Can the Holy Spirit dwell in a person that is in a state of mortal sin?

[shocktrooper]

Only 30 minutes ? Where did you get this idea ?

I am talking about the digestive process and the time it takes for the Eucharist to be taken in by the digestive process. The Church teaches that the BBS&D is present as long as the accidents of bread and wine are present. Most say it is only 15 minutes till this point. I was giving it 30 minutes.

Pax Christi.

 

[shocktrooper]

Perhaps ‘neglect’, or ‘ignore’ , or temporarily ‘lost’ ? Once one is Baptized … they are a new creation IN CHRIST.

Peter sinned, David sinned … yet they promptly repented ! The longer we wait to repent … the harder it gets to do so. The hot Fire of the H.S. slowly dies down to only a small flicker, then only a coal covered in ashes and no longer visible. Yet, a gust of wind, a trial, a hardship … will bring about contrite confession/repentance, and the coal of fire will ignite into a burning flame again.

I like this point and the one above. I will go to rest pondering these two.

Pax Christi.

 

[bluelake]

Objectively, can the Holy Spirit dwell in a person that is in a state of mortal sin?

Personally, I don’t see how it is possible but I am looking to get other opinions or Church teaching if possible? Primarily Church teachings! The main reason I hold this thought is because of the state our Blessed Mother Mary was in all her life as the new Arc of the Covenant. Likewise, our bodies are a tabernacle of the Lord. Since we must be purified and perfected to be in the presence of the Father, I would think that we would have to be in a state of grace for the Holy Spirit to reside in us. Christ also said that if we abide in Him, then He will abide in us. We believe in circumincession, so how can a person in mortal sin have God dwell in them. I don’t deny that grace still works in our lives, if in this state.

Can some of my brothers or sisters help me out with this one?

Pax Christi

Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins.

bluelake

 

[brb3]

I am talking about the digestive process and the time it takes for the Eucharist to be taken in by the digestive process. The Church teaches that the BBS&D is present as long as the accidents of bread and wine are present. Most say it is only 15 minutes till this point. I was giving it 30 minutes.

Yes, but once it enters the bloodstream via gastric/intestinal vessels … it is carried to every living cell in the body. And, becomes nutrition for every organ system. Supplying BOTH the energy and the regenerative building blocks for all cell components.

 

[FCEGM]

What the CCC says is opposite what people have been saying here. The person loses sanctifying grace (meaning sharing in the life of the Trinity). I think that is pretty straightforward. That means the Holy Spirit does not dwell in the soul of a person living in mortal sin. The Holy Spirit can work to have the person confess such sin, but it remains in the person’s free will to confess the evil he/she has done and to receive forgiveness. After that, the Holy Spirit will return to share the life of the Trinity in the person’s soul.

The CCC, of course, is correct; what you are misunderstanding however is the distinction between the Holy Spirit’s presence which sanctifies the soul and His presence sustaining the soul in existence. That is why it is true to say that He is present in power, knowledge and essence in a soul in mortal sin, but that this same Presence is not also sanctifying the soul making it into an ever-truer image of the Son.

 

[shocktrooper]

The CCC, of course, is correct; what you are misunderstanding however is the distinction between the Holy Spirit’s presence which sanctifies the soul and His presence sustaining the soul in existence. That is why it is true to say that He is present in power, knowledge and essence in a soul in mortal sin, but that this same Presence is not also sanctifying the soul making it into an ever-truer image of the Son.

Ok, if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit within every soul, keeping it in existence, then every soul regardless of baptism has Him. There seems to be a very distinct difference between the existence of God in each and every aspect of creation, and the Holy Spirit indwelling in a human soul that is in a state of grace. I think this distinction is being overlooked. A non human would have this same “presence” or it would no longer exist either.

I don’t deny that there is some presence of God that keeps us in existence. It just seems to me, still, that this is a mysterious presence that is separate from the Holy Spirit. If it wasn’t, then the Holy Spirit would not come and dwell in us at baptism, because He would have already been in us.

Don’t we have a prayer that starts, “Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful…” This seems to suggest that the recipients are “faithful”, and not committing infidelity.

Can someone explain to me why this situation is different from us receiving the Eucharist in a state of moral sin? I think they are much related since the Eucharist is the second Person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the third Person, and we are told not to commit sacrilege by taking the Lord into our bodies while in a state of mortal sin. Why would this be of any concern if we already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us in the same state. Don’t we believe that where one of the Trinity is, there, too, are the other Persons (CIRCUMINSESSION)?

Also, can a person that is demon possessed also be possessed by the Holy Spirit at the same time?

Pax Christi.

 

[FCEGM]

Ok, if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit within every soul, keeping it in existence, then every soul regardless of baptism has Him. There seems to be a very distinct difference between the existence of God in each and every aspect of creation, and the Holy Spirit indwelling in a human soul that is in a state of grace. I think this distinction is being overlooked.

I think I’ve been making that distinction since my first post on the thread.

I don’t deny that there is some presence of God that keeps us in existence. It just seems to me, still, that this is a mysterious presence that is separate from the Holy Spirit. If it wasn’t, then the Holy Spirit would not come and dwell in us at baptism, because He would have already been in us.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t move; there is no “place” where He is or isn’t since all that is is present to Him (to all the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity in their intercommunion: circumincession). When we invoke the Holy Spirit to “come” we are asking Him to be at work in our souls. There is no other “mysterious presence” involved.

Can someone explain to me why this situation is different from us receiving the Eucharist in a state of moral sin? I think they are much related since the Eucharist is the second Person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the third Person, and we are told not to commit sacrilege by taking the Lord into our bodies while in a state of mortal sin. Why would this be of any concern if we already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us in the same state. Don’t we believe that where one of the Trinity is, there, too, are the other Persons (CIRCUMINSESSION)?

Again, this is the difference between presence by power and presence by grace which sanctifies - that is why it is a sin to receive that which is Holy when one is not in grace. The grace of Communion will not be effective because there is nothing of the soul corresponding to that Holiness; iow, receiving Christ and His saving action is of no use to the soul not in friendship with the Most Holy Trinity since there is a reciprocity of Like to like - the soul in grace being like unto its Savior and receiving strength and fidelity, etc., etc., etc., to continue to grow in that Likeness.

Also, can a person that is demon possessed also be possessed by the Holy Spirit at the same time?

Yes. This earlier post addresses your question.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7248845&postcount=9

 

[stmichael19]

Pope Leo XIII answers this question in his encyclical entitled Divinum Illud Munus. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in someone who is in mortal sin. He writes:

“Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven, although it is most certainly produced by the presence of the whole Blessed Trinity-“We will come to Him and make our abode with Him,” (John xiv. 23.)-nevertheless is attributed in a peculiar manner to the Holy Ghost. For, whilst traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man, charity, which, as it were, is the special mark of the Holy Ghost, is shared in only by the just.”

He makes it clear again when he writes:
“The fullness of divine gifts is in many ways a consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the souls of the just.”

 

[brb3]

Pope Leo XIII answers this question in his encyclical entitled Divinum Illud Munus. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in someone who is in mortal sin. He writes:

“Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven, although it is most certainly produced by the presence of the whole Blessed Trinity-“We will come to Him and make our abode with Him,” (John xiv. 23.)-nevertheless is attributed in a peculiar manner to the Holy Ghost. For, whilst traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man, charity, which, as it were, is the special mark of the Holy Ghost, is shared in only by the just.”

He makes it clear again when he writes:
“The fullness of divine gifts is in many ways a consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the souls of the just.”

Well we know God has written his Law in the hearts of ALL Men !! Scripture says man is w/o excuse !

Yet, we know Christ also ‘breathed’ the H.S. into the apostles … and told them/us, … “I will never leave or forsake you” Heb. 13:5.

So the spirit can lie within us unnoticed / dormant … at times. Christ can stir it to life with his WORD / his PRESENCE, etc. Baptism brings the spirit to life, Confirmation brings it to life. Spiritual Rebirth somehow confers an awakening of the H.S. within. Prayer, fasting, confession, meditations, scripture, can revive the spirit in a wayward Christian. Its a mystery … but one that has probably been best explained already by the ECF’s and Church Saints.

FCEGM will probably be able to point us to the best sources for the full answer.

 

[FCEGM]

Pope Leo XIII answers this question in his encyclical entitled Divinum Illud Munus. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in someone who is in mortal sin. He writes:

“Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven, although it is most certainly produced by the presence of the whole Blessed Trinity-“We will come to Him and make our abode with Him,” (John xiv. 23.)-nevertheless is attributed in a peculiar manner to the Holy Ghost. For, whilst traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man, charity, which, as it were, is the special mark of the Holy Ghost, is shared in only by the just.”

He makes it clear again when he writes:
“The fullness of divine gifts is in many ways a consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the souls of the just.”

What Pope Leo writes is true, but again you are missing the distinction (which the Holy Father himself references in the statement you provide) between God’s Presence in the soul in grace and His presence sustaining that soul in existence no matter what the state of the soul. The soul in mortal sin is bereft of divine charity, but not of its existence which can only exist by virtue of the creative power of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[FCEGM]

Well we know God has written his Law in the hearts of ALL Men !! Scripture says man is w/o excuse !

Yet, we know Christ also ‘breathed’ the H.S. into the apostles … and told them/us, … “I will never leave or forsake you” Heb. 13:5.

So the spirit can lie within us unnoticed / dormant … at times. Christ can stir it to life with his WORD / his PRESENCE, etc. Baptism brings the spirit to life, Confirmation brings it to life. Spiritual Rebirth somehow confers an awakening of the H.S. within. Prayer, fasting, confession, meditations, scripture, can revive the spirit in a wayward Christian. Its a mystery … but one that has probably been best explained already by the ECF’s and Church Saints.

FCEGM will probably be able to point us to the best sources for the full answer.

Well, I don’t know about that, brb - but since I already made mention of St. Teresa of Jesus, here is St. John of the Cross:

It brings special happiness to a person to understand that God is never absent, not even from a soul in mortal sin (and how much less from one in the state of grace). The Spiritual Canticle, stanza 1, #8.

Also, St. Thomas in his Summa theologica makes some essential points which help us better understand this:

The goodness of anything is twofold; one, which is of the essence of it–thus, for instance, to be rational pertains to the essence of man. As regards this good, God cannot make a thing better than it is itself; although He can make another thing better than it; even as He cannot make the number four greater than it is; because if it were greater it would no longer be four, but another number. For the addition of a substantial difference in definitions is after the manner of the addition of unity of numbers (Metaph. viii, 10). Another kind of goodness is that which is over and above the essence; thus, the good of a man is to be virtuous or wise. As regards this kind of goodness, God can make better the things He has made. Absolutely speaking, however, God can make something else better than each thing made by Him. (Summa theologica, first part, question 25).

Note the distinction he makes between the goodness of the essence of a thing (because created by God) and how that thing (man) can be made better.

The word “gift” imports an aptitude for being given. And what is given has an aptitude or relation both to the giver and to that to which it is given. For it would not be given by anyone, unless it was his to give; and it is given to someone to be his. Now a divine person is said to belong to another, either by origin, as the Son belongs to the Father; or as possessed by another. But we are said to possess what we can freely use or enjoy as we please: and in this way a divine person cannot be possessed, except by a rational creature united to God. Other creatures can be moved by a divine person, not, however, in such a way as to be able to enjoy the divine person, and to use the effect thereof. The rational creature does sometimes attain thereto; as when it is made partaker of the divine Word and of the Love proceeding, so as freely to know God truly and to love God rightly. (Summa theologica, first part, question 38).

Again, the distinction between the “gift” (the Holy Spirit) “possessed” by rational creatures (man) and the effect of the “gift” which allows us to “partake” of the divine Word and come to know and love God.

And this section from the Summa regarding the goodness of man’s nature and the effect of sin on that goodness:

newadvent.org/summa/2085.htm

 

[stmichael19]

If you don’t believe Pope Leo XIII, how about John Paul II?

He makes is clear that only the just have the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

He writes:

“We can say that, on the basis of a Christian life characterized by interiority, prayer and union with God, there is a truth which like all theology and pneumatological catechesis derives from the texts of Sacred Scripture and especially from the words of Christ and the apostles: that of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a divine guest in the souls of the just.”

He goes on and says: “Of course, the Holy Spirit is present and at work in the whole Church, as we have seen in preceding catecheses. But the concrete fulfillment of his presence and action comes about in relationship with the human person, with the soul of the just person in whom he establishes his dwelling and pours out the gift which Christ obtained through the redemption.”

It is absolutely true that God sustains all of creation, even those who do not believe He exists. But He does not dwell in every soul…just the soul of the just…None of my professors in seminary would agree with anyone who says that the Holy Spirit dwells in a soul who is in mortal sin.

 

[FCEGM]

If you don’t believe Pope Leo XIII, how about John Paul II?

He makes is clear that only the just have the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

He writes:

“We can say that, on the basis of a Christian life characterized by interiority, prayer and union with God, there is a truth which like all theology and pneumatological catechesis derives from the texts of Sacred Scripture and especially from the words of Christ and the apostles: that of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a divine guest in the souls of the just.”

He goes on and says: “Of course, the Holy Spirit is present and at work in the whole Church, as we have seen in preceding catecheses. But the concrete fulfillment of his presence and action comes about in relationship with the human person, with the soul of the just person in whom he establishes his dwelling and pours out the gift which Christ obtained through the redemption.”

I don’t disbelieve either of of these Holy Fathers, merely understanding them properly. Pope Leo alludes to the Holy Spirit’s presence through the “traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man”. Pope John Paul is writing about the sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit, not denying His presence by power. These are two different ways in which He is present: sustaining in existence and sanctifying the soul brought by grace from servanthood as a creature to sonship as a new creation in Christ.

It is absolutely true that God sustains all of creation, even those who do not believe He exists. But He does not dwell in every soul…just the soul of the just…None of my professors in seminary would agree with anyone who says that the Holy Spirit dwells in a soul who is in mortal sin.

God sustains all of creation by His Presence in all creation while not being a part of that creation. Your professors would surely know of His Omnipresence since it is de fide that He is everywhere present in created space.

*Where shall I go to escape your spirit?
Where shall I flee from your presence?
If I scale the heavens you are there,
if I lie flat in Sheol, there you are. Psalm 139:7-8

Am I a God when near, Yahweh demands
and not a God when far away?
Can anyone hide somewhere secret without my seeing him? Yahweh demands.
Do I not fill heaven and earth? Jer. 24:3-24. *

I posted this from Ott’s Fundamentals Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma wherein he addresses the principle:

“Since the time of [Peter Lombard] theologians more closely determine the omnipresence of God as a presence according to power (per potentiam-dynamic presence), according to knowledge (per praesentiam sive scientiam-ideal presence), and according to essence (per essentiam-essential or substantial presenc). Through this essence He is present substantially in all things, including the created spiritual essences (angels, demons, human souls), as the immediate origin of their existence.”

“. . .in addition to this general, natural, presence of God, there is also a special supernatural presence or indwelling of God, by the supernatural efficacy of His grace, in the soul of the just man (John 12:23; 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:10). . .”

This last part speaking of the “supernatural efficacy of His grace” is what John Paul is addressing in your quote.

If He is present (all three Divine Persons present “where” One Is) substantially in the demons, He is thus present in souls in mortal sin.

 

[brb3]

how about John Paul II?

He makes is clear that only the just have the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

He writes:

“We can say that, on the basis of a Christian life characterized by interiority, prayer and union with God, there is a truth which like all theology and pneumatological catechesis derives from the texts of Sacred Scripture and especially from the words of Christ and the apostles: that of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a divine guest in the souls of the just.”

He goes on and says: “Of course, the Holy Spirit is present and at work in the whole Church, as we have seen in preceding catecheses. But the concrete fulfillment of his presence and action comes about in relationship with the human person, with the soul of the just person in whom he establishes his dwelling and pours out the gift which Christ obtained through the redemption.”

I don’t accept your analysis … that JP2 is saying the H.S. ONLY exists in the just. He addresses the H.S. in the just, not the unjust.

 

[brb3]

But He does not dwell in every soul…just the soul of the just…None of my professors in seminary would agree with anyone who says that the Holy Spirit dwells in a soul who is in mortal sin.

Then you & your professors are wrong !

As FCEGM has shown us … St. Teresa clearly stated otherwise. So did St. Paul … with regards to Christ’s revelation to him [Heb. 14:5].

 

[brb3]

Pope Leo XIII answers this question in his encyclical entitled Divinum Illud Munus. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in someone who is in mortal sin. He writes:

“Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven, although it is most certainly produced by the presence of the whole Blessed Trinity-“We will come to Him and make our abode with Him,” (John xiv. 23.)-nevertheless is attributed in a peculiar manner to the Holy Ghost. For, whilst traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man, charity, which, as it were, is the special mark of the Holy Ghost, is shared in only by the just.”

He makes it clear again when he writes:
“The fullness of divine gifts is in many ways a consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the souls of the just.”

Read carefully what Pope Leo 13 says !

It does not support your conclusion. You are overreaching for an absolute declaration here … which doesn’t flow from what Leo and JP2 have said.

 

[stmichael19]

This is from JPII:

According to the “canons” added to this doctrinal text, the First Vatican Council confirmed the following truths:

1. The one, true God is Creator and Lord “of visible and invisible things” (DS 3021).
2. It is contrary to faith to affirm that only matter exists (materialism) (DS 3022).
3. It is contrary to faith to assert that God is essentially identified with the world (pantheism) (DS 3023).
4. It is contrary to faith to maintain that creatures, even spiritual ones, are an emanation of the divine substance, or to affirm that the divine Being by its manifestation or evolution becomes everything (DS 3024).
5. Also contrary to faith is the idea that God is the universal or indefinite being which in becoming determinate constitutes the universe divided into genera, species and individuals (DS 3024).
6. It is likewise contrary to faith to deny that the world and all things contained in it, whether spiritual or material, in their entire substance have been created by God out of nothing (DS 3025).

Number 4 is what will answer our question here. The Divine does not emanate from creation including angels. That is why Baptism is necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to dwell in the soul. Only through the sacraments are we made like God because it is the Trinity who comes to dwell within us. Apart from those graces, we’d be ourselves…not God and He certainly would not dwell within us. At the same time, article 4 says just because God has revealed Himself doesn’t mean He becomes everything. The idea the Holy Spirit is actually in every soul regardless of baptism (or state of grace) is a heresy. You don’t need to believe me, but you do need to believe Vatican I and John Paul II.

 

[brb3]

This is from JPII:

According to the “canons” added to this doctrinal text, the First Vatican Council confirmed the following truths:

1. The one, true God is Creator and Lord “of visible and invisible things” (DS 3021).
2. It is contrary to faith to affirm that only matter exists (materialism) (DS 3022).
3. It is contrary to faith to assert that God is essentially identified with the world (pantheism) (DS 3023).
4. It is contrary to faith to maintain that creatures, even spiritual ones, are an emanation of the divine substance, or to affirm that the divine Being by its manifestation or evolution becomes everything (DS 3024).
5. Also contrary to faith is the idea that God is the universal or indefinite being which in becoming determinate constitutes the universe divided into genera, species and individuals (DS 3024).
6. It is likewise contrary to faith to deny that the world and all things contained in it, whether spiritual or material, in their entire substance have been created by God out of nothing (DS 3025).

Number 4 is what will answer our question here. The Divine does not emanate from creation including angels. That is why Baptism is necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to dwell in the soul. Only through the sacraments are we made like God because it is the Trinity who comes to dwell within us. Apart from those graces, we’d be ourselves…not God and He certainly would not dwell within us. At the same time, article 4 says just because God has revealed Himself doesn’t mean He becomes everything. The idea the Holy Spirit is actually in every soul regardless of baptism (or state of grace) is a heresy. You don’t need to believe me, but you do need to believe Vatican I and John Paul II.

All the above is dead on !! I believe Vat 1 & JP2.

But, none of what they say suggests what you [and perhaps your professors] have.

Within everyone’s soul is the supernatural essence of God. But, also the taint of original sin, and soon thereafter ‘actual’ sin damages our souls. Until we are Baptized / Confirmed with the H.S., we don’t experience the ‘rebirth’ of our tainted souls. The above sacraments qualitatively transform the soul back to its original pristine status, before the Garden Sin. Newly created again … by the NEW ADAM. Newly adopted children for the Kingdom.

Now, after this ‘rebirth’ event. Along comes mortal sin. Yet, it does not separate us ‘entirely’ from God. If prompted confessed, it does very little damage to us. But, if we don’t show contrition and repent of … the damage can become severe and longlasting. A cancer, that can be metastatic and lethal to us.

Scripture is repleat with descriptions of the H.S. We can either be FILLED with [as was Peter at Pentecost] … or we can be sitting on practically EMPTY [when continuing to live with unconfessed mortal sins].

 

[Bookcat]

God is present …everywhere…he is “omni-present” so the Holy Spirit is present everywhere.

But there are various modes of presence. That is one such mode.

The term in English used here…refers to the special presence of God in those who are in a state of grace. The Holy Spirit (and the Father and the Son thus) dwell within us …as in a temple. We are indeed the “temple of the Holy Spirit” as Paul tells us.

So if a person who is in a state of grace commits a mortal sin and enters thus a state of moral sin…then he is no longer in a state of grace…and thus until such time as he returns by the grace of God to this state (via confession …or indeed…perfect contrition…) his state is thus changed. The Holy Spirit is no longer “dwelling” in that way within him…

But his can be very much at work seeking is return to true life…

(as to Holy Communion…the Sacramental presence of Our Lord remains in us for as long as the accidents remain…which is a short time…but he remains of course in the other mode…until we reject him by mortal sin…)

 

[TempleofTheSoul]

So what I have gathered from many of the posts is that the Holy Spirit dwells within us but in varying degrees according to the level of sanctity in our souls. If we are in mortal sin we do spiritual damage to our souls and the relationship that we have with the Holy Spirit but the Holy spirit does not leave us.

For the past year or so I have studied more concerning the **Indwelling of the Holy Trinity **in the Temple of one’s body. And I have to agree with my patron saint, Saint Teresa of Avila’s analogy that the souls is like a crystal with many mansions within it and that when the soul is in a state of mortal sin it is like the soul’s radiance being covered with a black veil and not allowing the sun to shine and show its brilliance. That is how the Holy Spirit works on upon our souls and it all comes down to our relationship with the Holy Spirit through the state of one’s soul.

Just as we have different varying of degrees of sanctity in each individual soul so will there be varying degrees of sanctity/glory in heaven with each individual soul.

God bless