Can we drop "alone" from faith and grace?

[Tomster]

You know, this seems like it might be a simple matter of definitions (re: hope, faith). I must confess that I am unfamiliar with Spes Salvi, and I look forward to reading it (it’s rather long…). I have a gut feeling that “hope” as you understand it, Tomster, might fall within the understanding we Lutherans have of faith… I imagine breakthroughs like the JDDJ couldn’t otherwise happen. But, again, I’ll need to read it to confirm - I am unfamiliar with the term as it is used in the document.

Well, before you read the Encyclical, read the part in the Bible where it says " Hope saves".

Hope is absolutely essential in the justification process.

 

[MaryT777]

Haha! Some certainly seem to think so: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

The distinction between our views on justification, if it still exists, is certainly quite small.

Then why did the LCMS not sign the JDDJ? Wow that’s probably another thread.
I’ll start one.

 

[JonNC]

=Judas Thaddeus;11046873]None of those other people discounted works though as Luther did. None of them would have altered Scripture as Luther did.

I really need an example from you where Luther discounted works. If you’re going to say this you need some evidence. I will simply ignore the false statement about altering scripture for the sake of the topic of the thread, but here are a couple of quotes:

. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Does any of this sound like “discounting works”?

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, **no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” **
No real faith where the fruits … do not grow?

None of them addressed the Epistle of James as the “straw-epistle,” as Luther did. The True Scriptures does not contradict itself, but Luther’s did.

Do you know the full quote, or just the partial you’ve given? Do you know the context? Are you aware that Luther praised the book? Are you aware that even in the early Church, the Epistle of James was counted as disputed, as far back as Eusebius?
Luther never said James was a book of straw. He said it was a book of straw when compared to others. It was a comparative.

. Yes, Faith is what saves you, not works, but Faith without works is dead, none of those other people would deny that, but Luther would.

At the end of the day, Luther was wrong, and just because we catch Origin, Basil, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Bernard, Aquinas, Augustine, etc. saying “Faith Alone” does not make him correct.
The bolded is very lutheran of you to say. Based on the quotes I provided, yes he would.

Jon

 

[Tomster]

Haha! Some certainly seem to think so: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

The distinction between our views on justification, if it still exists, is certainly quite small.

Please interpret # 12 from the document if you please.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Luther never removed any books from the Bible (in fact, Luther’s translation included all the books found in the Roman Catholic bible AND the Prayer of Manasseh, which is not included in modern Roman Catholic bibles).

Oh yes he did remove books, I looked on Bible Gateway and looked over Luther’s
1545 Canon and though translating the names would be helpful, the very number
of books says it all:

1. 
   *]1 Mose
   *] 2 Mose
   *] 3 Mose
   *] 4 Mose
   *] 5 Mose
   *] Josua
   *] Richter
   *] Rut
   *] 1 Samuel
   *] 2 Samuel
   *] 1 Koenige
   *] 2 Koenige
   *] 1 Chronik
   *] 2 Chronik
   *] Esra
   *] Nehemia
   *] Ester
   *] Hiob
   *] Psalm
   *] Sprueche
   *] Prediger
   *] Hohelied
   *] Jesaja
   *] Jeremia
   *] Klagelieder
   *] Hesekiel
   *] Daniel
   *] Hosea
   *] Joel
   *] Amos
   *] Obadja
   *] Jona
   *] Mica
   *] Nahum
   *] Habakuk
   *] Zephanja
   *] Haggai
   *] Sacharja
   *] Maleachi
   *] Matthaeus
   *] Markus
   *] Lukas
   *] Johannes
   *] Apostelgeschichte
   *] Roemer
   *] 1 Korinther
   *] 2 Korinther
   *] Galater
   *] Epheser
   *] Philipper
   *] Kolosser
   *] 1 Thessalonicher
   *] 2 Thessalonicher
   *] 1 Timotheus
   *] 2 Timotheus
   *] Titus
   *] Philemon
   *] Hebraeer
   *] Jakobus
   *] 1 Petrus
   *] 2 Petrus
   *] 1 Johannes
   *] 2 Johannes
   *] 3 Johannes
   *] Judas
   *] Offenbarung
   
   Protestant Bible has 66 books while the Catholic Bible steadfastly maintains
   the 73 books. The other 7 books Luther rejected, and he even insisted, but
   was unable to do so, that other books such as Revelations be removed.

 

[ffg]

Sorry, it wasn’t my intention to swerve off topic. I implied your were discussing this in light of the thread topic. Maybe you could clarify for me…

Jon

Of course. Sorry. I’ll try and be real clear.

If ‘faith alone’ is an accurate, necessary term, would you not expect it or a verse that implies it to be mentioned by Jesus when he illustrates for us a straight forward parable regarding entry to His kingdom?

Thus, where do you see in the parable that faith alone is necessary (or only necessary) for entry?

I hope that is clear.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Your sig

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

Yes we are saved by Grace…and yes through faith. It is not of my own doing. Some days I would like to skip mass and watch the pre race show …I thank God every day for the gift, Christ, and I know nothing I can ever do will compare.

But what I do not find in that verse is where it says that by faith alone I am saved. James actually tells me the opposite. Whom am I to believe? Christ tells me to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and needy, forgive those who sin against me, etc…etc…etc. Those are not things to boast about yet simply things Christ commanded me to do. I am to love God with my whole heart and love each and every one of you. I do not boast that I love you more than you love me. My wife believes she loves me more.

What Ephesians is stating is that it is not a race to see who can produce the better “work” for God or do the most. Blessed Mother Theresa stated it wonderful…“Do small things with great love.”

 

[Tomster]

Then why did the LCMS not sign the JDDJ? Wow that’s probably another thread.
I’ll start one.

Start another thread if you like Mary. The answer to your above question will eventually boil down to lack of authority and the Lutheran dogma of private judgment.

 

[Tomster]

Yes we are saved by Grace…and yes through faith. It is not of my own doing. Some days I would like to skip mass and watch the pre race show …I thank God every day for the gift, Christ, and I know nothing I can ever do will compare.

But what I do not find in that verse is where it says that by faith alone I am saved. James actually tells me the opposite. Whom am I to believe? Christ tells me to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and needy, forgive those who sin against me, etc…etc…etc. Those are not things to boast about yet simply things Christ commanded me to do. I am to love God with my whole heart and love each and every one of you. I do not boast that I love you more than you love me. My wife believes she loves me more.

What Ephesians is stating is that it is not a race to see who can produce the better “work” for God or do the most. Blessed Mother Theresa stated it wonderful…“Do small things with great love.”

Bringing up the Book of James to the continuing Catholic Church (Lutherans) would be problematic for them. It was for Dr. Martin.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Bringing up the Book of James to the continuing Catholic Church (Lutherans) would be problematic for them. It was for Dr. Martin.

Hey I just went over 2000 post…I can do whatever I want

 

[MaryT777]

Start another thread if you like Mary. The answer to your above question will eventually boil down to lack of authority and the Lutheran dogma of private judgment.

I did start another thread towards a better understanding…
Mary.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I really need an example from you where Luther discounted works. If you’re going to say this you need some evidence. I will simply ignore the false statement about altering scripture for the sake of the topic of the thread, but here are a couple of quotes:…
Does any of this sound like “discounting works”?
No real faith where the fruits … do not grow?
Do you know the full quote, or just the partial you’ve given? Do you know the context? Are you aware that Luther praised the book? Are you aware that even in the early Church, the Epistle of James was counted as disputed, as far back as Eusebius?
Luther never said James was a book of straw. He said it was a book of straw when compared to others. It was a comparative.
The bolded is very lutheran of you to say. Based on the quotes I provided, yes he would.
Jon

All of what you say does sound intriguing, thank you very much for providing this
information. Doesn’t justify Luther’s addition though, putting words in Paul’s mouth.

 

[Tomster]

Oh yes he did remove books, I looked on Bible Gateway and looked over Luther’s
1545 Canon and though translating the names would be helpful, the very number
of books says it all:

1. 
   *]1 Mose
   *] 2 Mose
   *] 3 Mose
   *] 4 Mose
   *] 5 Mose
   *] Josua
   *] Richter
   *] Rut
   *] 1 Samuel
   *] 2 Samuel
   *] 1 Koenige
   *] 2 Koenige
   *] 1 Chronik
   *] 2 Chronik
   *] Esra
   *] Nehemia
   *] Ester
   *] Hiob
   *] Psalm
   *] Sprueche
   *] Prediger
   *] Hohelied
   *] Jesaja
   *] Jeremia
   *] Klagelieder
   *] Hesekiel
   *] Daniel
   *] Hosea
   *] Joel
   *] Amos
   *] Obadja
   *] Jona
   *] Mica
   *] Nahum
   *] Habakuk
   *] Zephanja
   *] Haggai
   *] Sacharja
   *] Maleachi
   *] Matthaeus
   *] Markus
   *] Lukas
   *] Johannes
   *] Apostelgeschichte
   *] Roemer
   *] 1 Korinther
   *] 2 Korinther
   *] Galater
   *] Epheser
   *] Philipper
   *] Kolosser
   *] 1 Thessalonicher
   *] 2 Thessalonicher
   *] 1 Timotheus
   *] 2 Timotheus
   *] Titus
   *] Philemon
   *] Hebraeer
   *] Jakobus
   *] 1 Petrus
   *] 2 Petrus
   *] 1 Johannes
   *] 2 Johannes
   *] 3 Johannes
   *] Judas
   *] Offenbarung
   
   Protestant Bible has 66 books while the Catholic Bible steadfastly maintains
   the 73 books. The other 7 books Luther rejected, and he even insisted, but
   was unable to do so, that other books such as Revelations be removed.

1. 
   Fancy that! I guess Dr. Martin viewed himself as a man of infallible authority.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

To my protestant brothers and sisters…

If I say that I am save by Grace through Faith - am I saying anything different than if I say Grace alone through Faith alone???

What is the significance of that term…Alone???

It strikes me as repetitive and unnecessary and more of a barrier than a help to understanding one another. I would be happy, and I think it would be constructive to conversation, if this unnecessary term were dropped.

And to my Catholic brothers and sisters…Let us allow the protestants to speak for themselves. Of course if you are a convert and wish to share your insights…or you wish to relate what a protestant friend has shared with you on the matter - that’s fine

Peace
James

I think a good analysis can also be:

Is saying “alone” with faith and grace contrary to Scriptures? Faith alone is only found in the negative (James 2) and Grace alone is never found.

Also, what is the driving force for saying alone? Why the need to separate and divide things that necessarily work together? This was my biggest obstacle during my Protestant years. What is the motive for it?

 

[Tomster]

Hey I just went over 2000 post…I can do whatever I want

You da man!

 

[JonNC]

Agreed. I’ve yet to read anything from those in the continuing Catholic Church (Lutherans, they don’t like the word Protestant) regarding how “hope” fits into their scheme of justification.

weedon.blogspot.com/search?q=Hope

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hey I just went over 2000 post…I can do whatever I want

Watch our for the:

http://www.rotaractorwiki.org/images/4/48/Flaming-ban-hammer.jpg

 

[JonNC]

All of what you say does sound intriguing, thank you very much for providing this
information. Doesn’t justify Luther’s addition though, putting words in Paul’s mouth.

You’re welcome.

Regarding Romans 3, perhaps a thread on that topic. ,

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Yes we are saved by Grace…and yes through faith. It is not of my own doing. Some days I would like to skip mass and watch the pre race show …I thank God every day for the gift, Christ, and I know nothing I can ever do will compare.

But what I do not find in that verse is where it says that by faith alone I am saved. James actually tells me the opposite. Whom am I to believe? Christ tells me to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and needy, forgive those who sin against me, etc…etc…etc. Those are not things to boast about yet simply things Christ commanded me to do. I am to love God with my whole heart and love each and every one of you. I do not boast that I love you more than you love me. My wife believes she loves me more.

What Ephesians is stating is that it is not a race to see who can produce the better “work” for God or do the most. Blessed Mother Theresa stated it wonderful…“Do small things with great love.”

Well said, Dustin; I concur.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think a good analysis can also be:

Is saying “alone” with faith and grace contrary to Scriptures? Faith alone is only found in the negative (James 2) and Grace alone is never found.

Also, what is the driving force for saying alone? Why the need to separate and divide things that necessarily work together? This was my biggest obstacle during my Protestant years. What is the motive for it?

Maybe the word “alone” differs from denominations. When I was Southern Baptist, it even differed from congregation to congregation. Some believed that simply faith in Christ saved you (OSAS) and others believed you could hurt your faith.