Can we be intellectually honest and believe in the freedom of man?

[Latin]

I believe man’s free will as follows:

2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).

I pray for God’s blessings of every readers.

 

[Freddy]

Does not most of these studies only end up showing there is more brain activity before we are conscious of a decision?
If so, I fail to see how they shed any light on the issue of free will at all. Only that the brain has to work harder during the time of leading up to a decision than the decision itself.
From a pyely scientific standpoint, what am I missing?

Free will assumes conscious decisions. Sub conscious decisions - those that, by definiton, you are not aware of, cannot be described as free will.

 

[tafan2]

No, that’s not my point. Our conscience decision is when we hit the button (or flick our wrist or whatever the test does). All the tests are measuring is that brain activity peaks prior to us doing so, or prior to our decision to do so. That does not mean the decision was made in our subconscious ahead of time, only that the brain became more active preparing to make the decision as opposed to when the mind made the decision.
I have never understood the utility of these experiments with regards to the issue of free will. Certainly the fact that I am sitting here deciding what to type in response is more proof that we have free will than those experiments showing we do not. Why must we deny our basic human experience? simply because it does not fit into a deterministic world viewpoint?

 

[Aquinas11]

All the tests are measuring is that brain activity peaks prior to us doing so, or prior to our decision to do so. That does not mean the decision was made in our subconscious ahead of time, only that the brain became more active preparing to make the decision as opposed to when the mind made the decision. I have never understood the utility of these experiments with regards to the issue of free will

Exactly what I was saying earlier. The forming of the unconscious decision (“I really want a burger!!”) is separate from the voluntary action based on the unconscious decision (driving to go get a burger). I agree this research doesn’t address free will at all, since a voluntary free act is still required to act on said decisions.

 

[Freddy]

tafan2:

All the tests are measuring is that brain activity peaks prior to us doing so, or prior to our decision to do so. That does not mean the decision was made in our subconscious ahead of time, only that the brain became more active preparing to make the decision as opposed to when the mind made the decision. I have never understood the utility of these experiments with regards to the issue of free will

Exactly what I was saying earlier. The forming of the unconscious decision (“I really want a burger!!”) is separate from the voluntary action based on the unconscious decision (driving to go get a burger). I agree this research doesn’t address free will at all, since a voluntary free act is still required to act on said decisions.

The point being made is that the two are inseparable. To use an extreme example, if you have just eaten a huge meal then your subconscious is determining that you need eat no more for some time. There may well be a conscious decision based on that to avoid eating a burger. But if you are starving and someone is cooking a burger then subconscious decisions will be made, a Pavlovian response will follow and you’ll make a conscious decion based on that to chow down.

The question is: How many decisions are of that type?

 

[itsjustme]

The forming of the unconscious decision (“I really want a burger!!”) is separate from the voluntary action based on the unconscious decision (driving to go get a burger)

But how do you determine where the chain of subconscious causation ends?

If the subconscious causes you to want the burger in the first place, couldn’t the subconscious also be what causes you to “choose” to go get the burger? The choice may “seem” like a conscious one, but who’s to say that it actually is?

 

[Aquinas11]

The point being made is that the two are inseparable. if you have just eaten a huge meal then your subconscious is determining that you need eat no more for some time. There may well be a conscious decision basedon that to avoid eating a burger

Right but if I then voluntarily decide not to eat a burger, isn’t that a voluntary decision not to act? I could ignore the unconscious feeling of “eat no more” and keep eating. So I don’t see how they’re inseparable?

 

[Freddy]

Aquinas11:

The forming of the unconscious decision (“I really want a burger!!”) is separate from the voluntary action based on the unconscious decision (driving to go get a burger)

But how do you determine where the chain of subconscious causation ends?

If the subconscious causes you to want the burger in the first place, couldn’t the subconscious also be what causes you to “choose” to go get the burger? The choice may “seem” like a conscious one, but who’s to say that it actually is?

Exactly the point. We cannot make any decision without (name removed by moderator)ut from the environment. And all (name removed by moderator)uts dictate the decision in some way.

 

[Aquinas11]

If the subconscious causes you to want the burger in the first place, couldn’t the subconscious also be what causes you to “ choose ” to go get the burger?

No because then everybody who has that subconscious feeling (or every time I have it) would go get a burger.

 

[itsjustme]

Right but if I then voluntarily decide not to eat a burger, isn’t that a voluntary decision not to act? I could ignore the unconscious feeling of “eat no more” and keep eating. So I don’t see how they’re inseparable?

Because there may also be a subconscious urge to eat another burger, and the “eat another burger urge” won out over the “I’m stuffed urge”. Either way the choice may have been determined by your subconscious.

And you may only be consciously aware of the choice retroactively.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

The point being made is that the two are inseparable. if you have just eaten a huge meal then your subconscious is determining that you need eat no more for some time. There may well be a conscious decision basedon that to avoid eating a burger

Right but if I then voluntarily decide not to eat a burger, isn’t that a voluntary decision not to act? I could ignore the unconscious feeling of “eat no more” and keep eating. So I don’t see how they’re inseparable?

But there will be a reason why you do that that may also be subconscious. Maybe you are naturally greedy so your subconscious tells you to eat when food is available even if it isn’t necessary. We’ve all gone to the fridge late at night consciously deciding that we have eaten enough but dipping into the chocolate icecream anyway. And mindlessly finishing off that last half a tub while thinking about something else. Did you intend to do it?

 

[Babaganoush]

What is intellectual honesty if there is no free will? Intellectual honesty requires the freedom to be honest, but if there is no free will then everyone believes as they believes despite their will or desire. Honesty is a meaningless concept. Further, you have abrogated any claim to be reasonable or rational because that requires the ability to seek truth. Without free will you don’t seek truth, you simply do what you do and you will ride the wave where it will take you. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe and it was predetermined to be so. There is no reason in it, just physics.

 

[tafan2]

The point being made is that the two are inseparable

There is no evidence the two are inseparable. These experiments, if they show anything at all, is that the two are separate. But we would expect that, our brain is processing data in order for our mind to come to a decision.

 

[Aquinas11]

Because there may also be a subconscious urge to eat another burger, and the “ eat another burger urge ” won out over the “ I’m stuffed urge ”. Either way the choice may have been determined by your subconscious.

Ok I see where you’re coming from now. Fascinating. I disagree but that’s interesting. So if I stuff myself and have the “I’m stuffed!” subconscious feeling, if I then decide to ignore that and eat more, I’m now acting on a new “I’m not stuffed!” subconscious feeling? But where did that come from? If I’m actually stuffed, how can I suddenly have a “I’m not stuffed” subconscious feeling? So I can have contradictory subconscious feelings? That’s where you lose me.

 

[tafan2]

Exactly the point. We cannot make any decision without (name removed by moderator)ut from the environment. And all (name removed by moderator)uts dictate the decision in some way.

Of course we use (name removed by moderator)uts from our environment to make decisions. But they don’t dictate our ultimate choice.

 

[itsjustme]

No because then everybody who has that subconscious feeling (or every time I have it) would go get a burger.

It’s rarely the case that’s there’s only one subconscious urge, and which urge inevitably wins out may depends upon the strength of the competing urges in each individual. Not everyone will always make the same decision, and there’s no reason to assume that that decision must be a conscious one. You may only be consciously aware of it after the fact.

 

[Aquinas11]

But there will be a reason why you do that that may also be subconscious. Maybe you are naturally greedy so your subconscious tells you to eat when food is available even if it isn’t necessary. We’ve all gone to the fridge late at night consciously deciding that we have eaten enough but dipping into the chocolate icecream anyway

Ok that all makes sense. However, sometimes I do act on that thought to go to fridge and grab chocolate and other times I don’t. Per that theory, I would go every time, no?

 

[Aquinas11]

It’s rarely the case that’s there’s only one subconscious urge, and which urge inevitably wins out may depends upon the strength of the competing urges in each individual.

and doesn’t “the strength of the competing urges in each individual” specifically depend on prior voluntary acts (prayer, meditation, not being around things that could invite such urges, etc etc)

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

The point being made is that the two are inseparable

These experiments, if they show anything at all, is that the two are separate. But we would expect that, our brain is processing data in order for our mind to come to a decision.

They are indeed separate. But in some obvious examples the conscious decision follows the lead of the unconscious one.

Just think of yourself reading this post. Got your chin in your hand? Sitting back with pursed lips? Arms folded? Picking at a nail? Did you honestly make any conscious decisions about your posture and what you are doing at this exact moment? Your eyes are even scanning these very words with no conscious (name removed by moderator)ut at all.

Now look across the room.

Whether you just did or didn’t was the only conscious act you performed since reading this post.

 

[itsjustme]

So I can have contradictory subconscious feelings? That’s where you lose me.

Because there may be one part of your subconscious that’s saying “I love ice cream”, but there may be another part that’s saying “no, I’m lactose intolerant”. Neither group of neurons cares what the other group of neurons is saying, but at some point your subconscious will reach a threshold at which one action or the other will be triggered, and this triggering action may be a completely subconscious process.