Can we believe in infant damnation?

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If by hardcore you mean someone who accepts what the Church teaches. That’s not really hardcore, though. That was fairly ordinary for all the western world until pretty recently, actually.
 
jayk15 said:
Wouldn’t a person who has never known about the truth of Jesus(someone from another religion) were to die unbaptised? He would be in the same position as the unbaptised baby.
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Not necessarily. The unbaptized baby lacked the use of reason and the capacity to exercise free will; thus, although he lacks the capacity to sin, he also lacks the capacity to practice virtue. A person who has the capacity to reason, but who has never heard the Gospel, nevertheless does have the capacity to practice virtue. The capacity to practice virtue is important, because merit lies in the will; the mere failure to commit sins, without more, is not meritorious. This is why the salvation of unbaptized infants is not a clear-cut issue.
jayk15 said:
I think that when a human being dies(whether a baby, adult etc.) they are not bound by the physical limitations of the human body(whether it be intelligence, age strength etc.) so their soul would be able to make a choice after death.
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This is not what the Church teaches. The choice must be made before death, and persevered in until death.
 
Catholics who understand Catholicism do not believe in infant damnation.
 
grannymh said:
Catholics who understand Catholicism do not believe in infant damnation.
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It depends what you mean by that. In the same sense as the damned? No, surely not. In the sense of limbo or a place in hell reserved for them apart from the damned who commit mortal sin? Absolutely.

I’m assuming you mean the former, for you cannot mean the later. Evey Doctor of the Church falls into the second category, and I’m sure you agree that they are Catholics who understand Catholicism.
 
IntegraCatholic said:
We could say that unconditionally except for original sin, which is the problem with your theory.

In other words, you disagree with the Church’s teaching that Baptism is necessary for salvation?
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Original sin is not a “mark” or “stain” on the soul. It is our human tendency to sin. Baptism helps us to live lvies of grace.

Babies desire God because they are good. So I do not disagree with the church.

God is not legalistic and mean, but loving and merciful.
 
Question: What with the Eastern Catholic (I’m referring specifically to Byzantine, really) view of original sin being different from the Latin view, do they have a theological opinion different from that of the LAtins as per the state of unbaptized infants?
 
TedDC said:
Why would God, who created mankind out of love, inflict any punishment on the most innocent of all his creation, who had not even the opportunity to sin?
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God wouldn’t. I can not even wrap my mind around the fact that some people believe that infants are not with God. It is totally antithetical to everything I learned in the Church. I was taught that God is loving, and we are a family and wil all be together one day in heaven. If babies can not enter heaven, then what does that say for us!?
 
IntegraCatholic said:
It depends what you mean by that. In the same sense as the damned? No, surely not. In the sense of limbo or a place in hell reserved for them apart from the damned who commit mortal sin? Absolutely.

I’m assuming you mean the former, for you cannot mean the later. Evey Doctor of the Church falls into the second category, and I’m sure you agree that they are Catholics who understand Catholicism.
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Limbo was never a declared dogma. It was a popular belief that was understood. For Catholic teaching, please read paragraph 1257 last sentence and paragraph 1261 of the universal *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition *
Link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
IntegraCatholic said:
We could say that unconditionally except for original sin, which is the problem with your theory.

In other words, you disagree with the Church’s teaching that Baptism is necessary for salvation?
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Please check out the last sentence in paragraph 1257 of the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. Link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
It would also be informative to read paragraphs 1257 -1261.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17
 
Aggiornamento said:
I would recommend reading the section on Baptism in this booklet, as it provides a good understanding of original sin and Baptism. Baptism enables us as a community to overcome our sinful condition. It is not a rite of purification.

cflreligion.org/p-801-catholic-teaching-on-the-sacraments.aspx
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Here is another good source.

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Original Sin
is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics is also very useful.
 
I disagree with the position that all we can say is “trust the mercy of God” to such persons anymore than we can say that about anyone who ever dies. The only means of salvation available to infants is baptism. This is clearly stated in the Roman Catechism.
 
IntegraCatholic said:
I disagree with the position that all we can say is “trust the mercy of God” to such persons anymore than we can say that about anyone who ever dies. The only means of salvation available to infants is baptism. This is clearly stated in the Roman Catechism.
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May I respectfully ask for your paragraph citations in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, which is the norm for Catholic teaching.
Link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Personally I hope someone “trusts me to the mercy of God” when I die.

Blessings,
granny

“Lamb of God, You take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.”
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
 
We entrust everyone to the mercy of God. That is precisely my point, madame.

That doesn’t prevent us from saying that those who die in mortal sin descend immediately into hell (as Lyons II says) or that those who die in original sin only descend immediately into hell but to be punished with different punishments (as Lyons II says). It doesn’t prevent us from saying that there is no salvation outside the Church, that one must fulfill the laws of God and the precepts of the Church to be saved, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Just because we entrust souls to the mercy of God doesn’t mean we can’t say all of these things. In fact, we must say them if we would follow the infallible teaching of the Church.
 
IntegraCatholic said:
We entrust everyone to the mercy of God. That is precisely my point, madame.

That doesn’t prevent us from saying that those who die in mortal sin descend immediately into hell (as Lyons II says) or that those who die in original sin only descend immediately into hell but to be punished with different punishments (as Lyons II says). It doesn’t prevent us from saying that there is no salvation outside the Church, that one must fulfill the laws of God and the precepts of the Church to be saved, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Just because we entrust souls to the mercy of God doesn’t mean we can’t say all of these things. In fact, we must say them if we would follow the infallible teaching of the Church.
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Are you referring to the topics which were debated at Lyons II? Trinity, resurrection, purgatory, hell, day of judgment?
Please elaborate with citations including the specific language used during the reported discussions/debates regarding infants. Everyone knows that over the centuries, countless theologians have offered their speculations and presented them for discussion. Nonetheless, it is necessary to locate any officially (rubrics) proclaimed dogma.

Were the discussions/debates part of "doctrinal development’ which has occurred over centuries?
Even though public Divine Revelation is already completed, it has not been made completely explicit. It remains for Catholicism, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to gradually grasp its full significance.

For example, the specific salvific actions which reconciled mankind to God occurred because of only one person, Jesus Christ. Absolutely, Jesus Christ died for all because of the unity of the human race. This unity of descent insures that all men and women are called to the same destiny which is eternal life with the Beatific Vision. Catholicism holds that the Holy Spirit offers to all human beings in every stage of their humanity, the possibility of being made partakers in salvation. How souls are reached is obviously in God’s merciful province. Remember that God is the Creator. God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but God Himself is not bound by His created means of grace.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17 is for all persons.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
All it says is that we trust the infants to the mercy of God. Are we not allowed to theorize, theologically, what that entails?
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I once believed that there were ice cream cones in heaven. 😛
Was I theologically theorizing what heaven entails?

Of course I was because I had a firm grasp of the theological truth that heaven exists.
As long as we accept the theological truth that God’s mercy exists, we can creatively theorize what His mercy entails within the limits of total Divine Revelation.

These limits are essential to keep us on track. For example, when I was thinking about ice cream and heaven, I had a vague concept of living with God and how everything would be wonderful. I knew I could do bad things by disobeying my parents which in a limited sense was the beginning knowledge of intellect and will.

To fast forward to the mercy of God. While we are theorizing the ways God is merciful, we cannot go against the fact of free will choice. This brings us to difficult questions regarding people who have no clue Who Jesus Christ is. Or if people know of Jesus Christ but for some unknown reason cannot assimilate this knowledge, what happens? Figuring all that out is God’s job. Our job is to share the good news of salvation as best we can.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for spiritual truth needs Catholicism.
 
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