all due respect but, a movie??? I don’t put much stock in any movie. Even “The Song of Bernadette,” one of my favorites by the way, embellished that story, and played loose with some facts. Therese kept secret the first hemoptysis from her sisters, but she told Mother Marie Gonzaque about it. But Dr. de Corniere oddly dismissed this alarming symptom. And he was also well aware of the first symptoms in 1894. The persistent sore throat, chest pains, nagging cough etc., but again these weren’t taken seriously. It wasn’t until the final months of her life that the doctor finally realized that this sickness would be fatal. So to say that she wasn’t being treated until late in the game is simply not accurate. Do some research on this. I don’t want to derail this thread any further.

 

[PetraG]

We cannot morally kill ourselves, but we may morally commit good acts which have the unintended side effect of killing us. For instance, if someone threw a grenade into a room, one of us could throw ourselves on it without being culpable for killing ourselves because the intention was to save life rather than to kill ourselves. We would be protecting life in spite of the unintended side effect of killing ourselves.

We are also allowed to accept natural death without resorting to heroic measures to extend our lives. It is not suicide to refuse care that would extend life or avert natural death.

I hear what you are saying. I was worried about hitting the self esteem of a suicidal person and telling them they are considering doing something “evil” and thus making them feel worse.

As far as speaking to a suicidal person, it is OK to remind them that they do not have the right to take their own lives. It could be done in the following way, “If I were as miserable as you feel, it would be murder for you to kill me to save me from that misery. It is also wrong for you to take your own life into your own hands. Even when the intention is good, we may not play God that way, not even with our own life.”

I don’t know how it could lower the self-esteem of a suicidal person to tell them that every life is valuable, no one has the right to decide a human life is not worth living, and even the person themselves doesn’t get to decide that. You can also remind them that even though they may feel they are not wrong, other people have committed suicide or attempted suicide and have been wrong and none of them realized it at the time.

I would also remind them that there is no way to commit suicide that cannot fail to kill the person but does leave them physically more miserable. Attempted suicides can cause disability or brain damage instead of death. When an otherwise healthy person tries to commit suicide, it isn’t uncommon that they do. The body has a will to live, even if the psyche temporarily loses it.

Having said that, a suicidal person is not thinking rationally. It is impossible to be certain how they will take anything. When their care can be left to professionals, I would do that.

 

[DeniseNY]

All I can think of when I think of those poor souls who had to make that choice was that they felt God’s presence with them.

May the memory of each of them be eternal.

 

[Vonsalza]

In response to the question of the thread; “of course”. Someone driven to that most extreme of solutions is certainly in a state of mind that makes them less than perfectly culpable.

God alone judges and God is love.

 

[Mtdobbs]

This is debatable. I would argue that blaspheming until death is arguably more selfish, in my opinion.

 

[hmikell7]

I’d make the argument that suicide (depending on the circumstances) in itself can be considered a form of blasphemy soooo

 

[Mtdobbs]

Actual blasphemy, depending on the circumstances, is usually blasphemy(scripture is pretty clear). Suicide in most cases, I would argue, is not blasphemy.

The majority of suicides are mental health related. Not true blasphemy.

 

[Edmundus1581]

There was a great fire(maybe the Chicago fire) and some families, after realizing they were surrounded by flames and not wanting their children to burn to death, shot their children and themselves instead of being burnt alive. Terrible moral dilemmas. I’m not saying it wasn’t sinful, but parents were being motivated by not wanting their children to burn to death(which is said to be one of the most painful ways to die)

The Peshtigo Fire :

“The heat of the fire turned sand to glass. Whole families were found bound together in desperate heaps, charred beyond recognition. It is said that 200 men died at a single tavern. Some townsfolk, knowing the certain anguish of death by flames, killed themselves and their children before the fire could.”

I’d hate to be in this position.

I am reminded of a story I read by a Jewish survivor of the Treblinka death camp, in WWII. There was an uprising of the prisoners and many fled towards the woods outside the camp perimiter. This survivor found that a fellow prisoner had been shot from behind and was crippled. The other man asked him to shoot him before the Nazi’s reached him. He did it. Was that murder and suicide? I think not.

One can’t be sure that one will never be placed in such a predicament.

Ditto, as a divorced man I feel desperately for the many men who commit suicide in my position. One’s whole life can be turned upside down in a short time, and face impossible debts and a future of paying alimony and child support for kids who have been removed from you. I survived, but I understand the many who can’t face it all.

 

[po18guy]

Short answer: No.
Mental illness reduces culpability.
That’s all.

Which, in a warped sense, reminds me of comedian Steven Wright. His girlfriend asked him one night:

“If you could know the exact day and time that you were going to die, would you want to know?”
He answered, “No, I wouldn’t.”
“OK, never mind” she said.

 

[Mtdobbs]

Perhaps Gods plan was for the man who was shot and didn’t want the Nazis to catch him, was suppose to convert all of them? The people with him made a decision based on their consciences. It might free them from culpability, but it doesn’t necessarily make it not sinful. The conscience can free a person of the punishment due to a sin but I don’t think it can remove the sin. I could be wrong though.