Can We Get Catholics to Sing? - Part Deux

[pnewton]

You and another poster mentioned familiarity and that’s a good point.

Alas, we really follow the rubrics so instead of singing Mass VIII that everyone knows, we sing whatever mass is appropriate. I think there are about 18 masses in the Kyriale. We do alternate.

I think this is the problem. People will not sing what they do not know. They can’t sing what they do not know. It may well be that what is being asked of them is simply beyond their abilities. If it was me, I would view this as a challenge of years. Namely, sing the chants seasonally, the same thing, over and over. Then next year, include another, which is repeated, and continue until everything has been heard by those there all the time.

I am at a loss as to propers and how all that works, but it may be that things where participation is really desired, a common tone could be used for weeks at a time.

Again, I acknowledge my ignorance here and am only thinking in terms of what I have used implemented for the EF.

Now, if you had some real dedicated and faithful folks, like, abnormally so, you could link the music on YouTube and have everyone practice at home! AHhhh, if only…

 

[jeannetherese]

Trying to sing high notes in a whisper will only make them harder to hit.

I wonder if any of the posters with backgrounds in vocal coaching might have some tips or webpages they would like to recommend concerning singing technique?
The more we know the better we’ll sing and be able to support others in their singing.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

I really really really dislike snide remarks about old ladies.

Did you know that the little old lady sitting next to you nursed her husband for 15 years while he slowly died of Alzheimers disease.
Did you know that little old lady across the hall was a nurse in WWII or the Korean War and saw more death than you can ever imagine.
Did you know that the little old lady who prays daily the Rosary buried four of her children who were killed in an accident.

What do you know about little old ladies who have suffered, lived, prayed and worked harder in life than you can ever imagine. Many little old ladies have buried sons, daughters, husbands, mothers, father, brothers and sisters. They deserve respect and admiration for clinging to their faith in spite of disappointment that have destroyed far weaker people.

So they sing out of your range. Sing an octive below them. I seriously doubt you know what you are talking about because with age most women’s voice become lower not higher.

I never disrespected older women. I said they sang very high. This is the voice range God gave them and I am not condemning that. I am sorry you took it this way, but you got the wrong idea. I am actually very respectful towards older people and I admire them a lot. My favorite cultures are cultures that prize the elders of the society (Such as Middle Eastern and Japanese cultures).

I am working on trying to not automatically conform to whatever range is near me, but it is hard at first, especially if you are nervous in front of singing around family, added to the fact I am not trying to sing loud which constricts my vocal chords and makes it sound worse than it would have if I had simply sang in my usual loud manner. I have heard people say they are more inclined to sing in Mass when a person that can sing does so loudly as it makes them feel no one will hear them, so perhaps I shall give this a try.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Trying to sing high notes in a whisper will only make them harder to hit.

This is true. I actually have a naturally high range for a guy and I can hit a lot of high notes (Though I do sing around the medium range as well), but some of the notes in Church music just get me, especially if I whisper. Whispering constricts the vocal chords and it makes it nearly impossible to hit them without sounding like a screeching tire.

 

[Cat]

I never disrespected older women. I said they sang very high. This is the voice range God gave them and I am not condemning that. I am sorry you took it this way, but you got the wrong idea. I am actually very respectful towards older people and I admire them a lot. My favorite cultures are cultures that prize the elders of the society (Such as Middle Eastern and Japanese cultures).

I am working on trying to not automatically conform to whatever range is near me, but it is hard at first,*** especially if you are nervous in front of singing around family***, added to the fact I am not trying to sing loud which constricts my vocal chords and makes it sound worse than it would have if I had simply sang in my usual loud manner. I have heard people say they are more inclined to sing in Mass when a person that can sing does so loudly as it makes them feel no one will hear them, so perhaps I shall give this a try.

Please refer to bolded, italicized phrase above.

I find this phrase amazing. I think it is the key to what the problem is, not only in Catholic churches, but in many Protestant churches, and indeed, in any setting where there is corporate singing.

WHY are we nervous about singing with others!!! I don’t get this at all, but apparently many people ARE nervous about singing with others, and will not do so, even for a simple song like Happy Birthday.

Why? Where did this come from? How did we get to this place in the U.S.?

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, a lot of corporations had “corporate songs” that their workers would sing at meetings and social events.

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, various singing organizations were popular in many cities. In our city, the Norwegian Singers’ Association of America had a large and thriving chapter, with hundreds of men, yes, MEN, in the choir! Now there are just 11 men–I play for them, and it’s so cool to see these men sing just for the pleasure of singing. I attended their convention this summer, and the men from our chapter relaxed in our team room, drank plenty of beer, and sang song after song, just for fun!

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, children would sing on buses, around a campfire, and during playground games (especially jump rope).

And it’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, Glee Clubs in high schools were filled, and they didn’t get slushies thrown in their faces–they were “cool.”

IMO, the thinking that we should be nervous singing around other needs to be corrected in the United States.

I wish I could think of something to do to correct this. I wish I really COULD teach the world the sing. Maybe I should write Coca Cola and ask if they would underwrite a nationwide campaign to teach people to sing and to LOVE singing!

 

[TrueLight]

Again, I acknowledge my ignorance here and am only thinking in terms of what I have used implemented for the EF.

Now, if you had some real dedicated and faithful folks, like, abnormally so, you could link the music on YouTube and have everyone practice at home! AHhhh, if only…

I think this is a good idea. We are thinking about a choir blog, so that would be a good place to put links to Youtube videos (with chant notation), where maybe people could practice and maybe we could even include PDFs that people could print ahead of time.

 

[ThePaladin]

I’m noticing allot ofcomments on the range or music in the majority of liturgical music, as well as a general complaint for a lack of four part music. Generally, I’ve found as a cantor that the tessatura of most hymns sit between an A and a D, with extremities (rarely) going up to an e. The elderly lady sitting behind you will sing that in her range, but that is Soley because her voice is far more higher then yours. This is not due to the fact that the music itself is high. I, myself, am a baritone, and really have little difficulty singing most of our hymns.

Another comment: if the cantor seems to be flailing his arms wildly, its probably because is is standing at the ambo looking out at the congregation who is giving him a bores, sour, non singing face. Start singing, and I can garantee he will stop.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Please refer to bolded, italicized phrase above.

I find this phrase amazing. I think it is the key to what the problem is, not only in Catholic churches, but in many Protestant churches, and indeed, in any setting where there is corporate singing.

WHY are we nervous about singing with others!!! I don’t get this at all, but apparently many people ARE nervous about singing with others, and will not do so, even for a simple song like Happy Birthday.

Why? Where did this come from? How did we get to this place in the U.S.?

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, a lot of corporations had “corporate songs” that their workers would sing at meetings and social events.

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, various singing organizations were popular in many cities. In our city, the Norwegian Singers’ Association of America had a large and thriving chapter, with hundreds of men, yes, MEN, in the choir! Now there are just 11 men–I play for them, and it’s so cool to see these men sing just for the pleasure of singing. I attended their convention this summer, and the men from our chapter relaxed in our team room, drank plenty of beer, and sang song after song, just for fun!

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, children would sing on buses, around a campfire, and during playground games (especially jump rope).

And it’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, Glee Clubs in high schools were filled, and they didn’t get slushies thrown in their faces–they were “cool.”

IMO, the thinking that we should be nervous singing around other needs to be corrected in the United States.

I wish I could think of something to do to correct this. I wish I really COULD teach the world the sing. Maybe I should write Coca Cola and ask if they would underwrite a nationwide campaign to teach people to sing and to LOVE singing!

I love singing. I sing just for the sake of singing all the time. I probably wouldn’t like it as much if I didn’t have a good singing voice, but I do love singing, just not in front of my parents. I sing with my sister all the time, but I am just not comfortable singing in front of my parents. I don’t know, just blame it on being sixteen in a month.

 

[anp1215]

Please refer to bolded, italicized phrase above.

I find this phrase amazing. I think it is the key to what the problem is, not only in Catholic churches, but in many Protestant churches, and indeed, in any setting where there is corporate singing.

WHY are we nervous about singing with others!!! I don’t get this at all, but apparently many people ARE nervous about singing with others, and will not do so, even for a simple song like Happy Birthday.

Why? Where did this come from? How did we get to this place in the U.S.?

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, a lot of corporations had “corporate songs” that their workers would sing at meetings and social events.

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, various singing organizations were popular in many cities. In our city, the Norwegian Singers’ Association of America had a large and thriving chapter, with hundreds of men, yes, MEN, in the choir! Now there are just 11 men–I play for them, and it’s so cool to see these men sing just for the pleasure of singing. I attended their convention this summer, and the men from our chapter relaxed in our team room, drank plenty of beer, and sang song after song, just for fun!

It’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, children would sing on buses, around a campfire, and during playground games (especially jump rope).

And it’s hard to believe that only a few decades ago, Glee Clubs in high schools were filled, and they didn’t get slushies thrown in their faces–they were “cool.”

IMO, the thinking that we should be nervous singing around other needs to be corrected in the United States.

I wish I could think of something to do to correct this. I wish I really COULD teach the world the sing. Maybe I should write Coca Cola and ask if they would underwrite a nationwide campaign to teach people to sing and to LOVE singing!

I would say there’s a good chance that it’s because people aren’t confident in their singing abilities.

 

[SMHW]

WHY are we nervous about singing with others!!! I don’t get this at all, but apparently many people ARE nervous about singing with others, and will not do so, even for a simple song like Happy Birthday.

Why? Where did this come from? How did we get to this place in the U.S.?
.
.
.
I wish I could think of something to do to correct this. I wish I really COULD teach the world the sing. Maybe I should write Coca Cola and ask if they would underwrite a nationwide campaign to teach people to sing and to LOVE singing!

I think you’ve hit on it here.

There may be a Catholic component as to why people don’t sing. But I think the problem is really much bigger than that. I think it is more an American problem. And it’s maybe an English speaking Western culture problem.

I remember when I was in Catholic grammar school we actually had a book of songs that the teacher would pass out to students and we’d sing in the classroom. The songs were mostly American folk songs. We didn’t really learn to read music but we at least received a bare bones introduction to musical notation. I wonder how commonly that happens in today’ classrooms? Lucky students may have a school with band or choir but it’s probably an after-school event and not required for all.

In Catholic school we did sometimes practice hymns for Mass. This was mid 1960s when Mass was in English but before the the 1970 OF was implemented. In my earliest years we went to daily Mass. When the school grew to large for all classes to fit in the church at one time we went once a week. So we had lots of opportunities to sing and it was expected of us. Since it was expected, most people sang.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Simple. People don’t begin singing when they are young these days, so naturally they won’t want to when they are older.

We need more programs to get them going. How about a school like the Madeleine Choir School? utmcs.org/

 

[Sarabande]

I wonder if any of the posters with backgrounds in vocal coaching might have some tips or webpages they would like to recommend concerning singing technique?
The more we know the better we’ll sing and be able to support others in their singing.

Well, it’s better to give tips in person so that you can see what the other is doing, but these might help;

• As a couple others mentioned, “whisper” singing really will make it harder to sing the “high” notes. Unless you have enough training to use a lot of strength and support in order to make the lovliest and open pianissimo, it will be difficult. For the average person, it constricts. So sing out.
• Don’t sing in complete chest voice. Don’t be afraid of your head voice. Today, people have the tendency to sing in just the chest voice. I think one of the reasons is that so many popular singers in the pop/rock genres do this and people think that is the only way to sing. But for many, that really limits the vocal range. Don’t be afraid of your head voice. It might feel weird at first to incorporate this “lost” part of the singing voice into full use, but it actually will make it easier to sing the more “traditional” hymns and even some of the modern ones. I have a student who could barely get past an E above middle C, she was so used to just singing in only a chest voice. I’ve only had a few lessons with her and have stretched her vocal range way beyond that E. She took lessons because she was having trouble singing hymns and now feels more comfortable singing them. If this was a few decades ago, I would not have had to give her voice lessons because people were used to singing with their head voices as well.

 

[Sarabande]

…
WHY are we nervous about singing with others!!! I don’t get this at all, but apparently many people ARE nervous about singing with others, and will not do so, even for a simple song like Happy Birthday.

Why? Where did this come from? How did we get to this place in the U.S.?

Part of the reason is that the culture, at least here in the States, view singing as a dorky and, for males, a “gay” thing to do. I know that was how my classmates were viewed back in grade school and high school. We did have boys in our choirs, but they weren’t nearly as many as the girls.

This outlook didn’t just happen over night either. It has been coming about for decades. I can’t remember if I had mentioned it on this thread, but I know a man in his 70s who attended Catholic school through high school. In his school and parish boys were not allowed to join the choir… only girls. My father, who is in his 60s, remembers how back in the 1950s and 1960s, being involved with music and singing was a completely geeky thing to do. He played trumpet in the band and his family was very much into singing (still are), but that was unusual. The macho, “real” men during his time, only did sports and other “manly” activities. The skinny, geeky, dorky, sensitive-types (bad word for males to be back then), bookish types got into music and literature.

So, I’m guessing that perhaps his generation and apparently the generation before that kept perpetuating this idea of singing in front of others would be embarrassing.

Then I think of my grandparents’ generation, born in the 1920s, and seemed to be more open and loving of music. My grandfather, who played football in high school, a “tough” marine who had seen all the horrors of war by the time he was wounded in the Pacific during WWII… a tall, strong, very handsome “speciman of a man”, loved music. He never played an instrument because his family could not afford lessons, but loved singing and hearing others play instruments. (He was a German Lutheran, though, which could explain the love of singing.)

That leads me back to an earlier comment I made in this thread. Perhaps one of the reasons why my grandparents’ generation enjoyed the participatory singing and playing is because it was still a generation where they couldn’t all completely rely on recordings. People still needed to learn how to play an instrument or to just sing in order to “entertain” themselves and each other. 50s and 60s more people were able to afford records in which the recording quality was better. People were getting used to just being a “spectator” when it came to singing and playing. On top of that, they were becoming accustomed to not hearing live musicians who will make mistakes here and there. Recordings were always so “perfect”. So now, there was also this idea of not making a fool of yourself if you can’t be perfect… even if you weren’t trained as a musician. People may not think about it so much, but I do think that recorded music has added to this belief.

 

[SMHW]

That leads me back to an earlier comment I made in this thread. Perhaps one of the reasons why my grandparents’ generation enjoyed the participatory singing and playing is because it was still a generation where they couldn’t all completely rely on recordings. People still needed to learn how to play an instrument or to just sing in order to “entertain” themselves and each other.

I think this has a lot to do with it.

There have always been and will no doubt always be people who don’t like a particular activity and nothing will ever change their mind. But there are probably a great number of people who will not actively seek to engage in an activity but when coerced into doing so, find it pleasant. Singing --and specifically singing at Mass-- is such an activity.

50s and 60s more people were able to afford records in which the recording quality was better. People were getting used to just being a “spectator” when it came to singing and playing. On top of that, they were becoming accustomed to not hearing live musicians who will make mistakes here and there. Recordings were always so “perfect”. So now, there was also this idea of not making a fool of yourself if you can’t be perfect… even if you weren’t trained as a musician. People may not think about it so much, but I do think that recorded music has added to this belief.

I know the perfectionism aspect comes into play. But I think the passivity/spectator factor is the biggest cause. If the priest actually asks people to sing I do think that more people sing. But they have to be asked frequently.

 

[Cat]

I definitely think that a lot of boys/men get a message from their peers and from their daddies that “singing is gay.”

But I don’t get this at all! Many of the same men who give their sons the message that “singing is gay” LOVE listening to rock, country, and jazz music, and many of the singers in the three genres are MEN who are not gay (although certainly some of the men are gay, just like some football players are gay, and some construction workers are gay, and some soldiers are gay, and some priests are gay).

Think about it–Aerosmith–some of the coolest guys ever! Not gay. And wow, can Steven Tyler sing beautifully!

As for country, you can’t get more macho than Tim McGraw (married for many years to the beautiful Faith Hill). Or Johnny Cash, RIP.

I’m only giving a few examples, but there are literally hundreds of men who sing who are not gay (or if they are, they’re doing a good job of faking being straight).

So why is it cool when all these guys sing, but NOT cool when Johnny Daddyson wants to join the choir?!!

Do parents really think that singing (or figure skating) will turn their sons gay? How can they think that when the majority of men who sing (or figure skate) are NOT gay?

I just don’t get this idea that singing is gay.

And I really don’t like the idea of “gay” being something “bad.” I think that’s offensive, and that we shouldn’t teach our children the concept that something, e.g., a floral wallpaper, or a Volkswagen Rabbit, is “gay” and therefore bad.

The Catholic Church teaches that SSA is a cross that some people must bear. But being “gay” isn’t a sin or “bad”, any more than being born with some other difficult-to-live-with trait is a sin or “bad”.

I think people are misusing the word “gay,” and what they should really say is “effeminate.”

But as I pointed out above, there is nothing effeminate about Tim McGraw, Steven Tyler, Johnny Cash, and a host of other great male singers.

 

[sw85]

Does it matter if we all sing? As far as I know this was never expected to be a requirement of Mass until relatively recently and it really doesn’t seem to be catching on. In fact the rush to get people to sing seems to have accomplished nothing but the radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition.

It’s OK just to listen to music. Some of us have nerves. Some of us suck at singing. Etc.

 

[Glennford]

Does it matter if we all sing? As far as I know this was never expected to be a requirement of Mass until relatively recently and it really doesn’t seem to be catching on. In fact the rush to get people to sing seems to have accomplished nothing but the radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition.

This.

 

[TrueLight]

Does it matter if we all sing? As far as I know this was never expected to be a requirement of Mass until relatively recently and it really doesn’t seem to be catching on.

I’m not speaking of requirements! And of course not everyone need sing, but to not even have 5 people singing?

I spoke to a couple of priests and both of them thought it was the influence of the Irish in American Catholicism and acknowledged that it wasn’t the same in other countries.

In fact the rush to get people to sing seems to have accomplished nothing but the radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition.

Not if you’re singing the Kyrie, Gloria, Santus, Agnus Dei alternatum. At the FSSP parish where I got my instruction, the congregation sang alternatum with the choir.

 

[TrueLight]

Does it matter if we all sing? As far as I know this was never expected to be a requirement of Mass until relatively recently and it really doesn’t seem to be catching on. In fact the rush to get people to sing seems to have accomplished nothing but the radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition.
.

All the trads must have left/been banned if it took 78 posts for this to come up.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Does it matter if we all sing? As far as I know this was never expected to be a requirement of Mass until relatively recently and it really doesn’t seem to be catching on.

“Singing” at Mass is hardly a recent innovation. It traces back to the Apostolic age, and continues from Hebrew tradition.

There are biblical references, including:

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 26:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 14:26[/BIBLEDRB]