Can we correctly interpret the Scriptures?

[fhansen]

**God bless Fhansen,

I think Fhansen you went to side issues.

Forget the side issues because only causes confusion.**
These issues may be inconveniently incompatible with your position-but they certainly aren’t side issues; they get to the very heart of the matter in fact.

 

[pnewton]

I am an acroymaniac Calvinist.
OHBKGSAHBKGS

Once having been known to be going to be saved, always having been known to be going to be saved.

 

[spina1953]

This business of once saved always saved seems to me to be false since how does anyone know with certainty that they are saved? To hold the belief that once saved always saved says in actuality that Christ has nothing to do with judging if a person is to be saved or not since the person who believes he/she once saved is always saved. Christ made the promise to save, but he did not promise once some one believed in Him would automatically be saved.

That is like saying I can sin all I want because once I’m saved I am always saved. Or I don’t have to do anything more because i’m already saved, is like the man who said to himself that he was going to rest from doing not knowing that God was going to take his very life that night. In a manor of speaking once saved always saved is, is like saying I’m perfect and can’t sin because I’m now saved. it does not make any sense at all for in the end Christ is the one who judges who is actually saved, not the person who believes he/she is once saved always saved.
I tend to think the only one's who are actually saved are the one's who are in heaven. if one s not in heaven with God then they have not been saved, but only promised to be saved if they have done and lived the way Christ taught. it is really presumption on the part of the person believing one saved always saved, when in reality they really don't know if in fact they have been saved. There is no way or proof that one is actually once saved always saved., only the promise to be saved if Christ at the time when one dies judges one to be saved.

 

[LatinRight]

These issues may be inconveniently incompatible with your position-but they certainly aren’t side issues; they get to the very heart of the matter in fact.

**God bless Fhansen,

Thank you for your posts. I will answer you other post # 59 probably tomorrow and please

believe me I will go to the very heart of the matter.

Those issues are not incompatible with my position.

I have only written a brief general outline of the salvation of the elect.

When I will answer your post # 59 I will go to the very heart of the theological matters.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[LatinRight]

I have two questions. Are you saying that once one is baptized, mortal sin is no longer an option, or are you defining “the elect” as a subset of those who have received the Sacrament of baptism.

Second, can you find anything in that has expressed this the same way?

**God bless Pnewton,

For the elect, after their baptism mortal sin is no longer an option.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

End quote Emphasize added.

If the elect could commit mortal sins many of them would die daily in the state of mortal

sin and God would lose His omniscience daily many times over.

I believe. You are Pnewton correct in your post # 61.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[LatinRight]

This business of once saved always saved seems to me to be false since how does anyone know with certainty that they are saved? To hold the belief that once saved always saved says in actuality that Christ has nothing to do with judging if a person is to be saved or not since the person who believes he/she once saved is always saved. Christ made the promise to save, but he did not promise once some one believed in Him would automatically be saved.

That is like saying I can sin all I want because once I’m saved I am always saved. Or I don’t have to do anything more because i’m already saved, is like the man who said to himself that he was going to rest from doing not knowing that God was going to take his very life that night. In a manor of speaking once saved always saved is, is like saying I’m perfect and can’t sin because I’m now saved. it does not make any sense at all for in the end Christ is the one who judges who is actually saved, not the person who believes he/she is once saved always saved.

I tend to think the only one's who are actually saved are the one's who are in heaven. if one s not in heaven with God then they have not been saved, but only promised to be saved if they have done and lived the way Christ taught. it is really presumption on the part of the person believing one saved always saved, when in reality they really don't know if in fact they have been saved. There is no way or proof that one is actually once saved always saved., only the promise to be saved if Christ at the time when one dies  judges one to be saved.

**God bless Spina,

The elect don’t have to know with absolute certainty that they are elect, but they can have some idea that they are elect.

For example if you read: John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God even commands us to test our standing.

Rom.8:16 states: “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of

God.” – We can have a good idea that we are elect/saved.

Another issue, if someone working for the reason to enter heaven, that work is wood hay

and straw, rejected by God at the judgment of the works of the elect.

An elect not judged by salvation or condemnation.

An elect cannot lose his/her salvation. – Cannot even commit mortal sin.

As follows you will see Spina how hard to do good works!!!

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we live our Christian life in uncertainty, fear and doubt we can NEVER be qualified to do

supernatural works because our work instead of actual grace energized by the spirit of

slavery, the fear of hell and OUR WORKS REJECTED BY GOD.

It is not so simple to do supernatural work/good work.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

What we MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!! – We do it for our own interest, not freely for the Glory of God.

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[Duane1966]

**God bless Pnewton,

For the elect, after their baptism mortal sin is no longer an option.

If the elect could commit mortal sins many of them would die daily in the state of mortal

sin and God would lose His omniscience daily many times over.

I believe. You are Pnewton correct in your post # 61.

God bless

LatinRight**

This is not what the Church teaches. In your statement from the Church, all she is saying is that the elect will die in a state of grace. Not that they cannot commit mortal sin after baptism, and then be reconciled at a later point to God. Dying in a state of grace is what final perseverance means.

In St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, we see where a baptized person does commit a mortal sin (sleeping with his step-mother), is excommunicated, but he is later reconciled to the Church.

And Jesus pleads with His followers to remain in Him. His very words show that you can be in a state of grace, and walk away.

 

[LatinRight]

I’d be happy to deny the incorrect ones.Our beliefs regarding our status vis a vis election and reprobation have exactly *nothing *directly to do with whether or not we’re saved, whether we’re among the elect or the reprobate, as Matt 7:22-24 as well as Matt 25:31-46 clearly point out. The problem with your very non-Roman Catholic theology is that it puts the cart before the horse. You don’t know with certainty what God, alone, knows. You can triumphantly point to all the DE FIDE RC dogma you want, but unless you’re going to appeal to them truthfully, they simply won’t support your claims. The Church is adamant that, as a matter of course, one cannot know with perfect certainty that they are numbered among the elect, just like we cannot know if we’re numbered among the reprobate, regardless of what we may happen to believe at any one point in time. How does a person know, for example, without the gift of foreknowledge, that they won’t fall away tomorrow, or a year from now, or ten years from now- whether due to some crisis or simply because they feel they can no longer believe? Or that they won’t commit some mortal sin, likewise turning away from God/love? And that they may or may not *still *persevere anyway in the end, perhaps returning a year or 25 years later, or on their deathbed?

If you’re not willing to listen to and heed the wisdom of the Church of God it only means that you need more time in seeking, study, prayer, etc. Either way you clearly misunderstand the role that faith plays in Christianity. Read the Parable of the Talents. Christianity is a journey, a walk,* beginning *with faith which leads to Baptism, the “sacrament of faith” whereupon one is cleansed, reborn, made new, justified, etc. From there we must continue to walk the talk, to uphold our Baptismal vows, and to grow in justice as we “invest” the “talents” given, cooperating with God in working out our salvation in whatever time and with whatever opportunities we have. Without that continuous challenge and obligation to strive, to play a part in obtaining our salvation even as it all issues forth from God to begin with, Christianity is rendered nothing more than a get-out-of-hell-free-card. No real reason or purpose to the whole drama of life post-Eden, with all of its goodness together with its pain, suffering, and death. As it is God is in the business of helping us come to hunger and thirst for righteousness, to hunger and thirst for Him, and to be partakers of that very righteousness in order to merit eternal life. Salvation is a process, of which He, alone, will be the judge.

**God bless Fhansen,

At this stage I have time only to answer one issue of your post and I will answer the other issues later.

Two sentences from your post Fhansen:**

Quote: 1. Without that continuous challenge and obligation to strive, to play a part in **

obtaining our salvation** even as it all issues forth from God to begin with,

Christianity is rendered nothing more than a get-out-of-hell-free-card.

1. As it is God is in the business of helping us come to hunger and thirst for

righteousness, to hunger and thirst for Him, and to be partakers of that very

righteousness in order to merit eternal life. End quote. Emphasize added.

**That is above neither Catholic teaching of salvation nor Catholic teaching of good works/supernatural works.

It is an explanation the way we can do useless works which are wood, hay and straw for our

salvation which is God’s free gift, merited for us By Christ on the cross, paid in full. – 1 Cor.3:11-15.

THE CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING please read my post # 65.

The following RCC teaching explains the way Catholics saved.

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

End quote. Emphasize mine.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts

as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in

Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is

NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[LatinRight]

This is not what the Church teaches. In your statement from the Church, all she is saying is that the elect will die in a state of grace. Not that they cannot commit mortal sin after baptism, and then be reconciled at a later point to God. Dying in a state of grace is what final perseverance means.

In St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, we see where a baptized person does commit a mortal sin (sleeping with his step-mother), is excommunicated, but he is later reconciled to the Church.

And Jesus pleads with His followers to remain in Him. His very words show that you can be in a state of grace, and walk away.

**God bless Duane,

What do think Duane if the elect could commit mortal sins, how many

elect would die daily in the state of mortal sin?

One example:

Alex is an elect.

He has committed a mortal sin in the morning.

He has decided will go to confession tomorrow.

Alex had a car accident around midday, died instantly in the state of mortal sin.

Alex went to hell and God lost His omniscience.

Duane if you read Rom.6:23; you will find out God’s gift is eternal life

and when you read John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. you also find out, the elect

has everlasting life.

If the elect could commit mortal sins they would have only periodical life and death.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[Duane1966]

**God bless Duane,

What do think Duane if the elect could commit mortal sins, how many

elect would die daily in the state of mortal sin?

One example:

Alex is an elect.

He has committed a mortal sin in the morning.

He has decided will go to confession tomorrow.

Alex had a car accident around midday, died instantly in the state of mortal sin.

Alex went to hell and God lost His omniscience.

Duane if you read Rom.6:23; you will find out God’s gift is eternal life

and when you read John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. you also find out, the elect

has everlasting life.

If the elect could commit mortal sins they would have only periodical life and death.

God bless

LatinRight**

So in Corinthians, when the Christian man committed a mortal-sin with his step mother, why does St. Paul allow him back into the Christian community after the man repents?

Why have the sacrament of confession, if repenting of the mortal sins cannot reconcile one with God?

By the way, you framed your Alex analogy wrong. If Alex is an elect, then he will not die with unconfessed mortal sins on his soul. The fact that you say he goes to hell, says nothing about God’s omniscience. It just proves that he was not elect.

 

[spina1953]

Thank you for your reply and God bless Latin Rite. No doubt we have over the centuries those who one might call elect but more often call them saintly since they seem to have God’s grace working through them.The terminology of being used (elect) implies that that if one is predestined for heaven then one can do no wrong (sin). While I believe all have been predestined for heaven many will reject God thereby will never be in heaven by their own choice which God will honor due to free will. Predestination really implies no choice that is one can not choose as it has been chosen for them.

Since man has free will, man can choose. That being said, it is also with the help of God since no man do on his own without God. Works does not get one into heaven, but good works comes from the prompting of God who wishes us to be the instrument whereby He is able to do His work through us… Did not jesus say: Matt.5;16 “In the same way, your light must shine before men so that they may see goodness in your acts and give praise to your heavenly Father.” Jesus cautions us also with :Matt.6;1 “Be on guard against preforming religious acts for people to see. Otherwise expect no reconpense from your heavenly Father.”

So Jesus is saying to us it seems to me that we do good works but of ourselves but as an instrument of God who does the work through us so when others see it they give praise to God and not to man. On the other hand we are not to do god works; religious works or acts to make others think we are somehow holy the see how good i am I do all these things because I’m better than you because God is blessing me.

St. Paul when he was preaching to Gentiles and those converted Gentiles concerning works, it was because Converted Pharicess were preaching and teaching that Converted gentile had to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses in order to be saved. Doing good works because God has prompted one and one who does good works for show that is if one does good works thinking one is going to be blessed and go to heaven as some requirement is missing the point.Just as those who think doing any good work is not needed. to be saved. Is not helping others who have less who are hungry, thristy, without clothes, etc. without looking for show or gain not doing God’s work that is being the instrument that God does His work and so the one doing good works is not expecting any praise for doing what God commands?

I think there is a real difference between doing good works as some means of getting into heaven and doing good works because we respond to God’s prompting to do good works. If man is desirius of wanting to do God’d will asking for His graces to do God’s will I am sure God will grant it. God never stops loving nor does he willingly reject one in sin even mortal sin as he is always prompting one to return to Him till that persons last breath. man is falliable and of a fallen nature so pron to sin. No man is free from sin nor the temtations of sin. Man can fall at any time even those who try to do God’s will with the graces God gives one.The closer one comes to God the more the evil one tries to turn one against God. One has also be careful not to think one is always free from sin because one thinks or believes one is predestined for heaven. We are not to presume we are going to heaven because we are somehow predestined. Nor if we should die in a state of mortal sin but have the intention and desire to go to confession that God will not forgive.When one does in a state of mortal sin and has not desire to confess it before God, of course hell is where one ends up. As I said God never gives up wanting to save and will even at one’s last breath who desires and asks sincerely for forgiveness from God I can not believe God who is all loving and merciful and compassionate will refuse to forgive one who asks.

 

[fhansen]

**That is above neither Catholic teaching of salvation nor Catholic teaching of good works/supernatural works.

It is an explanation the way we can do useless works which are wood, hay and straw for our

salvation which is God’s free gift, merited for us By Christ on the cross, paid in full. – 1 Cor.3:11-15.**

I can see this may take some time . To begin with, a misunderstanding of the nature and the role of faith came to full blossom during the Reformation, resulting in a distorted-and generally minimized-understanding of man’s responsibilities and obligations to God. First of all consider the following chapters from Trent session 6 along with some anathemas that shed much light on Catholic teachings on justification, and then from the catechism after that:

From Trent:

**CHAPTER VIII. In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

(Faith is the* foundation *of justification -not the essence of it. Grace precedes any and all of man’s justice in any case. Grace precedes anything we have for that matter. It’s all a gift of God, from our very existence to our personalities, our physical characteristics, our abilities, etc., along with any justice or righteousness we might possess. Christianity is, in a sense, simply the formal, conscious recognition of that fact, that all good things come from God. Man and angels, alone in creation, have the ability to deny God’s very existence, and reject the very justice they were made for-in favor of their own, so-called, justice or righteousness.)

**CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
**
(Man can be justified before God by his works, but *only *with the grace of God through Jesus Christ. “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:10 This necessity for communion with God is the basis of the New Covenant, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5)

**CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.**

From the Catechism:
**
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.**

LR, you really need to give up the notion that we can “correctly interpret the Scriptures”, to any kind of full and adequate degree, without the guidance of the Church.

 

[fhansen]

When Paul tells us that we’re saved by faith and not by works of the law, he’s battling legalism; he’s separating man’s ability to become justified on his own, by his own efforts, from becoming justified by union with God, a relationship which is established by faith. God, alone, is the source of man’s justice/righteousness, whereas man’s “righteousness” is as “filthy rags”. We must turn humbly to God, as children, in order to be made just. And then we must walk in that justice as God continues to draw us further into it, as we come to know Him better and as we become increasingly *willing *partners with Him in His work of salvation. But that relationship and the grace that it promises can always be rejected, turned away from again.

 

[spina1953]

Hi fhansen, I agree with your statement concerning what St. Paul was getting at. St. Paul was continually preaching that one was not saved by works only that is the rituals under the law of Moses. Works are done in partnership with God who prompts one to do good works with the grace he gives one to do works. Without God no one can do any good at all as Good originates with God.Matt.25:31-46 says it all in that one does good works as a part of God’s plan. But in order to do good works one becomes a partner with God so that God can do those good works through a person. A person cannot under his own will without the aid of God do any good work. Salvation s granted to those to whom God chooses and not by what man does of his ownself.

 

[LatinRight]

So in Corinthians, when the Christian man committed a mortal-sin with his step mother, why does St. Paul allow him back into the Christian community after the man repents?

Why have the sacrament of confession, if repenting of the mortal sins cannot reconcile one with God?

By the way, you framed your Alex analogy wrong. If Alex is an elect, then he will not die with unconfessed mortal sins on his soul. The fact that you say he goes to hell, says nothing about God’s omniscience. It just proves that he was not elect.

**God bless Duane,

From 1 John 2:19 we know, not everyone who are among the Christians are Christians.

Many reprobates are among the various Christian groups.

In 1Cor.5:1-13 Paul is speaking in general referring to various members of the group.

We don’t know all the fine details. We also cannot make up a doctrine on one Bible

passage which can be interpreted and understand different ways.

Duane if you want to prove elect can commit mortal sins, you need far more then 1 Cor.5:1-13.

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

Kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10) End quote.

You need to prove:

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae made a mistake because those elect who

has God’s Gift of Final Perseverance cannot abiding in good TO the end of life because

they committing mortal sins. – Obviously we cannot believe en elect between committing

a mortal sin and reconciliation abiding in good because he is in the state of mortal sin.

You need to prove:

Christ’s statement in John 5:24; Christians/elect has EVERLASTING LIFE. – You must

prove Christians/elect has only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH because they committing mortal sins.

You need to prove:

1 John 5:13 States; Christians/elect has EVERLASTING LIFE. – You must prove

Christians/elect has only PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH because they committing mortal sins.

I believe we all agree on; if the elect could commit mortal sins, they would only have periodical life and death.

The elect has EVERLASTING LIFE, condition to have it; being continually in the state of grace.

As Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote: “Abiding in good TO the end of life.”

God blass

LatinRight**

 

[fhansen]

You need to prove:

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae made a mistake because those elect who

has God’s Gift of Final Perseverance cannot abiding in good TO the end of life because

they committing mortal sins. – Obviously we cannot believe en elect between committing

a mortal sin and reconciliation abiding in good because he is in the state of mortal sin.

LR, error seems to be a bit habitual with you. First of all the Church doesn’t accept everything every RC theologian puts forth, not even Aquinas. Again, it’s the role of the Church to proclaim the truth accurately, whether when interpreting Scripture or accepting/rejecting truth claims of this author or that. But more importantly here, Aquinas and the Church agree. He actually taught that your position is heresy. From the Summa, Third part, ques 84, article 10:

**I answer that, As regards Penance, some have erred, saying that a man cannot obtain pardon of his sins through Penance a second time. Some of these, viz. the Novatians, went so far as to say that he who sins after the first Penance which is done in Baptism, cannot be restored again through Penance. There were also other heretics who, as Augustine relates in De Poenitentia [De vera et falsa Poenitentia, the authorship of which is unknown, said that, after Baptism, Penance is useful, not many times, but only once.

These errors seem to have arisen from a twofold source: first from not knowing the nature of true Penance. For since true Penance requires charity, without which sins are not taken away, they thought that charity once possessed could not be lost, and that, consequently, Penance, if true, could never be removed by sin, so that it should be necessary to repeat it. But this was refuted in the II-II:24:11, where it was shown that on account of free-will charity, once possessed, can be lost, and that, consequently, after true Penance, a man can sin mortally. Secondly, they erred in their estimation of the gravity of sin. For they deemed a sin committed by a man after he had received pardon, to be so grave that it could not be forgiven. In this they erred not only with regard to sin which, even after a sin has been forgiven, can be either more or less grievous than the first, which was forgiven, but much more did they err against the infinity of Divine mercy, which surpasses any number and magnitude of sins, according to Psalm 50:1-2: “Have mercy on me, O God, according to Thy great mercy: and according to the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my iniquity.” Wherefore the words of Cain were reprehensible, when he said (Genesis 4:13): “My iniquity is greater than that I may deserve pardon.” And so God’s mercy, through Penance, grants pardon to sinners without any end, wherefore it is written (2 Chronicles 33 [Prayer of Manasses], among the Apocrypha. St. Thomas is evidently quoting from memory, and omits the words in brackets.): “Thy merciful promise is unmeasurable and unsearchable . . . (and Thou repentest) for the evil brought upon man.” It is therefore evident that Penance can be repeated many times.**

 

[Duane1966]

LR, error seems to be a bit habitual with you. First of all the Church doesn’t accept everything every RC theologian puts forth, not even Aquinas. Again, it’s the role of the Church to proclaim the truth accurately, whether when interpreting Scripture or accepting/rejecting truth claims of this author or that. But more importantly here, Aquinas and the Church agree. He actually taught that your position is heresy. From the Summa, Third part, ques 84, article 10:

**I answer that, As regards Penance, some have erred, saying that a man cannot obtain pardon of his sins through Penance a second time. Some of these, viz. the Novatians, went so far as to say that he who sins after the first Penance which is done in Baptism, cannot be restored again through Penance. There were also other heretics who, as Augustine relates in De Poenitentia [De vera et falsa Poenitentia, the authorship of which is unknown, said that, after Baptism, Penance is useful, not many times, but only once.

These errors seem to have arisen from a twofold source: first from not knowing the nature of true Penance. For since true Penance requires charity, without which sins are not taken away, they thought that charity once possessed could not be lost, and that, consequently, Penance, if true, could never be removed by sin, so that it should be necessary to repeat it. But this was refuted in the II-II:24:11, where it was shown that on account of free-will charity, once possessed, can be lost, and that, consequently, after true Penance, a man can sin mortally. Secondly, they erred in their estimation of the gravity of sin. For they deemed a sin committed by a man after he had received pardon, to be so grave that it could not be forgiven. In this they erred not only with regard to sin which, even after a sin has been forgiven, can be either more or less grievous than the first, which was forgiven, but much more did they err against the infinity of Divine mercy, which surpasses any number and magnitude of sins, according to Psalm 50:1-2: “Have mercy on me, O God, according to Thy great mercy: and according to the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my iniquity.” Wherefore the words of Cain were reprehensible, when he said (Genesis 4:13): “My iniquity is greater than that I may deserve pardon.” And so God’s mercy, through Penance, grants pardon to sinners without any end, wherefore it is written (2 Chronicles 33 [Prayer of Manasses], among the Apocrypha. St. Thomas is evidently quoting from memory, and omits the words in brackets.): “Thy merciful promise is unmeasurable and unsearchable . . . (and Thou repentest) for the evil brought upon man.” It is therefore evident that Penance can be repeated many times.**

Augustine agrees with you.

Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance by Augustine (A.D. 428 OR 429)
newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

CHAP. I --OF THE NATURE OF THE PERSEVERANCE HERE DISCOURSED OF.. I HAVE now to consider the subject of perseverance ... I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. ... For if any one ... have righteousness ... if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was ... righteous, or he was ... believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. ... And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years' standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the stedfastness of his faith.

Augustine teaches that some of those regenerated and justified in Christ are among the elect, but some are not.

We, then, call men elected, and Christ’s disciples, and God’s children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called if they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called. But if they have not perseverance,–that is, if they continue not in that which they have begun to be,–they are not truly called what they are called and are not; for they are not this in the sight of Him to whom it is known what they are going to be,–that is to say, from good men, bad men. (“On Rebuke and Grace” (De Correptione et Gratis), Ch 22)

... But those who do not belong to this number of the predestinated ... [some] receive the grace of God, but they are only for a season, and do not persevere; they forsake and are forsaken. For by their free will, as they have not received the gift of perseverance, they are sent away by the righteous and hidden judgment of God (ibid, Ch. 42)

I once read where Augustine said a person who died unnaturally, and is in heaven, that God knows if that person would have fallen away for ever at a later point in time, if they had lived longer, but what would have happened if they had lived is not held against them. In the reverse of the situation, if you had repented if you had lived longer is not counted in your favor.

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless Fhansen,

There is a 500 years debate between Catholics and Protestants the way God saves His elect.

THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND

When a Protestant speaks about salvation always speaks Legal salvation/100 % Legal

Right of the elect to enter heaven (initial justification/salvation).

LEGAL SALVATION / 100 % IRREVOCABLE LEGAL RIGHT OF THE ELECT TO ENTER HEAVEN.

Legal salvation is by FAITH ALONE.

When a Catholic speaks about salvation always speaks Practical salvation.

Working on to be more just and more holy, plus to do other works as well.

Practical salvation is by FAITH + OUR WOKS BY CO-OPERATION WITH THE GRACE OF GOD.

THE WAY AS FOLLOWS – God saves us in three stages.

1. FIRST STAGE OF OUR SALVATION (Initial justification/salvation.)

As God’s children/His elect in this first stage of our salvation at our baptism we have

received 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven as God’s free gift.

Which is God’s gift of eternal life. – Rom.6:23.

Our 100 % Legal Right/Eligibility to go to heaven is irrevocable.

Christ merited for us paid in full on the cross.

THIS MEANS

We need to understand:

It is a big difference between our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Salvation (at the first stage of

our salvation/initial justification), and our practical salvation (at the second stage of our salvation). – The two are not the same.

a. LEGALLY SAVED / LEGAL SALVATION / INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

At our baptism as elect we have been Irrevocably, and Legally 100 % Saved.

God justified us and made us sons of God.

Our Legal and Irrevocable Salvation is COMPLETED.

Until now and from this point on we can contribute nothing to our Legal Salvation.

It is God’s free gift, Christ merited for us paid in full on the cross. Period.

End of the first stage of our salvation.

The first stage of our salvation was fully the work of God we didn’t and couldn’t even co-

operate in it, it was an instant event at our baptism.

THE SECOND STAGE OF OUR SALVATION

b. THIS IS OUR PRACTICAL SALVATION

This second stage of our salvation is done by Faith + Works.

In the second stage of our salvation (from baptism until we die) we have a chance to put

as much supernatural work/merit under our belts as we can.

For example:

Phil.2:12-15; We work out our salvation, …

Which is in reality, we working out the benefits of our salvation.

In this stage of our salvation we work as ambassadors of Christ.

We do every kind of Christian works includes to work on to increase our holiness and justice day by day.

For our good works/supernatural merit God gives us rewards in heaven.

It cannot be the reward of heaven because we have received God’s gift of everlasting life in heaven at our baptism.

We have heaven already by Christ merit on the cross. – It was God’s free gift.

Continue**

 

[LatinRight]

**THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE GREATEST CONFUSION COMES IN BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS

With our works (in our second stage of our salvation), we can increase our holiness and

justice, but this ongoing work DOES NOT increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal

Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.

If a Christian doesn’t understand the above theological fact, doesn’t understand salvation.

For the simple reason, which is:

At our baptism (at the first stage of our salvation) God has already given to us as His free

gift: Our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.

For the above reason we cannot increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to

enter to heaven and we don’t need to increase it because we have it all since our baptism.

We don’t need to work for something and we cannot work for something what we already have.

Some theologically uneducated Christian believes, when we continually increase our

justification and sanctification, in the same way we continually increase our Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven.

This is not the case at all, because at our baptism we have received as God’s free gift our

100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven. – This 100 % Right CAN NOT be increased.

NOW WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS OF THE RCC ON OUR

LEGAL SALVATION (First stage of our salvation / initial justification.)

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

End quote. Emphasize mine.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts

as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in

Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is

NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it. End quote.

The Trent also agrees our FIRST STAGE OF SALVATION (INITIAL JUSTIFICATION /

SALVATION) is by faith alone because we contribute nothing to it.

When the Trent speaks about salvation, most of the time speaks about our PRACTICAL

SALVATION (the second stage of our salvation) which is FAITH + WORKS.

God rewards the above our works in heaven if our works are up to the standard of supernatural works.

This second stage of our salvation gives as the possibility that we could put under our

belts as much supernatural merit as possible.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

Continue**

 

[LatinRight]

**If we live our Christian life in uncertainty, fear and doubt we can NEVER be qualified to do

supernatural works because our work instead of actual grace energized by the spirit of

slavery, the fear of hell and OUR WORKS REJECTED BY GOD.

I tell you Fhansen, the way I do supernatural work in the light of the above teachings:

1. I always keep in mind Eph.2:10.
2. I believe Rom.4:5-6; Eph.2:8-9; Rom.3:24; Rom.5:18; Rom.11:6; that I don’t have to

work for my salvation even an iota, my salvation is God’s free gift. – 100 % gift and I can contribute nothing to it.

For my work to increase my justification and sanctification God gives me reward in heaven if my work is up to the standard of supernatural merit.

But if I do my work to get or to keep my salvation I do my work for my own interest and that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God.

1. I believe, according to Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:12-15 even if I do nothing or all my work

rejected by God I still enter into heaven, this knowledge SET ME FREE to freely decide to

work or not to work without the fear of hell. – this is a condition to do supernatural merit.

There are other conditions as well. – It is not so simple to do supernatural merit. The standard is very high.

1. I work as much as I possibly can, FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or

INTERNAL NECESSITY not BECAUSE IT WILL HELP ME SOMEHOW, but because I

want to do it out of SHEER for the Glory of God and for the love of others.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. – The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

THE THIRD STAGE OF OUR SALVATION

Even of those Christians who died 2,000 years ago their salvation not yet completed.

Our salvation will be completed and we will be immortal at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; Rev.20:4-6.

Then fulfill Dan.7:13-14, 18, 22, 27.

The above Bible verses describe the future tasks of the Bride of Christ.

If you like to know your future assignment from Christ, please read it.

Every member of the Bride of Christ is a saint of God. – 1 Pet.2:9; etc.

God bless

LatinRight**