Can we correctly interpret the Scriptures?

[spina1953]

It seems to me that God wants to save everyone,but because God gave mankind free will to choose because He did not want to force or have a robot type people who are not able to choose, instead wanted mankind to choose Him and to Love Him freely. Not everyone will be saved. Why? Because of free will. Many will choose to reject God and others will not. God is full of mercy and compassion and love, so if one who has rejected God all one’s life decides freely to change and ask for forgiveness God can certainly forgive that person.

 God never stops loving and never stops wanting to save, but God will not interfere with man's choice to choose Him or to reject Him.This is what free will is all about. God is so full of compassion and mercy that when Adam and Eve sinned, God did not do to them what he did to the  Angels who sinned by rejecting Him. Instead He promised in time to send His Son to redeem mankind. We don't know who is in heaven nor do we know who is actually in hell. We have to be careful because we will be judged by the same standard we judge others. It maybe that those we think might be in hell might be in heaven and those we believe to be in heaven might be in hell. We can read Scriptures and derive much from it, However, not everything in Scripture is easy to understand. There is much in Scripture difficult to understand, and not easily understood. This is why we need the Catholic Church to help us in the understanding of Scripture. It was the Catholic Church who determined what books are Scripture and what is not and so it is up to the Church to say what Scripture means and what it says, and not the individual.

 We can and should read Scripture, and moreover, the Church wants us to read Scripture. With that being said, the Church also expects us to look to the Church for understanding so that we are not led astray from the truth. However, the Church is silent on much of Scripture until such time as something in Scripture needs to be defended and understood as to what meaning it actually has and what it says.

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Thinkandmull,

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him

and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil

TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "That Great and Special Gift of

Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of

which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’

Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who

stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final

perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and

even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas

said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and

guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Without this gift of God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.” NONE OF US COULD

MAKE IT TO HEAVEN, without it the destiny of ALL OF US would be IN HELL.

God gives this special protecting and guarding grace to every of His children at baptism

called “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS SPECIAL PROTECTING AND GUARDING GRACE

How far this special protecting and guarding grace goes in our protection?

1. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
2. Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
3. St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

What exactly means for us: “abiding in good TO the end of life.”?

Does this mean, the recipients (God’s children/elect) of this gift protected from doing even

one act of mortal sin from baptism until to the end of life?

I believe this is what it means “abiding in good TO the end of life.”

I wonder how many readers of the CAF understand this the same way then I understand it?

Not even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of life.

Of course if someone proves, I have a wrong understanding on the meaning of “abiding in

good TO the end of life,” I change my view. – Until then my view stands.

God bless

LatinRight**

You know, another thought is the Church’s teaching that mortal sin, and *persistence in it, *will separate us from God eteranlly. This persistence, this adamant rejection of God/love, should reveal a deeper or more ingrained level of sin, a truer indication of a person’s state of being. Anyway, I think it’s also important to keep in.mind that grace is always resistible, meaning that man is the wild card, never God.

 

[LatinRight]

You know, another thought is the Church’s teaching that mortal sin, and *persistence in it, *will separate us from God eteranlly. This persistence, this adamant rejection of God/love, should reveal a deeper or more ingrained level of sin, a truer indication of a person’s state of being. Anyway, I think it’s also important to keep in.mind that grace is always resistible, meaning that man is the wild card, never God.

**God bless Fhansen,

Yes I know.

I also know, as *DE FIDE *Dogma, Church also teaches: For the children of God/elect to

commit mortal sin is a theological impossibility, because if they could commit mortal sin

they could lose their salvation and then God also could lose His omniscience.

To put it other way: If it is a possibility that God could lose His omniscience,

it is a possibility that a child of God could commit mortal sin.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

Yes I know.

I also know, as *DE FIDE ***Dogma, Church also teaches: For the children of God/elect to

commit mortal sin is a theological impossibility, because if they could commit mortal sin

they could lose their salvation and then God also could lose His omniscience.

To put it other way: If it is a possibility that God could lose His omniscience,

it is a possibility that a child of God could commit mortal sin.

God bless

LatinRight

Not sure where you’re getting some of this LR . First of all, anyone can commit a mortal sin. The difference is in whether or not they’ve repented before death. This is an aspect of final perseverance, a gift that all believers are to hope in, according to the catechism. Secondly, it’s not of extreme relevance to the individual believer whether or not the elect can lose their salvation since, as Aquinas said, the predestined are in the mind of he who predestines, not in the mind of the predestined. And this aligns with the Church teaching, opposed to the position of the Reformers, that we can have certitude regarding our state of justice/ sanctifying grace/ salvation.

 

[LatinRight]

Not sure where you’re getting some of this LR . First of all, anyone can commit a mortal sin. The difference is in whether or not they’ve repented before death. This is an aspect of final perseverance, a gift that all believers are to hope in, according to the catechism. Secondly, it’s not of extreme relevance to the individual believer whether or not the elect can lose their salvation since, as Aquinas said, the predestined are in the mind of he who predestines, not in the mind of the predestined. And this aligns with the Church teaching, opposed to the position of the Reformers, that we can have certitude regarding our state of justice/ sanctifying grace/ salvation.

**God bless Fhansen,

I understand your post, I also believe your post deserves answer.

The theological facts in the following teachings answer your post.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

End quote Emphasize added.

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS

EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.”

1 John 5:13; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that

you have ETERNAL LIFE.”

If we combine together the *DE FIDE *Dogma of the predestination of the Elect with

John 5:24; and 1 John 5:13 we can see: They are in perfect harmony with each other and

they are complimenting each other.

FIRST THEOLOGICAL FACT

If a child of God would lose his salvation, God would lose His omniscience.

SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT

God’s children are having EVELASTING LIVE.

a. If God’s children could commit mortal sin, they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH. – NOT EVELASTING LIVE.

b. If they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH (as the result committing mortal sins)

some of them would die in the state of mortal sin and God would lose His omniscience.

An example:

Alex is a child of God/elect.

If God’s special gift “The Gift of Final Perseverance” would not protect Alex from

committing mortal sin let’s see the consequences:

Alex has committed a mortal sin in the morning.

He decided will go to confession tomorrow.

Alex had a car accident around midday, died instantly in the state of mortal sin.

Alex went to hell and God lost His omniscience.

As we see above:

If God’s special gift “The Gift of Final Perseverance” would not protect His children from to

commit mortal sin, that would be an instant suicide of God’s omniscience.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless,

SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT

God’s children are having EVELASTING LIVE.

a. If God’s children could commit mortal sin, they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH. – NOT EVELASTING LIVE.

Corrections of my post 45.

SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT

God’s children are having EVELASTING LIFE.

a. If God’s children could commit mortal sin, they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH. – NOT EVELASTING LIFE.

God bless

LatinRigt**

 

[fhansen]

Sorry, your argument us with the Church, whose members wrote the Scriptures. Election is irrevocable. God, alone, knows with absolute certitude who the elect are. But Scripture, without the (name removed by moderator)ut of the Church, can be argued both ways.

 

[fhansen]

To clarify. With Scripture both sides of the assurance of salvation and OSAS positions are argued.

 

[LatinRight]

Sorry, your argument us with the Church, whose members wrote the Scriptures. Election is irrevocable. God, alone, knows with absolute certitude who the elect are. But Scripture, without the (name removed by moderator)ut of the Church, can be argued both ways.

**God bless Fhansen,

I don’t believe my argument is with the Catholic Church.

I believe Christ founded the Catholic Church and protects the Church from teaching errors.

I believe, so far we agree on my post # 45.

Which based on the DE FIDE Dogma of the RCC and the Scriptures as follows.

Essence of # 45

FIRST THEOLOGICAL FACT

A reprobate cannot be saved and if a child of God would lose his salvation, God would lose His omniscience.

SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT

Every child of God has EVELASTING LIFE.

(If they could commit mortal sins, they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH and could easily end up in hell.)

THIRD THEOLOGICAL FACT

Naturally follows from the above two theological facts.

Every child of God protected by God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance” from

committing even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of their life.

The above theological facts are the teachings of the RCC’S DE FIDE Dogma in harmony the Scriptures.

I believe we both agree on the above theological facts with many other Christians.

You have written Fhansen:

Scripture, without the (name removed by moderator)ut of the Church, can be argued both ways.

I believe some hard to understand Bible verses which need to be interpreted can be argued different ways.

But there are also many easy to understand Bible verses where there is no room for interpretation, simply means what it says.

For example:

1 Cor.11:27-29; The Eucharist is only for God’s children/elect.

No one free to partake in the Eucharist without self examination/self test.

If someone doesn’t believe he is an elect, not free to partake in the Eucharist because he

is partake in it without faith/unworthy manner and eating and drinking judgment upon himself.

In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it.

It would be foolish to say/believe, God has given us a COMMAND to test our faith and

God doesn’t want us that we know the test result.

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote.

When God has given the COMMAND to us to do the test, God has also given us the

ability to do the test and the ability to know the outcome of the test.

2 Cor.13:5-6 simply means what it says, no room for interpretation, it is room only to OBEY it.

It means we MUST DO THE TEST (it is God’s COMMAND) and we MUST KNOW THE

TEST RESULT, meaning: We are God’s elect and we are free to partake in the Eucharist

by faith as we KNOW who we are/elect or we are not free to participate in the Eucharist

because we have failed the test.

You have written Fhansen:

“God, alone, knows with absolute certitude who the elect are.”

Ok. I believe it.

0% Faith …………………………………………………… 100 % Faith.

Salvation is by Faith. What do you think Fhansen how many % faith titles us for salvation

which % pleases God and grants us salvation, 60 %, 80 %, etc.?

Do you think Fhansen our 100 % faith would please God the most, or that would be too much faith?

I will answer you post # 48 in my next post.

God bless

LatinRight.**

 

[LatinRight]

To clarify. With Scripture both sides of the assurance of salvation and OSAS positions are argued.

**God bless Fhansen,

To tell the truth I never read any official RCC teaching on the OSAS.

I have some idea of the OSAS from my general theological knowledge.

Some from the members of the posts of the CAF, some from the *DE FIDE *Dogma

Predestination of the elect, and some from the Scriptures.

I tell you Fhansen my view on OSAS, please correct me if I’m wrong.

I believe, Catholics free to believe OSAS in a restricted way, but they are not free to believe OSAS in a general way.

Catholics free to believe OSAS in a restricted way.

Catholics free to believe a group of people who are in a matter speech are OSAS, One

Saved, Always Saved, based on the *DE FIDE *Dogma of the RCC Predestination of

the elect and the Scriptures.

Their names stands written in the Book of Life, they are the children of God/elect, predestined to heaven.

They are protected with God’s special gift “The Gift of Final Perseverance” from

committing even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of their life.

They are recipients of many different spiritual gifts of God and they always stay in the

state of grace, so when ewer they die they always die in the state of grace. – No surprises,

everything goes on according to God’s plan of salvation.

Catholics are not free to believe OSAS in a general way.

Reason: I have heard some teaching goes around in Catholic circles called “Predestination to Grace.”

I don’t know much about it at all. I don’t know what kind of a teaching it is or what level of teaching it is.

If we try to investigate who they are first we must have some knowledge of the Book of Life.

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he

establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life

before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates from the Book

of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them are predestined to heaven.

Now we are ready to investigate who they are.

According to the Book of Life, the members of the “Predestined to grace” are the

reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life before the creation of

the world for their vehement rejection of God and his grace.

According to the teaching of “Predestination to grace” some of the reprobates are

converted into Christianity, they are living in the state of grace, if they commit mortal

sins can be restored by confession.

So far so good.

But let’s see an example:

Reprobate Alex is a real Christian, he is in the state of grace.

He had a car accident, died instantly in the state of grace.

Reprobate Alex went up to heaven and God lost His omniscience.

There are Biblical complications as well with the salvation of the reprobates.

Rom.8:29-30;
God Calls into His service only His elect.

Rom.6:23; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc.
The gift of God is eternal life, NOT LIFE FOR A LIMITED TIME.

Rom.11:29;
“For the gift and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

So those who teach, God saves the reprobates have to explain their view of the salvation of the reprobates such as:

1. As they living in the state of grace how God makes sure they never die in the state of

grace. – For example: They can never have a car accident while they are in the state of

grace, because they would die in the state of Grace, and they would end up in heaven

and God would lose His omniscience.

1. How God call the reprobates into His service with His irrevocable calling and how God

give them His irrevocable gift of salvation? etc etc.

Fhansen if you know please explain it to me, if you don’t know please find it out: – I’m I a

bit too pushy? But you would find it out for yourself anyway.

1. How it is possible reprobates never die in a car accident while they are in the state of grace?
2. How God call reprobates into His service with His irrevocable calling and how God

gives them His irrevocable gift of salvation?

Thank you in advance.

God bless

LatinRight.**

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

I understand your post, I also believe your post deserves answer.

The theological facts in the following teachings answer your post**.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

End quote Emphasize added.

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS

EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.”

1 John 5:13; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that

you have ETERNAL LIFE.”

If we combine together the *DE FIDE *Dogma of the predestination of the Elect with

John 5:24; and 1 John 5:13 we can see: They are in perfect harmony with each other and

they are complimenting each other.

FIRST THEOLOGICAL FACT

If a child of God would lose his salvation, God would lose His omniscience.

SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT

God’s children are having EVELASTING LIVE.

a. If God’s children could commit mortal sin, they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH. – NOT EVELASTING LIVE.

b. If they would have only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH (as the result committing mortal sins)

some of them would die in the state of mortal sin and God would lose His omniscience.

An example:

Alex is a child of God/elect.

If God’s special gift “The Gift of Final Perseverance” would not protect Alex from

committing mortal sin let’s see the consequences:

Alex has committed a mortal sin in the morning.

He decided will go to confession tomorrow.

Alex had a car accident around midday, died instantly in the state of mortal sin.

Alex went to hell and God lost His omniscience.

As we see above:

If God’s special gift “The Gift of Final Perseverance” would not protect His children from to

commit mortal sin, that would be an instant suicide of God’s omniscience.

God bless

LatinRight

The answer is a very simple one. Alex is a child of God/elect only if he has been given the gift of final perseverance by God, in which case he simply cannot commit an act prior to death that would end up excommunicating him eternally from God’s presence. If he could, then your assertion that Alex was a child of God/elect would be incorrect.

 

[fhansen]

Not sure where to start even-there’s so much wrong here. Latin Right, you still seem to me to either be a “catholic” Calvinist or a Roman Catholic desperately struggling to reconcile RCC theology with your own theology, for one reason or another. The only thing we agreed on so far is that the elect cannot become “non-elect”; election is irrevocable. But justification and conversion in Catholic theology is both an event and a process.* We aren’t certain of salvation, which we work out with God during our lives, until He declares us to be saved, or not saved, at the end of our days here on earth. So a child of God can indeed forfeit his adopted status. At any point in our lives only God knows-by His omniscience-who will persevere and who will not anyway. Compare your beliefs, where the sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession/Penance should have no place apparently, with the teaching of the Church:

**1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47

1486 The forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism is conferred by a particular sacrament called the sacrament of conversion, confession, penance, or reconciliation.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.**
LatinRight;14243971:

2 Cor.13:5-6 simply means what it says, no room for interpretation, it is room only to OBEY it.

I was addressing Scripture’s position on* assurance of salvation/OSAS.*

Do you think Fhansen our 100 % faith would please God the most, or that would be too much faith?

As for this, you seem to be placing your faith* in* your faith. The question, ‘What level of faith pleases God?’, makes little sense because our faith is simply in Him and His promises, not in a subjectively assessed analysis of our faith, itself, something which the Church refers to as “fiduciary faith”,* faith in faith*-as if all we have to do is believe, a non-Catholic perspective. So our salvation is not dependent on how strongly we believe we’re saved, but rather on how we live our lives based on the belief or trust placed in Him and His promises.

 

[Duane1966]

It has often been argued that the further we get from a period of time the further is our understanding of what they wrote about. Is this a defendable position? I think it might be. Each generation passes on the linguistic changes of the previous one. It would seem that in order to understand that old Testament we would have to go through linguistic manuals for each generation all the way back to the beginning of Scriptural writing. This is far more of an issue for Protestants, but even Catholics must interpret their Councils and even the Bible as a historical document to defend the Councils. One example comes to mind. If I say “it has been reported that so-and-so said this before he died”, most of us would know I mean to say it is only probable that he said this. But years from some “reported” might be understood to mean something “very certain”. So with regard to the two most important Scriptures in defending Catholicism (Matt. 16:18 and 18:18), how can we be sure that we are understanding it correctly? I am very fascinated with this question today and hope for your best answers (maybe even a quote from Chesterton? )

Not sure if anyone else has asked you this but…if we cannot know with certainty that the Church is interpreting the Scriptures correctly, then what good are the Scriptures?

 

[fhansen]

**
I believe, Catholics free to believe OSAS in a restricted way, but they are not free to believe OSAS in a general way.

Catholics free to believe OSAS in a restricted way**.

Catholics free to believe a group of people who are in a matter speech are OSAS, One

Saved, Always Saved, based on the *DE FIDE *Dogma of the RCC Predestination of

the elect and the Scriptures.

Their names stands written in the Book of Life, they are the children of God/elect, predestined to heaven.

They are protected with God’s special gift “The Gift of Final Perseverance” from

committing even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of their life.

They are recipients of many different spiritual gifts of God and they always stay in the

state of grace, so when ewer they die they always die in the state of grace. – No surprises,

everything goes on according to God’s plan of salvation.
The main difference is that most who adhere to the OSAS doctrine also believe themselves to be among those saved. Election has much less immediate relevance if such assurance/knowledge is inaccessible, as the Church teaches. *God *is omniscient, not man, and so His knowledge necessarily includes our eternal destinies, of course.

 

[LatinRight]

1. The main difference is that most who adhere to the OSAS doctrine also believe themselves to be among those saved.
2. Election has much less immediate relevance if such assurance/knowledge is inaccessible, as the Church teaches.
3. *God *is omniscient, not man, and so His knowledge necessarily includes our eternal destinies, of course.

**God bless Fhansen,

1.The OSAS doctrine is: The *DE FIDE *Dogma of the RCC Predestination of the elect. – Every Child of God/elect, Once Saved, Always Saved.

It is time for us Catholics to take our faith seriously and to stay in the Catholic Church!!!

Salvation is by faith. So, those adhere to the OSAS doctrine should believe themselves to be among those saved.

It is very simple. As salvation is by faith. If we don’t believe we are among God’s elect the OSAS group there is only one alternative, we must believe we are among the reprobates and we end up in hell.

There is no third alternative. According to RCC teaching, there is only two groups of people in the world.

The OSAS group and the group of the reprobates.

Every one of us belongs one of the two groups.

If we don’t have a faith that we believe we belong to the OSAS group that puts us into the group of the reprobates, reprobates has zero chance to ever enter heaven.

I don’t believe Fhansen you can deny the above statements.

You see Fhansen it is very simple. You know very well, you are too a member of one of the two groups. – I respect your privacy, so I don’t ask what do you believe which group from the two you belong to.

It would be foolish to claim I’m standing between to two.

I hope you adhere the DE FIDE Dogma Predestination of the elect. – I adhere it, it really sets us free and we can carry on to do good works, out of love for the glory of God.

1. I agree the Church teach it "assurance/knowledge is inaccessible, as the Church

teaches". But if we really looking we find good teachings as follows:

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we have faith in God, in His Word, Christ sacrifice on the cross for our salvation then we are children of God/elect, members of the OSAS group.

Better if we use to the idea, there are only two groups OSAS and reprobates.

We believe it or not, makes no difference, we are all members one of the two groups. – There is no third group or third alternative.

1. Of course we are not omniscient and we don’t need to be omniscient to have faith in God, His Word, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for OUR SALVATION and to know we HAVE BEEN SAVED BY FAITH and to know we are God’s children members of the group of OSAS.

It is as simple as that, if someone don’t have faith he is a child of God, that faithlessness (without fail) put him into the group of the reprobates.

We HAVE BEEN SAVED BY FAITH, we are members of the group OSAS by faith in God, His Word, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for our salvation.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[LatinRight]

The answer is a very simple one. Alex is a child of God/elect only if he has been given the gift of final perseverance by God, in which case he simply cannot commit an act prior to death that would end up excommunicating him eternally from God’s presence. If he could, then your assertion that Alex was a child of God/elect would be incorrect.

**God bless Fhansen,

I agree, Alex is a child of God/elect only if he has been given the gift of final perseverance

by God, in which case he simply cannot commit mortal sin and he is belongs to the group

OSAS and predestined to heaven.

Every child of God receives God’s gift of final perseverance.

Only the reprobates doesn’t. They are all end up in hell.

As I have stated in my previous post:

The OSAS doctrine is: The DE FIDE Dogma of the RCC Predestination of the elect. – Every Child of God/elect, Once Saved, Always Saved.

The meaning of the above doctrine:

Every Child of God/elect predestined to heaven, they are One Saved, Always Saved. – Please don’t read into anything more.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[LatinRight]

Not sure where to start even-there’s so much wrong here. Latin Right, you still seem to me to either be a “catholic” Calvinist or a Roman Catholic desperately struggling to reconcile RCC theology with your own theology, for one reason or another. The only thing we agreed on so far is that the elect cannot become “non-elect”; election is irrevocable. But justification and conversion in Catholic theology is both an event and a process. We aren’t certain of salvation, which we work out with God during our lives, until He declares us to be saved, or not saved, at the end of our days here on earth. So a child of God can indeed forfeit his adopted status. At any point in our lives only God knows-by His omniscience-who will persevere and who will not anyway. Compare your beliefs, where the sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession/Penance should have no place apparently, with the teaching of the Church:

**1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47

1486 The forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism is conferred by a particular sacrament called the sacrament of conversion, confession, penance, or reconciliation.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.**

I was addressing Scripture’s position on* assurance of salvation/OSAS.*

As for this, you seem to be placing your faith* in* your faith. The question, ‘What level of faith pleases God?’, makes little sense because our faith is simply in Him and His promises, not in a subjectively assessed analysis of our faith, itself, something which the Church refers to as “fiduciary faith”,* faith in faith*-as if all we have to do is believe, a non-Catholic perspective. So our salvation is not dependent on how strongly we believe we’re saved, but rather on how we live our lives based on the belief or trust placed in Him and His promises.

**God bless Fhansen,

I think Fhansen you went to side issues.

Forget the side issues because only causes confusion.

Salvation of an elect of God. – I speaking in GENERAL.

An elect IRREVOCABLY saved at baptism. – Once Saved, Always Saved.

At baptism he has received God’s gift of everlasting life.

At baptism he has also received God’s gift of Final Perseverance.

He will not commit even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of his life.

He doesn’t need “second plank of salvation” because he doesn’t commit mortal sin.

Of course need to ask forgiveness for venial sins and do the sacraments, etc.

From baptism until the end of his life he is doing good works, out of love for the glory of God.

Work includes every kind of Christian works also working on to be more holy and more just.

He will not go to judgment concerning heaven or hell, only his work will be judged described in 1 Cor.3:11-15.

Please don’t be confused an elect don’t commit mortal sin and don’t lose salvation.

When I speaking about faith, I always speaking faith in God.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[pnewton]

At baptism he has received God’s gift of everlasting life.

At baptism he has also received God’s gift of Final Perseverance.

He will not commit even one act of mortal sin from baptism until the end of his life.

I have two questions. Are you saying that once one is baptized, mortal sin is no longer an option, or are you defining “the elect” as a subset of those who have received the Sacrament of baptism.

Second, can you find anything in that has expressed this the same way?

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

1.The OSAS doctrine is: The *DE FIDE ***Dogma of the RCC Predestination of the elect. – Every Child of God/elect, Once Saved, Always Saved.

It is time for us Catholics to take our faith seriously and to stay in the Catholic Church!!!

Salvation is by faith. So, those adhere to the OSAS doctrine should believe themselves to be among those saved.

It is very simple. As salvation is by faith. If we don’t believe we are among God’s elect the OSAS group there is only one alternative, we must believe we are among the reprobates and we end up in hell.

There is no third alternative. According to RCC teaching, there is only two groups of people in the world.

The OSAS group and the group of the reprobates.

Every one of us belongs one of the two groups.

If we don’t have a faith that we believe we belong to the OSAS group that puts us into the group of the reprobates, reprobates has zero chance to ever enter heaven.

I don’t believe Fhansen you can deny the above statements.
I’d be happy to deny the incorrect ones.Our beliefs regarding our status vis a vis election and reprobation have exactly *nothing *directly to do with whether or not we’re saved, whether we’re among the elect or the reprobate, as Matt 7:22-24 as well as Matt 25:31-46 clearly point out. The problem with your very non-Roman Catholic theology is that it puts the cart before the horse. You don’t know with certainty what God, alone, knows. You can triumphantly point to all the DE FIDE RC dogma you want, but unless you’re going to appeal to them truthfully, they simply won’t support your claims. The Church is adamant that, as a matter of course, one cannot know with perfect certainty that they are numbered among the elect, just like we cannot know if we’re numbered among the reprobate, regardless of what we may happen to believe at any one point in time. How does a person know, for example, without the gift of foreknowledge, that they won’t fall away tomorrow, or a year from now, or ten years from now- whether due to some crisis or simply because they feel they can no longer believe? Or that they won’t commit some mortal sin, likewise turning away from God/love? And that they may or may not *still *persevere anyway in the end, perhaps returning a year or 25 years later, or on their deathbed?

If you’re not willing to listen to and heed the wisdom of the Church of God it only means that you need more time in seeking, study, prayer, etc. Either way you clearly misunderstand the role that faith plays in Christianity. Read the Parable of the Talents. Christianity is a journey, a walk,* beginning *with faith which leads to Baptism, the “sacrament of faith” whereupon one is cleansed, reborn, made new, justified, etc. From there we must continue to walk the talk, to uphold our Baptismal vows, and to grow in justice as we “invest” the “talents” given, cooperating with God in working out our salvation in whatever time and with whatever opportunities we have. Without that continuous challenge and obligation to strive, to play a part in obtaining our salvation even as it all issues forth from God to begin with, Christianity is rendered nothing more than a get-out-of-hell-free-card. No real reason or purpose to the whole drama of life post-Eden, with all of its goodness together with its pain, suffering, and death. As it is God is in the business of helping us come to hunger and thirst for righteousness, to hunger and thirst for Him, and to be partakers of that very righteousness in order to merit eternal life. Salvation is a process, of which He, alone, will be the judge.

 

[fhansen]

I’d be happy to deny the incorrect ones.Our beliefs regarding our status vis a vis election and reprobation have exactly *nothing *directly to do with whether or not we’re saved, whether we’re among the elect or the reprobate, as Matt 7:22-24 as well as Matt 25:31-46 clearly point out. The problem with your very non-Roman Catholic theology is that it puts the cart before the horse. You don’t know with certainty what God, alone, knows. You can triumphantly point to all the DE FIDE RC dogma you want, but unless you’re going to appeal to them truthfully, they simply won’t support your claims. The Church is adamant that, as a matter of course, one cannot know with perfect certainty that they are numbered among the elect, just like we cannot know if we’re numbered among the reprobate, regardless of what we may happen to believe at any one point in time. How does a person know, for example, without the gift of foreknowledge, that they won’t fall away tomorrow, or a year from now, or ten years from now- whether due to some crisis or simply because they feel they can no longer believe? Or that they won’t commit some mortal sin, likewise turning away from God/love? And that they may or may not *still *persevere anyway in the end, perhaps returning a year or 25 years later, or on their deathbed?

If you’re not willing to listen to and heed the wisdom of the Church of God it only means that you need more time in seeking, study, prayer, etc. Either way you clearly misunderstand the role that faith plays in Christianity. Read the Parable of the Talents. Christianity is a journey, a walk,* beginning *with faith which leads to Baptism, the “sacrament of faith” whereupon one is cleansed, reborn, made new, justified, etc. From there we must continue to walk the talk, to uphold our Baptismal vows, and to grow in justice as we “invest” the “talents” given, cooperating with God in working out our salvation in whatever time and with whatever opportunities we have. Without that continuous challenge and obligation to strive, to play a part in obtaining our salvation even as it all issues forth from God to begin with, Christianity is rendered nothing more than a get-out-of-hell-free-card…for those who believe that they adequately believe. No real reason or purpose to the whole drama of life post-Eden, with all of its goodness together with its pain, suffering, and death. As it is God is in the business of helping us come to hunger and thirst for righteousness, to hunger and thirst for Him, and to be partakers of that very righteousness in order to merit eternal life. Salvation is a process, of which He, alone, will be the judge.