Can we be intellectually honest and believe in the freedom of man?

[Aquinas11]

Ok yes I see that, I am ambivalent at times I guess when it comes to biological-based subconscious like whether I’m full or hungry, that’s where its hard to see competing urges.

 

[itsjustme]

Per that theory, I would go every time, no?

No, because the situation will be different every time. One time you may be feeling guilty, and at another time you may be feeling depressed. So there are a lot of factors that go into the ultimate decision, many of which you aren’t consciously aware of. Which means that at least on some level, even conscious decisions must be at least be influenced by the subconscious, if not completely determined by it.

 

[tafan2]

No one is claiming the our free will is involved in every single action. No one is claiming our unconscious does not make control some actions (our beating heart disproves this).

The point us, the experiments reference in the OP article add zero.knowledge with regards to how our mind works, whether we have free will or not. Yet our everyday human experience strongly indicates that we have free will.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But there will be a reason why you do that that may also be subconscious. Maybe you are naturally greedy so your subconscious tells you to eat when food is available even if it isn’t necessary. We’ve all gone to the fridge late at night consciously deciding that we have eaten enough but dipping into the chocolate icecream anyway

Ok that all makes sense. However, sometimes I do act on that thought to go to fridge and grab chocolate and other times I don’t. Per that theory, I would go every time, no?

What you are suggesting is that you make decisions with no external (name removed by moderator)ut. If there are external (name removed by moderator)uts then the examination of those (name removed by moderator)uts and decisions made on them may well be subconscious - as previously noted. If there are no external (name removed by moderator)uts then the decision is entirely random and cannot be described as free will.

 

[Aquinas11]

Right ok, so in some situations I’m feeling guilty and other times depressed (more likely to go eat the chocolate) and other times not guilty or depressed (so less likely to go), that makes sense. I agree our conscious decisions are influenced by subconscious. However, I would say that my subconscious feelings are influenced by my prior conscious decisions (e.g. the fact that I’m feeling guilty/depressed is influenced by me not praying, going Confession, not relaxing, etc), so based on that chain of causation my conscious decision (to go eat the chocolate) is influenced by prior conscious decision (which causes current subconscious)

 

[Babaganoush]

Even our language and our conceptions of reason presuppose free will.

 

[Freddy]

No one is claiming the our free will is involved in every single action. No one is claiming our unconscious does not make control some actions (our beating heart disproves this).
Yet our everyday human experience strongly indicates that we have free will.

No argument with that. But we naturally feel that we should be autonomous individuals so that’s an entirely natural conclusion. But just because that’s how we feel is a very poor basis for claiming it being true.

 

[Aquinas11]

What you are suggesting is that you make decisions with no external (name removed by moderator)ut

No I’m simply saying I make decisions based on combination of external and internal (name removed by moderator)ut . Only issue is nature of internal (name removed by moderator)ut (entirely subconscious = no free will or combination of subconscious/conscious = free will). I say latter.

 

[itsjustme]

However, I would say that my subconscious feelings are influenced by my prior conscious decisions (e.g. the fact that I’m feeling guilty/depressed is influenced by me not praying, going Confession, not relaxing, etc), so based on that chain of causation my conscious decision (to go eat the chocolate) is influenced by prior conscious decision (which causes current subconscious)

Now this argument I can begin to justify…except for the fact that I must then ask myself what caused that first conscious decision in the first place, if not a subconscious decision that preceded it?

So I can never get to that first conscious decision that wasn’t in fact a subconscious decision.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

What you are suggesting is that you make decisions with no external (name removed by moderator)ut

No I’m simply saying I make decisions based on combination of external and internal (name removed by moderator)ut . Only issue is nature of internal (name removed by moderator)ut (entirely subconscious = no free will or combination of subconscious/conscious = free will). I say latter.

All I can say is that over quite a few years of thinking about this and discussing it and reading about it, I’m tending to the former.

As itsjustme says above: It’s a never ending chain back through subconscious decisions made on an infinite amount of (name removed by moderator)ut over a very long time.

 

[Aquinas11]

what caused that first conscious decision in the first place, if not a subconscious decision that preceded it?

can’t the first conscious decision be a combination of subconscious and conscious? Like if tonight I am thinking about going to fridge to get the chocolate, but I decide not to since I’m not feeling depressed, and that is because yesterday I prayed Rosary which in turn was based on (1) subconscious feeling to pray it and (2) subconscious feeling to not pray it (“watch TV instead!”) and (3) conscious feeling to choose (1) over (2)?

 

[Freddy]

itsjustme:

what caused that first conscious decision in the first place, if not a subconscious decision that preceded it?

can’t the first conscious decision be a combination of subconscious and conscious? Like if tonight I am thinking about going to fridge to get the chocolate, but I decide not to since I’m not feeling depressed, and that is because yesterday I prayed Rosary which in turn was based on (1) subconscious feeling to pray it and (2) subconscious feeling to not pray it (“watch TV instead!”) and (3) conscious feeling to choose (1) over (2)?

Your choice between one and two was subconsciously decided.

 

[Aquinas11]

Ok I see, thanks for spelling that out. Appreciate the clarity. Per this theory, of internal (name removed by moderator)ut being 100% subconscious, people wouldn’t be morally responsible for crimes, would they?

 

[tafan2]

It’s not just how we feel. It is what we experience, each and every day of our lives. To claim it is not true takes some serious mental gymnastics.

 

[tafan2]

BTW, I don’t always agree with Freud, but his distaste of the term subconscious is certainly on point.

 

[Aquinas11]

But we naturally feel that we should be autonomous individuals so that’s an entirely natural conclusion. But just because that’s how we feel is a very poor basis for claiming it being true.

But what is the null hypothesis? Can you explain the circumstance by which you’d agree we would be autonomous? And how our current situation doesn’t mean that criteria?

 

[tafan2]

How do you know this? You are simply guessing.

 

[Aquinas11]

Your choice between one and two was subconsciously decided.

Sure doesn’t seem like its subconsciously decided as I’m consciously deciding it

On some nights I choose (1), on other nights I cave and do (2). You may say that just means on the nights I choose (1) that is affected by other subconscious feelings, but how do you know? IS there data of some sort that has definitively proved I am choosing (1) Rosary because I have subconscious feeling A but choosing (2) to watch TV because I have subconscious feeling Y? And has such research explicitly excluded the possibility of the conscious decision between (1) and (2)? That research would be very interesting to read…

 

[John10]

What reasons does neuroscience provide to support that we do not have free will ?

 

[tafan2]

They tell people to push a button, or some such trivial action, and measure brain activity during the process. It’s a very weak argument, and largely discredited these days. The never ending quest to show we are deterministic automans, in order to debunk religion and philosophy. As usual, it’s a failure.