Can we be intellectually honest and believe in the freedom of man?

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itsjustme said:
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goout:
That’s deep man. Real deep.
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It is actually. There’s no more reason to assume that people have the ability to reason, than there is to assume that they have free will. They certainly don’t appear to have either.
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Right! Maybe the flying spaghetti monster is controlling your thoughts and guiding you into the meaningless nothingness.
 
itsjustme said:
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goout:
Right! Maybe the flying spaghetti monster is controlling your thoughts and guiding you into the meaningless nothingness.
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And you reasoned that out all by yourself…impressive.
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Life is amazingly wonderful, is it not?
Look at you and I…thinking, writing, communicating. Doing things that not even apes can do!
Discussing points toward some…end! Trying to make…sense…out of the world. Give it meaning. Order.
Amazing stuff.
 
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itsjustme said:
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goout:
Discussing points toward some… end !
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And what end do you think that is?
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That’s not my point.
I am simply glad you accept that we are freely participating in a reasoned discussion, pursuant to some end (not sure what your desired end is, but it has to be some variant of “the truth”, or “order”, or “beauty”, or “goodness”…you pick) . In any case, you are reasoning towards a desired end.
You might not realize that you are contradicting your stated philosophy.
 
goout said:
I am simply glad you accept that we are freely participating in a reasoned discussion, pursuant to some end
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I don’t see as I have any logical end in mind at all, I’m simply reacting…as I assume you are as well. If you really stopped to reason, then this discussion would likely be over already.

(And I’m likely to be suspended…again. I keep forgetting why I have you on ignore)
 
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itsjustme said:
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goout:
I am simply glad you accept that we are freely participating in a reasoned discussion, pursuant to some end
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I don’t see as I have any logical end in mind at all, I’m simply reacting…as I assume you are as well. If you really stopped to reason, then this discussion would likely be over already.

(And I’m likely to be suspended…again. I keep forgetting why I have you on ignore)
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I’m sorry to be confronting you with difficult questions.
Have a good day.
 
So @goout, were you and I just reasoning with each other, or were we just reacting to each other, and mistaking it for reasoning?

I’m perfectly willing to have a reasoned discussion…are you?
 
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So when someone sees an article with which they disagree, such as one that seems to disprove the existence of free will. Is it reasoning that drives them to react negatively, or is it their preconceptions and biases that cause them to react negatively, and reasoning is at best a secondary contributor?
 
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The objective evidence for free will is that I am able to consciously make a decision and act on it. I am able to run through the pluses and minuses of a potential decision and then make the choice of whether or not I want to enact that decision.
itsjustme said:
Don’t be confrontational…remember what happened to Bradskii.
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Was Bradskii banned?
 
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Ok, it’s morning again. And my subconscious after i woke up just told me im hungry 😃 probably because of my internal sensations.

Question: 5+2
a. 21 b. 9 c. 7 d.10

because we are adults here, easy isn’t it? thats because we have a prior knowledge to this. Now…

Question: 7 / 7.77 * 3

a. 3.2162 b. 2.270 c. 2.107 d. 2.702

Now that changes a lot there 🙂 Will you use a calculator to get the correct answer or do it by hand or just make a wild guess or pray that you get it right. What does our subconscious is telling us?

In my previous post, I simply say things at the moment i thought of it and no special thinking done there just to see if i’m acting based on my freewill or based in my preconceive knowledge of my thinking. But you’ve read my post because you can perceive what was written. Now i’m trying to see whether solving a math can be done subconsciously or have to be done with a conscious knowledge of what is being asked. Just like when we read things, our reaction is based on how we comprehend them.

So to try another experiment, can we understand the Bible in a different language without former knowledge of that language? Then if the answer is “No”, do we conclude that we aren’t blessed like the apostles in acts because we cannot understand what is being said.

@Kullervo
Im an asian buddy 🙂
 
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ProdglArchitect said:
The objective evidence for free will is that I am able to consciously make a decision and act on it. I am able to run through the pluses and minuses of a potential decision and then make the choice of whether or not I want to enact that decision.
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That’s subjective evidence, not objective evidence. You think that your choices and reasoning are determined by your own free will…but are they?

Even when you’re weighing the evidence, your biases give greater merit to some evidence over other evidence. Such that there must come a point where the evidence is ambiguous, and what you’re actually relying on is your preconceptions and biases. Those are therefore the determining factors in which position you ultimately take.
 
As I said, you must conclude that your opinion isn’t considered; it isn’t reasoned out. It is merely justified because you didn’t have the freedom to reason it out or consider it. All you have is the awareness to justify it, or assert it. It was determined despite yourself.
 
Man is a very sophisticated physical machine. And a spiritual being, made in God’s image. In any case he’s not an automaton; he’s “sophisticated enough” to be held morally accountable by both his peers and his God.
 
blueonion said:
Question: 7 / 7.77 * 3

a. 3.2162 b. 2.270 c. 2.107 d. 2.702

Now that changes a lot there 🙂 Will you use a calculator to get the correct answer or do it by hand or just make a wild guess or pray that you get it right.
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The math is irrelevant, because even a calculator can do the math. So the reasoning and free will must be involved in choosing the method of doing the math.

Now I could decide to use a calculator, or maybe I’ll just guess, or maybe I’m just not in the mood to do stupid math questions, so I’ll just blow it off.

What is it that tips the scale one way or the other? Is it actually a conscious decision, or is there a subconscious trigger that trips the scale one way or the other?

On the surface it appears as though you made a conscious choice, but was that conscious choice preceded by a subconscious trigger? And are all of your choices preceded by a subconscious trigger, such that you don’t actually make any conscious choices at all.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.
 
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Is every choice that you make, and every factor that you consider in making that choice, preceded by a subconscious trigger? Such that your conscious awareness of these things only occurs after the fact? Do you have no actual conscious control at all? It’s entirely possible that every factor that you consider, and every choice that you make occurs subconsciously?
 
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I’m actually pointing out the way we determine our action depends on how we can interpret the given situation. It is not actually about solving Math equations but rather how we are able to solve it just by ourselves. Even the trigger that will drive our conscious effort must come from an interpretable data(cognitive aspect). Because we can’t make sense of the light that we perceived through our eyes until we develop the knowledge of its meaning and spacial relationship. So our subconscious gradually builds up from the previous conscious experiences we had and then so we only react efficiently on something that is previously interpreted rather naturally built within us.

What is natural is how we biologically react to stimuli that is within the boundaries of our senses. But the intellectual part of how we react to it is still nurtured by our own experiences of them or how we received words that define those stimuli. Even how we properly walk evolved from our sense of balance by how we experience them. Then we run after we learn to determine the difference of speed not that we are born to know that speed is necessary but only after we realize that we need to outrun something.

But with regards to the spiritual aspect of things. We also acquire wisdom from God aswell which isn’t natural but spiritual (I actually find chromosome fusion is the key when we received our souls, just hypothetical 😃) . I don’t want to have a claim that all things are learned only by our own efforts but will suppose that God left us some room to enjoy more things as a mortal being by learning new things by ourselves. And in any moment of time, our intellectual part is be overwritten by the wisdom God implanted to us so then we don’t go astray to his plan. Such in the case when we receive baptism which make the holy spirit be a part of us and eventually confirm our action to always be in accordance to God’s plan. Enlighten me with this one*

So Free-Will of man goes within the boundaries of our mortal interaction to mortal entities and our biological constructs but the Will of God parents all of it.

To make it easier to think - We can get banned at anytime by the moderator if we go beyond or against the set rules in this forum (I know, this is kinda weak analogy 😊, forgive me its already 4am)

By the way, i wont make claims that my presuppositions are all correct. They are just the limits of my thinking and I’m very open to learning. And thanks for welcoming me 🙂 I really appreciate it! You guys have brilliant minds.
 
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