Can we confirm that In Vitro Fertilization is inhumane?

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Oh dear, someone on the internet thinks I’m wrong. However will I sleep at night?
 
If you’re so confident about your non-Catholic viewpoints, why do you repeatedly post here? Surely you know that you’ll continue to receive correction and solid Catholic Apologetics.

I sense conflict within you.
 
Cruciferi said:
If you’re so confident about your non-Catholic viewpoints, why do you repeatedly post here? Surely you know that you’ll continue to receive correction and solid Catholic Apologetics.

I sense conflict within you.
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I sense you don’t listen to my replies. I enjoy discussion.
 
Double standard ideologies ought not to be questioned.
 
Like I said before, a miscarriage is unintentional. In ivf we know for sure that not all are going to stick. Intent is the key word. A rough analogy would be knowingly sending 5 people into a situation you created where only one or none survive (if you’re lucky, 2 or 3) vs a natural situation where one person might die depending on his/her luck, lol. For the former, we are certain that lives will be lost. In reference to IVF, they’re creating people who will die. For the latter, it’s not in our control and we didn’t create that situation. In reference to sex, we are not consciously ‘creating’ someone (ie we are not consciously fertilizing) and it’s all left to chance.

Kind of like how the Church allows medical treatments that the mother needs that may result in the death of her unborn kiddo, but a direct abortion would not be permitted.

But you know this already. Your root issue is that you don’t believe that the embryo has the same value as a born human??
 
Actually my “root issue” is that many women in my family are prone to miscarriages. They go into pregnancy knowing that the odds are better that the child will die than that they will live. Seems rather similar to me.
 
Same with mine. But nothing I said changes it at all?

they’re not intending the death of a person. It’s literally out of their control. The only thing in their control would be having sex and even then, fertilization in the first place isn’t guaranteed. It’s not in their control.

Just curious, if one of these women decides to abort because the fetus would die anyway…do you think that’s unethical? Because you don’t seem to think the intent is important here?
 
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Lea101 said:
Same with mine. But nothing I said changes it at all?

they’re not intending the death of a person. It’s literally out of their control. The only thing in their control would be having sex and even then, fertilization in the first place isn’t guaranteed. It’s not in their control.

Just curious, if one of these women decides to abort because the fetus would die anyway…do you think that’s unethical? Because you don’t seem to think the intent is important here?
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They go into it knowing there will be death. Seems the same to me.

I don’t see anything unethical there.
 
Death they directly caused vs death they didn’t. Also in the case of the pregnancy, they didn’t deliberately create a life to end it. Conception would be out of their control. Which I keep saying but you are not addressing this at all?

I would believe that it would be wrong for me to shoot someone who’s say, already on their death bed. Because the difference would be me killing him vs him dying a natural death.

Which would ultimately be the pro life position: that from conception to natural death, we should not deliberately end the life of a person.
 
Feels to me like a death they caused. To have a child they know some won’t make it. In ivf they don’t specifically create life to end them, they fertilize to get viable ones. If they could ensure a one to one ratio they’d go with that.

So you think it’s unethical to abort a foetus that won’t make it?
 
Alex337 said:
Feels to me like a death they caused
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At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what you “feel”. The hypothetical miscarriage is not their fault and they have no control over probability. Whereas, The Catholic Church has declared IVF immoral, unnatural, and a grave sin.

www.catholic.com

Why is In Vitro Fertilization wrong?

Dr. George Delgado explains what the Catholic Church teaches about In Vitro Fertilization.
www.catholic.com www.catholic.com
 
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That’s nice 😊 I disagree and at the end of the day thousands of people exist because of it and we’ll only get better at doing it.
 
Cruciferi said:
The Catholic Church has declared IVF immoral, unnatural, and a grave sin.
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Not for the reasons you are stating though.

If a woman who knows she has a high chance of miscarrying plans a preganancy I agree with @Alex337 that the morality re the deaths is no different to IVF.
 
I do agree that killing the non implanted babies is wrong.

I don’t think that the deaths of the implanted babies are intentional though.

I am also not arguing against Church teaching on IVF. IVF is immoral because it separates the unitave and procreative aspects of sex.

If every baby was guaranteed to implant and none were murdered after not being implanted the Church would still oppose IVF because they are not the fundamental issues with it.
 
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They didn’t cause the death. They didn’t even intentionally create a child.
Alex337 said:
In ivf they don’t specifically create life to end them, they fertilize to get viable ones
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They know that not all of the embryos will certainly survive.
Alex337 said:
So you think it’s unethical to abort a foetus that won’t make it?
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I do. Because aborting it would be an act. I don’t believe in deliberately ending an innocent life, regardless of age. In that example I gave earlier would you shoot a man in his death bed. Or other examples: a boy with muscular dystrophy/chronic illness etcc. It’s not the perfect analogy because one would have to take into account the emotional toll, but I’m referring to the reasoning as to why it would be ethical or unethical.
Elf01 said:
I do agree that killing the non implanted babies is wrong.
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Isn’t that what we were talking about though? Those embryos that didn’t get to be implanted. Those that were implanted and then die off…wouldnt that be miscarriage?
Elf01 said:
IVF is immoral because it separates the unitave and procreative aspects of sex.
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Ultimately this is true. It’s not a fundamental issue when we are talking about the morality but it’s an issue regarding IVF in our current day and age if we are pro life, of course.
 
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