Can we correctly interpret the Scriptures?

[thinkandmull]

Spoken like a good Catholic Calvinist Pentecostal-still trying to figure you out. Anyway, sorry but your descriptions of private or “special” revelations reveals a lack of depth of understanding of how God works in certain cases. What you describe are indeed gifts of grace: senses and promptings and understanding and faith itself. But the private revelations of which the Church speaks are of a different order, or on a whole different level.They are rare and incomparably profound, direct communications from God that leave no room for uncertainty about what specific knowledge was given and Whom it was given by. They are granted strictly at God’s discretion, for His purpose, and are not the kinds of experiences had by most believers in this life, even as we should all be open to and seek the deepest union and communication with God as possible, of course. Here’s chap 9, session 6 from Trent BTW:

Against the vain confidence of Heretics.
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither [Page 37] is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ***. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

---

Since mortal sin requires that one know he is committing mortal sin, if someone knows he has never committed one, would he not know he is in a state of grace from infant baptism?

 

[fhansen]

Since mortal sin requires that one know he is committing mortal sin, if someone knows he has never committed one, would he not know he is in a state of grace from infant baptism?

God judges by the heart, man by appearances according to Scripture. We have only external guidelines to go by such as the teaching on mortal sin, but none of us can know with 100% certainty the state of the human soul.

 

[thinkandmull]

The three conditions for a mortal sin require that the person know he is committing a mortal sin

 

[fhansen]

The three conditions for a mortal sin require that the person know he is committing a mortal sin

And sin originates in the heart. So, who besides God can know with certainty??? We can have a gaurded assurance, based on the Spirit’s working in us and the fruit in our lives, but not the absolute confidence that some insist on. Meanwhile we work out our salvation, with at least a degree of fear and trembling, together with He who works in us.

 

[thinkandmull]

Saying that we cannot fully know what goes on in our hearts seems to deny free will

 

[fhansen]

Saying that we cannot fully know what goes on in our hearts seems to deny free will

I think it’s just to affirm our limitations-and our sin. In any case, as the catechism teaches, man is divided even within himself as a result of original sin. We don’t live totallly, innocently, in line with the truth of who we are and who God is, let alone to “fully know what goes on in our hearts”. Are ISIS members true to themselves, to suggest an extreme example of this division?

 

[LatinRight]

Hi, LR. Your posts have served to prove the overwhelming need for an external Tradition-based, Spirit-led human entity-the Church-to settle these matters…because we can trade verses all day long. So remember that branches grafted in can be cut back off, Rom 11:17-21, soil where the seed (the Word) first takes root and flourishes can prove to be poor soil where the seedling later withers and dies, Matt 13. Believers can taste of the heavenly gift but later reject it, Heb 6:4,; they can fail to remain in Christ, John 15:6. Even Paul recognized that he hadn’t yet attained to eternal life, though he was striving for it, Phil 3:12.

And this is why believers are continuously admonished and warned in Scripture to strive, persevere, be vigilant, be holy, be perfect, remain faithful, refrain from sin, do good, love each other, invest ones “talents”, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc, etc, generally with the loss of place in the kingdom at stake. Again, anyone can believe themselves to be numbered among the elect, but God, alone, knows with certainty, and many will be surprised in the end according to Matt 7:22 and Matt 25:31-46, for example.

So now you know why the Church is such a critical part of God’s plan of salvation, and why we cannot necessarily “correctly interpret the Scriptures” on our own:

**2032 The Church, the “pillar and bulwark of the truth,” "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

**

**God bless Fhansen,

I agree we need knowledge of the teachings of the RCC to interpret Scriptures.

I know from your posts Fhansen, you have very high knowledge of RCC teachings and Scriptures understanding.

A very simple question:

Please explain to us: How God saves the reprobates?

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[Evan]

Since mortal sin requires that one know he is committing mortal sin, if someone knows he has never committed one, would he not know he is in a state of grace from infant baptism?

Fr Bob Spitzer says that man has an infinite capacity to self-justify. The longer the time between a sin and confession, the more we convince ourselves that what we knew was a sin at the time becomes less and less a sin in our own eyes.

So one could commit a mortal sin, but through self justification, deny it is mortal or even that it is a sin.

So you cannot know your state of grace, so should regularly go to confession while the sins are still fresh in your mind

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

I agree we need knowledge of the teachings of the RCC to interpret Scriptures.

I know from your posts Fhansen, you have very high knowledge of RCC teachings and Scriptures understanding.

A very simple question:

Please explain to us: How God saves the reprobates?

God bless

LatinRight**

I’m not really sure what you’re asking. The Church teaches that God presdestjnes no one to hell. So the reprobate are that way because they choose to be.

 

[thinkandmull]

I don’t think reason is so far from will that one cannot know if they committed a mortal sin. Whether they are forgiven for one they know of perhaps is not possible to know, and maybe that is only what Trent is talking about. Anyway, Paul’s comments on these I think only apply to venial sins

 

[LatinRight]

I’m not really sure what you’re asking. The Church teaches that God presdestjnes no one to hell. So the reprobate are that way because they choose to be.

**God bless Fhansen,

I’m sorry, I didn’t explain it correctly.

According to RCC teachings, there are only two groups of people in the world; God’s children and the reprobates.

1. God’s children/His elect predestined to heaven and they are all end up in heaven.

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1. Foreknew
2. Predestined
3. Called
4. Justified
5. Glorified

No surprises, everything goes according to God’s plan of salvation.

1. The other group is the reprobates.

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, by taken out the

names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His

grace. – For this reason all reprobates goes to hell.

Some Christians believes, God saves some reprobates before they go to hell.

I cannot imagine how their salvation fits into God’s pattern of salvation or how even

possible that some of them can be saved at all.

To tell the truth, I cannot even imagine they are can be saved at all.

My questions are:

If you believe Fhansen, that reprobates in some period of their life can be saved before

they end up in hell; How their salvation is possible?

IF POSSIBLE:

a. According to what pattern God can save them?

b. How it is possible at all that they can be saved?

c. What would happen if some of them would die while he is in the state of grace.

d. Where would a reprobate end up if he would die while he is in the state of grace, in heaven or in hell?

These above questions are crucial, our salvation is the heart of the gospel.

Thank you in advance.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

I’m sorry, I didn’t explain it correctly.

According to RCC teachings, there are only two groups of people in the world; God’s children and the reprobates.

1. God’s children/His elect predestined to heaven and they are all end up in heaven.

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1. Foreknew
2. Predestined
3. Called
4. Justified
5. Glorified

No surprises, everything goes according to God’s plan of salvation.

1. The other group is the reprobates.

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, by taken out the

names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His

grace. – For this reason all reprobates goes to hell.

Some Christians believes, God saves some reprobates before they go to hell**.

I cannot imagine how their salvation fits into God’s pattern of salvation or how even

possible that some of them can be saved at all.

To tell the truth, I cannot even imagine they are can be saved at all.

My questions are:

If you believe Fhansen, that reprobates in some period of their life can be saved before

they end up in hell; How their salvation is possible?

IF POSSIBLE:

a. According to what pattern God can save them?

b. How it is possible at all that they can be saved?

c. What would happen if some of them would die while he is in the state of grace.

d. Where would a reprobate end up if he would die while he is in the state of grace, in heaven or in hell?

These above questions are crucial, our salvation is the heart of the gospel.

Thank you in advance.

God bless

LatinRight

We’re saved by grace but not without our cooperation with it; man’s will is involved. God foreknows our choices but does not predetermine them. On top of that *we *don’t know who they are, whether the elect or the reprobate. From our perspective all we know is that God desires all to be saved, and that all can be saved. Everything else is rather academic.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think reason is so far from will that one cannot know if they committed a mortal sin. Whether they are forgiven for one they know of perhaps is not possible to know, and maybe that is only what Trent is talking about. Anyway, Paul’s comments on these I think only apply to venial sins

We know that God is all for us.And that He’s gentle, kind, merciful, trustworthy, forgiving; He’s pure love. And we know that He expects us to be just/righteous, and that our justice depends on communion *with *Him, and that said justice is best described by the term “love” as well, His very image that we’re to be transformed into. IOW, to the extent that we fulfill the greatest commandments, with the help of grace, our justice is complete. And fruits as evidence should naturally follow from this love.We can know, based on His love for us that as we come to believe in, hope in, and ultimately to love Him, our salvation is secure. Love fulfills the law, love excludes sin.

As St John of the Cross put it, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

In the end, either way, He’s still the judge-of how we lived, of how well we’ve done with what we’ve been given: grace: revelation, time experience, opportunities in general.

 

[thinkandmull]

I guess if a man says “I have repented to the fullest extent possible” and still doesn’t know if he has been forgiven for a mortal sin, than maybe we can’t know if we are in mortal sin because God’s promise was to erase our sins when we repent. Its just a weird idea though

 

[fhansen]

I guess if a man says “I have repented to the fullest extent possible” and still doesn’t know if he has been forgiven for a mortal sin, than maybe we can’t know if we are in mortal sin because God’s promise was to erase our sins when we repent. Its just a weird idea though

The gospel is all about authentic change, change of heart, infusion and growth in true justice or righteousness.Humans can be aligned with truth; our contrition, for example, can be deep and honest and genuine. We can also be false, hypocritical, not necessarily even honest with ourselves, or somewhere in between these extremes… Either way God wants much for us; He wants us to be real, who we were created to be.

 

[LatinRight]

We’re saved by grace but not without our cooperation with it; man’s will is involved. God foreknows our choices but does not predetermine them. On top of that *we *don’t know who they are, whether the elect or the reprobate. From our perspective all we know is that God desires all to be saved, and that all can be saved. Everything else is rather academic.

**God bless Fhansen,

Thank you for your answer. I agree what you have written.

But this didn’t answer my questions.

We don’t have to know and we can’t know who are God’s children and who are the reprobates.

And to answer my question we don’t need to know.

My questions are only general questions.

I try to make my questions as clear as possible.

1. Fhansen do you believe reprobates can be saved?
2. What would happen if God would save some reprobates and some of them would die in

the state of grace, where would those reprobates end up in heaven or in hell?

You have great knowledge in both RCC teaching and Bible understanding.

I don’t think for you would be great difficulty to know the answers to the above questions.

If you don’t what to answer the first question because of privacy I respect that.

But in this case, please answer the second question.

This second question is only an easy general question.

I ask the question only because I wish to test my knowledge with your answer. - This

academic question is rather important because it is the heart of the Gospel.

As ambassadors of the Lord Jesus Christ I believe we should know this “academic” truth/fact.

Thank you in advance.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[thinkandmull]

The gospel is all about authentic change, change of heart, infusion and growth in true justice or righteousness.Humans can be aligned with truth; our contrition, for example, can be deep and honest and genuine. We can also be false, hypocritical, not necessarily even honest with ourselves, or somewhere in between these extremes… Either way God wants much for us; He wants us to be real, who we were created to be.

Its scary that we can’t know

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

Thank you for your answer. I agree what you have written.

But this didn’t answer my questions.

We don’t have to know and we can’t know who are God’s children and who are the reprobates.

And to answer my question we don’t need to know.

My questions are only general questions.

I try to make my questions as clear as possible.

1. Fhansen do you believe reprobates can be saved?
2. What would happen if God would save some reprobates and some of them would die in

the state of grace, where would those reprobates end up in heaven or in hell**?

You have great knowledge in both RCC teaching and Bible understanding.

I don’t think for you would be great difficulty to know the answers to the above questions.

If you don’t what to answer the first question because of privacy I respect that.

But in this case, please answer the second question.

This second question is only an easy general question.

I ask the question only because I wish to test my knowledge with your answer. - This

academic question is rather important because it is the heart of the Gospel.

As ambassadors of the Lord Jesus Christ I believe we should know this “academic” truth/fact.

Thank you in advance.

God bless

LatinRight

Ok, I see what you’re asking,. ‘Can God save those who He foreknew would end up in hell?’ And the question is the same as, ‘Can God save those who are in hell now?’

And the answer is* no,* because He deemed it right and good that man shoud be left in the hands of his own counsel. God will not override man’s will.

 

[LatinRight]

Ok, I see what you’re asking,. ‘Can God save those who He foreknew would end up in hell?’ And the question is the same as, ‘Can God save those who are in hell now?’

And the answer is* no,* because He deemed it right and good that man shoud be left in the hands of his own counsel. God will not override man’s will.

God bless Fhansen,

Thank you for your answer. I have the same view.

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

I don’t think reason is so far from will that one cannot know if they committed a mortal sin. Whether they are forgiven for one they know of perhaps is not possible to know, and maybe that is only what Trent is talking about. Anyway, Paul’s comments on these I think only apply to venial sins

**God bless Thinkandmull,

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him

and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil

TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "That Great and Special Gift of

Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of

which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’

Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who

stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final

perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and

even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas

said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and

guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Without this gift of God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.” NONE OF US COULD

MAKE IT TO HEAVEN, without it the destiny of ALL OF US would be IN HELL.

God gives this special protecting and guarding grace to every of His children at baptism

called “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS SPECIAL PROTECTING AND GUARDING GRACE

How far this special protecting and guarding grace goes in our protection?

1. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
2. Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
3. St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

What exactly means for us: “abiding in good TO the end of life.”?

Does this mean, the recipients (God’s children/elect) of this gift protected from doing even

one act of mortal sin from baptism until to the end of life?

I believe this is what it means “abiding in good TO the end of life.”

I wonder how many readers of the CAF understand this the same way then I understand it?

Not even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of life.

Of course if someone proves, I have a wrong understanding on the meaning of “abiding in

good TO the end of life,” I change my view. – Until then my view stands.

God bless

LatinRight**