Can time have no beginning but still be created?

[Kmon23]

I don’t know much philosophy, but for the more well learned Catholics here in philosophy and metaphysics, is there anything that says there must be a beginning to time for God to have created the universe? Sort of whether God could create a universe that Aquina’s final cause argument doesn’t apply.

I mean, is it possible there was at one point, no creation, and then God creates the universe, but is it possible that when God created the universe that he made the universe such that it has an infinite past ? An example there was no number line, and then a person makes a number line that goes infinitely to both the past and future. So can God create a universe from where there was no beginning in time in that universe? (And on the point of no universe vs. after the creation of the universe, I am not insinuating that the universe and God is within a larger universe with time since God is outside of time, this is just beyond our comprehension, but with limitations of language I say it this way).
And in no way am I saying that the universe is ultimately infinitely existing, but that when God created the universe, he created in such a way that it had a past that stretches to infinity (so there was a point when there was no “universe” but only from God’s point of view). In such a universe, there would be no first mover from within the perspective of the universe (of course from God’s perspective He was the first mover). But in such a world, then Aquina’s first mover argument would not work.

Can God create such a world?

 

[ynotzap]

Time

I don’t know much philosophy, but for the more well learned Catholics here in philosophy and metaphysics, is there anything that says there must be a beginning to time for God to have created the universe? Sort of whether God could create a universe that Aquina’s final cause argument doesn’t apply.

I mean, is it possible there was at one point, no creation, and then God creates the universe, but is it possible that when God created the universe that he made the universe such that it has an infinite past ? An example there was no number line, and then a person makes a number line that goes infinitely to both the past and future. So can God create a universe from where there was no beginning in time in that universe? (And on the point of no universe vs. after the creation of the universe, I am not insinuating that the universe and God is within a larger universe with time since God is outside of time, this is just beyond our comprehension, but with limitations of language I say it this way).
And in no way am I saying that the universe is ultimately infinitely existing, but that when God created the universe, he created in such a way that it had a past that stretches to infinity (so there was a point when there was no “universe” but only from God’s point of view). In such a universe, there would be no first mover from within the perspective of the universe (of course from God’s perspective He was the first mover). But in such a world, then Aquina’s first mover argument would not work.

Can God create such a world?

God is never subjected to time, before or after creation. God exists eternally When God creates, that which He creates is subjected to time. Time is change, motion from Potency to Act. There is no future or past with God, everything is eternally present to Him. When we are created we are created with a capacity to become. eg. baby to adult, seed to plant, ignorant to learned etc. To become these things we are moved by God to their fulfillment. To become is called Potency ( a capacity for change) and to change is called Act. This change or motion is called time. A clock by the change exhibited in the motion of the hands is used to measure time. For created things change is the condition of it’s nature, Potency and Act. God is Pure Act, immutable, no change in Him, He is the Fullness of Being, no Potency.

 

[ynotzap]

The title of the post is a contradiction because to have no beginning means that it always existed, eternal, infinite. To be created means to be finite, have a beginning. To be created means constantly changing, to be eternal means no change. To be eternal means to have full Being, to be created means to keep becoming approaching full being.

 

[Kmon23]

The title of the post is a contradiction because to have no beginning means that it always existed, eternal, infinite. To be created means to be finite, have a beginning. To be created means constantly changing, to be eternal means no change. To be eternal means to have full Being, to be created means to keep becoming approaching full being.

But that is exactly that. Since God is outside of time, could He create a universe where in the universe, there was an infinite past. However, it was something God still created.

 

[Errham]

Aquinas writes on this subject. Time is a law of nature, that God created in order to govern and order his creation. It does not apply to him. It’s a difficult concept, but there you have it.

 

[Kmon23]

Aquinas writes on this subject. Time is a law of nature, that God created in order to govern and order his creation. It does not apply to him. It’s a difficult concept, but there you have it.

Of course I believe time doesn’t apply to him, that’s not my question

 

[WonderAndAwe]

Yes it can. Because God is without limit in what and how He can create.

 

[Vico]

I don’t know much philosophy, but for the more well learned Catholics here in philosophy and metaphysics, is there anything that says there must be a beginning to time for God to have created the universe? Sort of whether God could create a universe that Aquina’s final cause argument doesn’t apply.

I mean, is it possible there was at one point, no creation, and then God creates the universe, but is it possible that when God created the universe that he made the universe such that it has an infinite past ? An example there was no number line, and then a person makes a number line that goes infinitely to both the past and future. So can God create a universe from where there was no beginning in time in that universe? (And on the point of no universe vs. after the creation of the universe, I am not insinuating that the universe and God is within a larger universe with time since God is outside of time, this is just beyond our comprehension, but with limitations of language I say it this way).
And in no way am I saying that the universe is ultimately infinitely existing, but that when God created the universe, he created in such a way that it had a past that stretches to infinity (so there was a point when there was no “universe” but only from God’s point of view). In such a universe, there would be no first mover from within the perspective of the universe (of course from God’s perspective He was the first mover). But in such a world, then Aquina’s first mover argument would not work.

Can God create such a world?

Creation is the action or process of bringing something into existence. Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events. Therefore time applies to creation only.

 

[Rhubarb]

The think the very concept of creation involves a beginning. There’s an analytic entailment between the concept of an act of creation and the concept of a point at which the creation starts.

Something that’s puzzled me is this - I can buy a deity outside of our human space and time. I can buy that this deity might exist in a state where all things and ‘moments’ are present to it as a consequence. (Basically that there is no time for this being)

But the above point seems to entail then that there is a ‘time’ before time, at least in relation to creation in time. But how can there be a ‘before’ in a reality that time is not a part of?

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Creation is the action or process of bringing something into existence. Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events. Therefore time applies to creation only.

I was under the impression that time existed to limit the exploration of knowledge of good and evil. Individually, we have the opportunity to explore good and evil marked between our birth and death. Additionally, there are generational explorations, and era’s of exploration marked by rises and falls of civilizations. All of which is God’s creation. Further, the planets, sun, solar system, galaxy’s and universe are all measurable by us and also reflect this opportunity for God’s purpose of exploration.

Angels, are of a different realm in that they are perpetually in the presance of Almighty God and also experience no beggining or end with the Glory of God. Also in this realm is where the fallen angels exist without the presence of God for eternity. We are given eternal life with or without God based on our limited time on earth.

On Earth, we measure time based on the relationship of the Earth to the Sun & Moon. However, how would we measure time of the solar system? One might say the center of the Galaxy in relationship to the Solar system. So, next we ask how galatic time is measured? It would have to be the movement of the galaxy in relationship to ___________? Our astronomers are bringing us images of galaxies colliding with each other. Other astronomers are hypothesing that there is infinant layers of realms which we cannot see; disproving g the Big Bang Theory. The nice thing about the “Big Bang Theory” is that it gives us a base point to measure the movement of time relative to any object in the universe. However, as we gather more information, it does not appear to be so easy for us to claim an originating time point or space for the Universe.

So, yes, spiritually and physically it is very possible to have a place without the boarders of time.

 

[Vico]

I was under the impression that time existed to limit the exploration of knowledge of good and evil. Individually, we have the opportunity to explore good and evil marked between our birth and death. Additionally, there are generational explorations, and era’s of exploration marked by rises and falls of civilizations. All of which is God’s creation. Further, the planets, sun, solar system, galaxy’s and universe are all measurable by us and also reflect this opportunity for God’s purpose of exploration.

Angels, are of a different realm in that they are perpetually in the presence of Almighty God and also experience no beginning or end with the Glory of God. Also in this realm is where the fallen angels exist without the presence of God for eternity. We are given eternal life with or without God based on our limited time on earth.

On Earth, we measure time based on the relationship of the Earth to the Sun & Moon. However, how would we measure time of the solar system? One might say the center of the Galaxy in relationship to the Solar system. So, next we ask how galactic time is measured? It would have to be the movement of the galaxy in relationship to ___________? Our astronomers are bringing us images of galaxies colliding with each other. Other astronomers are hypothesizing that there is infinite layers of realms which we cannot see; disproving g the Big Bang Theory. The nice thing about the “Big Bang Theory” is that it gives us a base point to measure the movement of time relative to any object in the universe. However, as we gather more information, it does not appear to be so easy for us to claim an originating time point or space for the Universe.

So, yes, spiritually and physically it is very possible to have a place without the boarders of time.

Angels are incorporeal creatures, which have a beginning, so exist in time.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Angels are incorporeal creatures, which have a beginning, so exist in time.

Please elaborate … I have heard that they have a begging — does this mean that angels are still being created today, or have all the angels been fully created?

Incorporeal creatures are indeed challenging for this real to measure and understand which gives us a glimpse into other realms to which we do not operate daily in: a source of a place without time, yes?

 

[N0X3x]

Can God create such a world?

I’m tentatively inclined to say yes. There is speculation that our universe is spatially infinite. if God can create a spatially infinite universe, I see no reason why he couldn’t create a temporally infinite universe.

 

[N0X3x]

The think the very concept of creation involves a beginning. There’s an analytic entailment between the concept of an act of creation and the concept of a point at which the creation starts.

Something that’s puzzled me is this - I can buy a deity outside of our human space and time. I can buy that this deity might exist in a state where all things and ‘moments’ are present to it as a consequence. (Basically that there is no time for this being)

But the above point seems to entail then that there is a ‘time’ before time, at least in relation to creation in time. But how can there be a ‘before’ in a reality that time is not a part of?

What you have to understand is that God is eternal and immutable. There is no change in him, even in “the realm beyond time.” From God’s perspective, he has always been creating and sustaining the universe, always doing whatever acts he deems appropriate, and even does not change his thoughts, since all of his omniscience is constantly present to him.

God’s mind is static.

 

[ynotzap]

But that is exactly that. Since God is outside of time, could He create a universe where in the universe, there was an infinite past. However, it was something God still created.

There is no thing as an infinite past. When you say “past” that’s time gone by, and it exists in our memory, the future exists in our imagination, all we really have is the present and this is not static, but dynamic, always changing, moment by moment. God can sustain time infinitely but time is a finite condition effecting created things. Infinity belongs to God alone it is His nature. God can not create infinity but He can sustain something infinitely. God never changes, we are the ones that are changing, moving towards being, towards God who is Pure Being and Infinity In God we have our being, but we are not part of God.

 

[Rhubarb]

What you have to understand is that God is eternal and immutable. There is no change in him, even in “the realm beyond time.” From God’s perspective, he has always been creating and sustaining the universe, always doing whatever acts he deems appropriate, and even does not change his thoughts, since all of his omniscience is constantly present to him.

God’s mind is static.

I suppose that sounds coherent at first blush. Thanks.

 

[ynotzap]

Please elaborate … I have heard that they have a begging — does this mean that angels are still being created today, or have all the angels been fully created?

Incorporeal creatures are indeed challenging for this real to measure and understand which gives us a glimpse into other realms to which we do not operate daily in: a source of a place without time, yes?

Angels have a beginning, they do not have existence for their nature as God does. They are not Pure Act either so they necessarily have Potency and Act as a condition of their nature (change) but there is a difference with angels and men. Angels are more like God because they are pure created spirits. They are not hampered by corporeal limitations as humans are. Angels are infused with knowledge directly from God. Humans have to acquire knowledge by reasoning. Once an angel makes a choice by it’s will, it’s choice is immutable, unchanging, it doesn’t act out of ignorance as humans do. It is not immutable in it’s nature, if it where it wouldn’t make a choice in the first place, for choice involves change. God alone is immutable in His Nature. Once an angel commits himself to God, he will always remain committed, Satan can never change his will either, his choice is immutable, that’s in the nature of an angel.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I don’t know much philosophy, but for the more well learned Catholics here in philosophy and metaphysics, is there anything that says there must be a beginning to time for God to have created the universe? Sort of whether God could create a universe that Aquina’s final cause argument doesn’t apply.

I mean, is it possible there was at one point, no creation, and then God creates the universe, but is it possible that when God created the universe that he made the universe such that it has an infinite past ? An example there was no number line, and then a person makes a number line that goes infinitely to both the past and future. So can God create a universe from where there was no beginning in time in that universe? (And on the point of no universe vs. after the creation of the universe, I am not insinuating that the universe and God is within a larger universe with time since God is outside of time, this is just beyond our comprehension, but with limitations of language I say it this way).
And in no way am I saying that the universe is ultimately infinitely existing, but that when God created the universe, he created in such a way that it had a past that stretches to infinity (so there was a point when there was no “universe” but only from God’s point of view). In such a universe, there would be no first mover from within the perspective of the universe (of course from God’s perspective He was the first mover). But in such a world, then Aquina’s first mover argument would not work.

Can God create such a world?

There is no contradiction between an eternally existing, contingent but created universe. Thomas Aquinas’ proofs for the existence of God, in fact, make that assumption for the sake of argument. He felt that it was impossible to prove the universe had an actual beginning in time, that this we accept on faith.

But given an eternally existing, created universe we are talking about one in which God would be eternally creating. This does not mean there would be no time in it, for time is the measure of motion and as long as things were eternally in motion, there would be time, a before and after, potency and act. But I think it would be a contradiction to suppose that after eons of existing alone God should create an eternal univese with an infinite past.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The think the very concept of creation involves a beginning. There’s an analytic entailment between the concept of an act of creation and the concept of a point at which the creation starts.

Something that’s puzzled me is this - I can buy a deity outside of our human space and time. I can buy that this deity might exist in a state where all things and ‘moments’ are present to it as a consequence. (Basically that there is no time for this being)

But the above point seems to entail then that there is a ‘time’ before time, at least in relation to creation in time. But how can there be a ‘before’ in a reality that time is not a part of?

There would be an order of nature or causality but not necessarily of time. For example, Christians believe that the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son, is eternally begotten by the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Linus2nd

 

[MrSnaith]

Since the universe is composed of things, and since time is a property of change of things, then to suppose an infinitely old universe supposes an infinitely old chain of events among created things. In other words, God’s creative act would not be an initiation of events, but rather an eternal commencement of all events at once.

Note that in a universe with a beginning, God’s created act would be both, but with an infinitely old universe it can only be the second.

So, conceptually, it’s possible, but it isn’t the universe we actually inhabit. We know this because of the present moment. The present moment is occurring, therefore the universe is not infinitely old. Here’s the proof:

If the universe were actually infinitely old, there would be an actually infinite set of moments prior to the present moment. But, since an actually infinite set of moments can never be transversed in finite temporal succession, the present moment, such as it is, would actually never be arrived at. Thus, since we have arrived at the present moment, the past cannot be actually infinite.