Can we drop "alone" from faith and grace?

[Isaiah45_9]

The thing about translation is that it is a continual process. Languages change, word usage changes etc…So things that were clear in centuries past may not be clear today.
The best that we can do is to, through apostolic succession, Spirit guidance, and training…make sure that each generation contains scholars on ancient languages as well as various translations and historical context, so that future translations will continue to be "more clear’…

Peace
James

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I did a little digging this morning…I’m no linguist or even student of the ancient languages…but I found the following in Strong’s Concordance…

The Greek term Translated most often as “Faith” in the writings of both Paul and James is
“Pistis”. A quick look at the link provided will give the definition of the term…
Nowhere in this definition is there a requirement for action. The nearest might be where it mentions, “…holy fervour…” yet this could mean many things - not all of which will assure salvation (I’m thinking of those who cry “lord lord”).
So - based on this, I have to wonder how the modern “Faith alone” adherent can hold that works are a natural product of faith since such is not included in the definition.

The term works used by Paul and James in the NT is
Ergon
Like Pistis above, that does not require action…Ergon does not require a firm belief in a given thing. I dare say that many people today are employed in jobs in which they have no great or firm belief.

So why do I bring these things up?

It is with this idea. That in trying to understand why the Catholic Church says “faith and works” it is good to understand what ancients understood the terms to mean. Thus - faith and works is actually quite clear and demonstrates the necessary interplay between firm belief and conviction - and acting on that conviction.

Saying “faith alone” - and trying to role works into the definition of faith…just does not fit with the meanings…

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

Thank you for this! I was about to embark in the same assignment.

 

[MaryT777]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb4x2iGPex1qe06muo1_500.jpg

Leave the beer out of it lol

Yeah I am with you.

Planning a trip to visit Dustin soon! ")

 

[fhansen]

There’s another, separate, issue to be dealt with here IMO. To some Protestants we’re saved by our faith, alone, as if faith is the only necessary response to the grace which precedes it. In Catholicism faith is only the beginning step; we’re saved through faith, which then must lead to more than mere faith, but this faith by itself won’t ensure that this happens, or continues to happen. There’s no such thing as a “saving faith”, which either requires no other response on our part or that will, of necessity, lead to other virtues and actions on our part.

Faith, on our part, re-establishes relationship between faithless fallen man and God so that His indwelling Spirit may begin a work of justification/salvation in us. So while faith is essential, it’s not the only essential after grace, just the first one-it’s possible to separate it from other necessary responses.

Sorry, I only read the OP. It appears this has been covered pretty well!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Probably a little late to ask, BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the *Sola Fide *people?
When one of them says “it is by faith that you’re saved, not by works,” what is going
on in their heads, like how do they define Faith. It always seems like “Faith Alone” is
equated to “Belief Alone”, which sounds more rather like empty faith, this Faith Alone
thing.
Can anyone tell me if I’m incorrect about that?

“Faith Alone” = “Belief Alone”

 

[JRKH]

Probably a little late to ask, BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the *Sola Fide *people?
When one of them says “it is by faith that you’re saved, not by works,” what is going
on in their heads, like how do they define Faith. It always seems like “Faith Alone” is
equated to “Belief Alone”, which sounds more rather like empty faith, this Faith Alone
thing.
Can anyone tell me if I’m incorrect about that?

“Faith Alone” = “Belief Alone”

You may get some answers here…but might I suggest that you start a new thread in order to possibly get a wider (name removed by moderator)ut?

Peace
James

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

You may get some answers here…but might I suggest that you start a new thread in order to possibly get a wider (name removed by moderator)ut?
Peace
James

um, Nah.
The definition of Faith is kinda important I feel to the
“Can we drop ‘alone’ from faith and grace?” topic.

 

[JonNC]

Probably a little late to ask, BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the *Sola Fide *people?
When one of them says “it is by faith that you’re saved, not by works,” what is going
on in their heads, like how do they define Faith. It always seems like “Faith Alone” is
equated to “Belief Alone”, which sounds more rather like empty faith, this Faith Alone
thing.
Can anyone tell me if I’m incorrect about that?

“Faith Alone” = “Belief Alone”

In short, from a Lutheran perspective, a Galatians 5:6 faith. A faith that works through love.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

um, Nah.
The definition of Faith is kinda important I feel to the
“Can we drop ‘alone’ from faith and grace?” topic.

Usually, we defer to the OP to make that determination.

Jon

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

In short, from a Lutheran perspective, a Galatians 5:6 faith. A faith that works through love.
Jon

Okay so, “The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love,” that
is, “faith expressing itself through love,” I see, “EXPRESSING itself through love.”

Someone posted a link here about Pope Benedict’s explanation of Grace, Faith,
& Works, asking how Works can be separated from Love, making the point that
it can’t. I also heard “faith that works,” which sounds like works are necessary.

The Bible does explain “by faith, not by works” are we saved, but I personal-
ly feel like the phrase “Sola Fide” is placing an unnecessary emphasis on
“not by works,” so at this point I think the ultimate answer to this thread is
YES, we can drop “alone” from faith and grace?

Galatians 5:6 is a very good verse, thanks for sharing.

 

[JonNC]

Okay so, “The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love,” that
is, “faith expressing itself through love,” I see, “EXPRESSING itself through love.”

Someone posted a link here about Pope Benedict’s explanation of Grace, Faith,
& Works, asking how Works can be separated from Love, making the point that
it can’t. I also heard “faith that works,” which sounds like works are necessary.

The Bible does explain “by faith, not by works” are we saved, but I personal-
ly feel like the phrase “Sola Fide” is placing an unnecessary emphasis on
“not by works,” so at this point I think the ultimate answer to this thread is
YES, we can drop “alone” from faith and grace?

Galatians 5:6 is a very good verse, thanks for sharing.

You’re welcome. I frankly think this was James’ intent, as well.

What justifies? Faith.
What kind of faith? A faith that works through love.

Jon

 

[concretecamper]

Okay so, “The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love,” that
is, “faith expressing itself through love,” I see, “EXPRESSING itself through love.”

Someone posted a link here about Pope Benedict’s explanation of Grace, Faith,
& Works, asking how Works can be separated from Love, making the point that
it can’t. I also heard “faith that works,” which sounds like works are necessary.

The Bible does explain “by faith, not by works” are we saved, but I personal-
ly feel like the phrase “Sola Fide” is placing an unnecessary emphasis on
“not by works,” so at this point I think the ultimate answer to this thread is
YES, we can drop “alone” from faith and grace?

Galatians 5:6 is a very good verse, thanks for sharing.

the works referenced in the bible passage you mentioned refers to works of the law…Mosaic Law.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

the works referenced in the bible passage you mentioned refers to works of the law…Mosaic Law.

Didn’t know that, thanks, but still, I hear Christian/Mormon dialogue, and have a strong feeling that there is something missing on the Christian side, like lifting
a box you expect to be full and heavy but is surprising light, or wait…that seems to go back to the “my yoke is easy and my burden is light” doesn’t it? (Funny,
that seriously just came to me as I was typing…HI JESUS! )

 

[JRKH]

um, Nah.
The definition of Faith is kinda important I feel to the
“Can we drop ‘alone’ from faith and grace?” topic.

Fair enough…but since the only non-Catholics posting on this thread seem to be Lutherans - you’ll likely not get much of a “range” of ideas…

Just sayin…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Probably a little late to ask, BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the *Sola Fide *people?
When one of them says “it is by faith that you’re saved, not by works,” what is going
on in their heads, like how do they define Faith. It always seems like “Faith Alone” is
equated to “Belief Alone”, which sounds more rather like empty faith, this Faith Alone
thing.
Can anyone tell me if I’m incorrect about that?

“Faith Alone” = “Belief Alone”

In short, from a Lutheran perspective, a Galatians 5:6 faith. A faith that works through love.

Jon

Sorry - but I don’t think that this qualifies as defining faith…
It’s not really possible to define a term by using that same term?

The question is how does the “faith alone” adherent define faith…
“faith that works through love” does not define, as Judas asks above…
BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the Sola Fidepeople?

Peace
James

 

[ffg]

Lost in the noise, ah well. Now you are getting to definition.

This is why I said earlier that Jon and I seemed to have varying definitions of faith.

From what I gathered from Jon’s response to me earlier -Faith is a gift, something received by humans who believe and in turn humans should obey teachings in order to not lose that gift (create a dead faith).

I see the above closer to a definition of the word ‘religion’ (try swapping out Faith above in line three to Religion, see if it makes sense).

I see faith as it’s basic definition. A word to sum up that which is not seen, but believed.

Essentially, I see it like this - Did the apostles need faith know Jesus was in front of them talking? Nope.

Did they need Faith to trust what he taught was important to be followed? Before He started miracles, absolutely!

After miracles? Not so much, he proved who he was.

From the point that He proved who He was (is) it takes reason to walk with faith to reach truth.

Truth - a known, something that by definition can’t take faith alone to know.

 

[JonNC]

Sorry - but I don’t think that this qualifies as defining faith…
It’s not really possible to define a term by using that same term?

The question is how does the “faith alone” adherent define faith…
“faith that works through love” does not define, as Judas asks above…
BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the Sola Fidepeople?

Peace
James

Sorry James and Judas,
You are right, James, I answered the wrong question.

Luther answers the question about what faith is in this way:

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.

Amen.

Jon

 

[josephback]

Probably a little late to ask, BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the *Sola Fide *people?
When one of them says “it is by faith that you’re saved, not by works,” what is going
on in their heads, like how do they define Faith. It always seems like “Faith Alone” is
equated to “Belief Alone”, which sounds more rather like empty faith, this Faith Alone
thing.
Can anyone tell me if I’m incorrect about that?

“Faith Alone” = “Belief Alone”

As a convert, I grew up hearing “faith alone”, but absorbed a more or less Catholic take on things from the Bible. My connection to “faith alone” was one of identity and heritage rather than a true conviction. It probably depends on the person and their personal understanding. We live in such an individualized religious environment.

 

[benjohnson]

Probably a little late to ask, BUT WHAT IS FAITH to the *Sola Fide *people?

I’ve heard that there’s differences between how Lutherans and Catholic understand faith - as I understand it, Faith i a deep profound joy in the heart and mind that overcomes doubt, fear, and incredulity. Faith has become part of me and I would say that now it is as inseparable as the head is from the body.

 

[rcwitness]

Actually, for this Lutheran, I found pope Benedict’s words moving, and indicative of the growing understanding between Lutherans and Catholics.

I’m not sure any Lutheran here said that works are necessary for salvation… We say they are necessary for the regenerate, because they are the command of Christ. We also say that repeated and unrepented sin leads to loss of saving faith. Failure to obey His commands is sin.

Jon

Hey Jon,
Thanks. I’m glad you found his definitions comforting. I’m beginning to understand where the differences lie. Catholic doctrines on initial justification are the exact same as yours. How we relate the works in the saved Christian to our eternal salvation differs…though more slightly than I think you know (IMO).

I feel St James expresses that good works in the freely justified Christian “complete” faith that saves. That implies a neccessary co-operation to justify us. So wheather we say we are justified by our works in Christ or our faith in Christ…it doesn’t matter. If they are both done in God’s grace, they are not opposed to each other.

James 2:21
"Was not Abraham Justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the alter?

If faith is not complete without works, that means something neccessary is lacking to be a saving faith. Now, the initial justification of anyone is because of no works! That is taught by the Catholic Church. The three Sacraments of initiation are these: Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist. These offer and seal our justification/salvation which is from nothing we have done to deserve them (though I add, not sure if Church, that co-operation can exist along side receiving these). The point is, is that they are our calling from God through His Church to accept God’s free gift of forgiveness of sins and grace with His Spirit. But they are also a gift for the journey. From these, we are sent out to do what we are commanded. We are tested through various trials. For these sacraments to complete God’s work in us, we must co-operate with Him. For example, for Holy Communion to be good to our soul, we must share with others in the body of the Lord. Otherwise, we are actually eating condemnation and defiling the Lord.
You see, when we are baptized, we are saved without works or because of works. But we are saved into eternity, so what we do affects our past present and future life in Christ…because He is in eternity. If I sin today, it defiles my baptism 10yrs ago! But if I repent today, it honors my baptism in the same way. So, from our baptism moment to our death is what determines our final Justification. This is not to be mistaken with God writing our names in the book and erasing it over and over again He sees our whole self outside of time.
So I dont feel like our difference is about faith and what faith we need to be saved, but how closely our works are related to our faith. One does not exist without the other. And furthermore, what are the works that save? They spring from the core of our hearts that have united with God through His son. They have overcome the spirits and elements of this life that attempt to prevent us from doing our Father’s will.

In the end, I think the differences are in our communicating what good works are and not so much faith. The answer lies in the will and heart, which God knows as judge.

For a good reference to my thoughts, please read the parable in Matthew 21:28

Hope this makes sense, i was busy and in and out of writing it
Michael