Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[liturgyluver]

I vehemently dislike Protestant hymns, not only for their theological content (or lack thereof), but also for the musical quality of them. I do not want to go to mass and hear a guitar, as I can do that on my own.

Naturally, the music in that setting has developed, over thousands of years, into a repertoire of grandeur and beauty which is unlike that of any other religion.

Thankfully, my parish is very old, the Redemptorist priests are devout, and so I attend masses that are generally extremely reverent, abuse-free in form and aesthetically very stereotypically “Catholic.”

I believe that lyrics, if containing Protestant-sounding ideas even in the smallest amount, should not be sung. I believe, furthermore, that as the organ and chant are stereotypically “Catholic,” they should be embraced and utilized in every parish, even if the organ is a simple electric model with speakers interspersed throughout the nave. I believe that all Catholic churches should acknowledge and honor our musical history.

---

As far as to whether we can get Catholics to sing, I’d prefer to listen to a professional or regularly-practicing amateur choir than a congregation with various levels of musical ability.

I think you are confusing modern worship style music (which actually has its orgins in the catholic folk music from the 1960s) with traditional hymns that can and should be sung congregationally. Sadly what you describe as steretypically catholic is not stereotypical at all any more: Organs were found first in protestant churches and many catholic churches today have very poor electronic organs compared with the lovely pipe organs you find in anglican and lutheran churches. The latter still uphold very traditional music, and you’re much more likely to find guitars - and modern vacuous music - in a Catholic church than an Anglican or Lutheran.

I suspect that some of the music that you dislike and describe as protestant was actually written by catholics, and conversely also some of the traditional hymns that you think as traditonally catholic were written by protestants. The Catholic musical heritage includes gregorian chant, Latin hymns and Vernacular hymns used in low mass. But from earlier this century traditional protestant hymns (see my list below) and mass settings have been used to great effect.

I don’t think anybody who is arguing for hymn singing in church is advocating modern worship style music: as far as I am am concerned guitars and drums have no place in mass, but it’s a nonsense to say that worship can’t be enhanced by the wonderful hymns by protestant authors, some examples of which I have listed below:

Lo He comes with clouds descending
In the Bleak midwinter
O little town of Bethlehem
Once in Royal David’s City
What Child is this?
Faithful Vigil ended
My song is love unknown
When I survey the wondorous Cross
Sing we of the Blessed Mother
Who are these like stars appearing?
The day thou gavest
Alleluia Sing to Jesus
Deck thyself my soul with gladness
Lord Jesus think on me
Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
O thou who at the Eucharist did pray
Abide with me
All people that on earth do dwell
Angel voices ever singing
Come ye faithful raise the anthem
How sweet the name of Jesus sounds
I heard the voice of Jesus say
King of Glory, King of Peace
Christ Triumphant ever reigning
Tell Out My Soul
Love Divine All Loves Excelling
Praise my soul the King of Heaven
Ye Holy Angels Bright (this was written by a Presbyterian)
Judge Eternal Throned in Splendour
Lord for the Years

Like it or not these are all in the catholic hymnals and can be used appropriately in the mass. Most parishes should aim to provide a combination of said masses, one with proper chant, and another with hymns, and the better ones are starting to do this.

And as to your point about choirs. Choirs can certanily sing the choral mass settings and an anthem but hymns by their definition are congregational and should be sung by all. The choir should enhance and support the congregation’s singing, You only need to go to Westminster Cathedral and Brompton Oratory in London to experience wonderful and reverent mass, complemented by beautiful musical settings, and lovely hymns that the clergy and congregations sing with gusto.

 

[ProVobis]

it’s a nonsense to say that worship can’t be enhanced by the wonderful hymns by protestant authors

Worship can be enhanced by a lot of things, and many of them could be done without a priest, outside of Mass, and outside our Sunday obligation. To think otherwise distorts the focus of the Catholic Church. Organs are not part of Mass, and neither are the top 40 Protestant or pop hymns. I think that was the other poster’s point.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Considering that some Protestant churches already have “liturgical dance” I fear what your quote really means for our current times.

Well, many Protestant churches don’t have liturgies, period.

The quote refers to the fact that, historically, Catholics don’t sing during Mass and many Protestant religions frowned on dancing of any kind, liturgical or otherwise.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think you are confusing modern worship style music (which actually has its orgins in the catholic folk music from the 1960s) with traditional hymns that can and should be sung congregationally. Sadly what you describe as steretypically catholic is not stereotypical at all any more: Organs were found first in protestant churches and many catholic churches today have very poor electronic organs compared with the lovely pipe organs you find in anglican and lutheran churches. The latter still uphold very traditional music, and you’re much more likely to find guitars - and modern vacuous music - in a Catholic church than an Anglican or Lutheran.

I suspect that some of the music that you dislike and describe as protestant was actually written by catholics, and conversely also some of the traditional hymns that you think as traditonally catholic were written by protestants. The Catholic musical heritage includes gregorian chant, Latin hymns and Vernacular hymns used in low mass. But from earlier this century traditional protestant hymns (see my list below) and mass settings have been used to great effect.

I don’t think anybody who is arguing for hymn singing in church is advocating modern worship style music: as far as I am am concerned guitars and drums have no place in mass, but it’s a nonsense to say that worship can’t be enhanced by the wonderful hymns by protestant authors.

Like it or not these are all in the catholic hymnals and can be used appropriately in the mass. Most parishes should aim to provide a combination of said masses, one with proper chant, and another with hymns, and the better ones are starting to do this.

And as to your point about choirs. Choirs can certanily sing the choral mass settings and an anthem but hymns by their definition are congregational and should be sung by all. The choir should enhance and support the congregation’s singing, You only need to go to Westminster Cathedral and Brompton Oratory in London to experience wonderful and reverent mass, complemented by beautiful musical settings, and lovely hymns that the clergy and congregations sing with gusto.

First of all, stereotypes don’t change. If we go out on Main Street of an average American city and ask strangers what kind of music they’d expect to hear at a Catholic church, I suspect most of them would say they’d expect to hear a thunderous organ and beautiful chant. That is completely stereotypically Catholic. And about organs. You say that organs were “first” found in Protestant churches. That’s wrong, so very wrong. The pipe organ has been part of Catholic tradition for ages, long before Protestantism even existed. I do agree that many fundamentalist Protestant groups still subscribe to the very traditional music style. However, what I’m referring to more specifically is the evangelical, mega-church-type music, which is unacceptably and disgustingly modern. I mean these types of Protestant churches specifically because they are the ones that are growing in number and in size most rapidly, and thus are the ones that the Church, at least in the United States, has to compete most often against for people. Sorry, I didn’t make the distinction in my last post. If you take a cross-sampling of all the Protestant churches in America, I’m willing to bet the majority of the music is very modern.

Let me get down to it. I believe that music, regardless of its source artist, whether he be Catholic or Protestant, should not be played in a Catholic church if it contains a lick of Protestant theology or ideals in lyrics, or if it sounds modern and does not pay respect to the Church’s tradition. Similarly, I believe that music, regardless of its source artist, whether he be Catholic or Protestant, should certainly be played and fully embraced in Catholic churches if it contains lyrics full of Catholic theology and ideals, and if it pays proper respect to our musical tradition. More clearly, if a Protestant writes a mass setting that is Catholic in theology and ideals in its lyrics, and if the mass setting also pays proper respect and resembles traditional Catholic music, then I believe it should be embraced and played in Catholic churches. In my last post, I already explained why I believe it is important to uphold our musical tradition, and so I will not restate it here.

About the hymn-singing. Many hymns are very traditional. That’s an irrefutable fact. But the word “hymn” has a somewhat modern connotation in the liturgical music sphere, especially but not exclusively in the Catholic liturgical music sphere. I am not completely opposed to, nor do I find it completely inappropriate per se, to play Protestant hymns in mass, I do find it a bit unnerving and odd.

Can they be used appropriately in mass? Sure, but aren’t mass Propers more appropriate? It comes down to this: sing the mass, or sing something else. What’s better?

I retain my point about a choir singing exclusively during mass, at least for the majority of it.

 

[liturgyluver]

I do agree that many fundamentalist Protestant groups still subscribe to the very traditional music style. However, what I’m referring to more specifically is the evangelical, mega-church-type music, which is unacceptably and disgustingly modern. Sorry, I didn’t make the distinction in my last post. If you take a cross-sampling of all the Protestant churches in America, I’m willing to bet the majority of the music is very modern.

I believe that music, regardless of its source artist, whether he be Catholic or Protestant, should not be played in a Catholic church if it contains a lick of Protestant theology or ideals in lyrics, or if it sounds modern and does not pay respect to the Church’s tradition. Similarly, I believe that music, regardless of its source artist, whether he be Catholic or Protestant, should certainly be played and fully embraced in Catholic churches if it contains lyrics full of Catholic theology and ideals, and if it pays proper respect to our musical tradition. More clearly, if a Protestant writes a mass setting that is Catholic in theology and ideals in its lyrics, and if the mass setting also pays proper respect and resembles traditional Catholic music, then I believe it should be embraced and played in Catholic churches. In my last post, I already explained why I believe it is important to uphold our musical tradition, and so I will not restate it here.

About the hymn-singing. Many hymns are very traditional. That’s an irrefutable fact. But the word “hymn” has a somewhat modern connotation in the liturgical music sphere, especially but not exclusively in the Catholic liturgical music sphere. I am not completely opposed to, nor do I find it completely inappropriate per se, to play Protestant hymns in mass, I do find it a bit unnerving and odd.

Can they be used appropriately in mass? Sure, but aren’t mass Propers more appropriate? It comes down to this: sing the mass, or sing something else. What’s better?

I retain my point about a choir singing exclusively during mass, at least for the majority of it.

I agree with almost all of the points you make above, now that you have qualified the distinction between modern and traditional music. I think this distinction is important to make though as there is a trend to label all modern music as “protestant”, and all traditional music as Catholic when the truth is much more complex than that. In the UK 80% of pipe organs are now to be found in protestant churches, with most catholic churches using electronic instruments of variable quality.

There may be a geographical difference between perceptions of music in the Catholic church, but in the UK (and in Italy and Spain where I have also lived and worshipped), there is a general view that music in the Catholic church since Vatican II is very poor: In fact I have seen several posts elsewhere on this board that confirm this view. Latin masses, chanting the propers, (and even incense and sanctus bells) are not standard, wheras folk masses, guitars, clappy congregational settings can be found in abundance. I have met several Catholics in the UK who communicate at low mass at the Catholic church and also attend High Mass at the local Anglican Church - where incidently the mass settings are often choral and sung in 4-part harmony - because they dislike so much what they see at their church Sunday by Sunday, and the fact that feast days are not celebrated with any solemnity. From what I have heard of the US revised mass setting music for the new translation, a lot of it has a very “happy-clappy” feel, that is completely inappropriate for mass.

I do agree with you that the mass propers and chant should take priority, but I am yet to be convinced that this will ever be the case in anything but a handful of parishes. Given these facts, and the recent state of liturgical music in the Catholic church, there is - IMHO -no reason why chant can’t co-exist with appropriate hymns as different masses.

Going back to the original point about congregational singing, I forgot to mention there is an interesting book by Thomas Day called “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”, which is worth reading if you get the opportunity.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I agree with almost all of the points you make above, now that you have qualified the distinction between modern and traditional music. I think this distinction is important to make though as there is a trend to label all modern music as “protestant”, and all traditional music as Catholic when the truth is much more complex than that. In the UK 80% of pipe organs are now to be found in protestant churches, with most catholic churches using electronic instruments of variable quality.

There may be a geographical difference between perceptions of music in the Catholic church, but in the UK (and in Italy and Spain where I have also lived and worshipped), there is a general view that music in the Catholic church since Vatican II is very poor: In fact I have seen several posts elsewhere on this board that confirm this view. Latin masses, chanting the propers, (and even incense and sanctus bells) are not standard, wheras folk masses, guitars, clappy congregational settings can be found in abundance. I have met several Catholics in the UK who communicate at low mass at the Catholic church and also attend High Mass at the local Anglican Church - where incidently the mass settings are often choral and sung in 4-part harmony - because they dislike so much what they see at their church Sunday by Sunday, and the fact that feast days are not celebrated with any solemnity. From what I have heard of the US revised mass setting music for the new translation, a lot of it has a very “happy-clappy” feel, that is completely inappropriate for mass.

I do agree with you that the mass propers and chant should take priority, but I am yet to be convinced that this will ever be the case in anything but a handful of parishes. Given these facts, and the recent state of liturgical music in the Catholic church, there is - IMHO -no reason why chant can’t co-exist with appropriate hymns as different masses.

Going back to the original point about congregational singing, I forgot to mention there is an interesting book by Thomas Day called “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”, which is worth reading if you get the opportunity.

In America, I’d say pipe organs outnumber electric ones. However, many parishes are opting to buy electric ones when it comes time to repair and service their pipe organs. I’m of the opinion that any parish in a rich country like the United States or the United Kingdom with any real sizable congregation can make possessing a pipe organ possible, if the priority is made for that. I do agree that there is a geographical difference between perceptions of music in the Church. However, I make the distinction between perception and actuality. If I’m reading your post right, then the masses that are generally available in Europe are very similar to those generally available in the US, at least music-wise. However, I’d say most people don’t see anything wrong with terrible “folky” masses. Incense and sanctus bells are still very common, I’d say, on solemnities and feast bells; Americans still retain a bit of the “on Christmas and Easter, everyone attends church, so it better look good” attitude that was so common decades ago. I think it’s so sad, really, so sad, that Catholic churches, once known for their unchallenged beauty in every aspect, have been allowed, by clergy and parishioners alike, to go the wayside, and not just passively, but in many instances, actively. If people would really stop for a second to think, really think on a logical level, I suspect most would say that we should worship in a way that acknowledges the fear we should rightly have of our God, and the solemnity those occasions deserve.

I just have never understood, as a convert, why the Church practically let itself fall from the level of unmatched beauty it once had and, therefore, the level of absolute reverence its people had. I’m not saying beauty guarantees reverence, but if effort is put in to the way our churches look, smell, and sound, then that, I think, is a great indicator of the reverence and devotion of the people.

Nothing will ever change unless our attitudes change. That is the key. And the attitude that trumps them all is the one we have towards the Eucharist. Our churches are a shrine of the Body and Blood of our GOD. And once we get that through our skulls again, I think all other things will fall into place.

 

[Sarabande]

There may be a geographical difference between perceptions of music in the Catholic church, but in the UK (and in Italy and Spain where I have also lived and worshipped), there is a general view that music in the Catholic church since Vatican II is very poor: In fact I have seen several posts elsewhere on this board that confirm this view. Latin masses, chanting the propers, (and even incense and sanctus bells) are not standard, wheras folk masses, guitars, clappy congregational settings can be found in abundance. I have met several Catholics in the UK who communicate at low mass at the Catholic church and also attend High Mass at the local Anglican Church - where incidently the mass settings are often choral and sung in 4-part harmony - because they dislike so much what they see at their church Sunday by Sunday, and the fact that feast days are not celebrated with any solemnity. From what I have heard of the US revised mass setting music for the new translation, a lot of it has a very “happy-clappy” feel, that is completely inappropriate for mass…

I think I said this earlier on this thread, but I am so sad to hear that so many of the churches in the UK have resorted to the folksy masses. When I was studying there in the late 90s and then was there again in the early 2000s, I never attended a Catholic mass like that, but I attended mass mostly in London, so that might be the reason why.

As a musician and very involved with music in the Catholic church, you are very right about how people view music in the Catholic Church** today**, in America. Almost every one of my music colleagues would agree that many musicians consider the music of the Church laughable, especially when they compare it what was composed for the Church prior. It now has such a poor reputation, not just with music, but with quality of musicianship. If you tell people that you work as a musician at a Catholic parish, many will automatically assume that you are a poor musician or they pity you for having to do the music so common in many of the parishes, especially in more suburban parishes.

Fortunately, I’ve been seeing more parishes trying to bring back better music and musicians, actually. I’ve been seeing it more in larger cities and also in more artsy communities, like in small towns and such near major metropolitan areas where you will see that the parishes have actually developed successful concert series using their own musicians and then also professional chamber groups and singers from the area, the region and even nationally. Along with that they also try to use quality music and musicians for mass.

 

[Cat]

I just have never understood, as a convert, why the Church practically let itself fall from the level of unmatched beauty it once had and, therefore, the level of absolute reverence its people had.

You ask why the Church let Herself fall from the level of unmatched beauty it once had.

It’s because in many parishes, the “good” musicians have left because they disagree with Catholic teachings on homosexuality, abortion, extra-marital sex, co-habitation, and contraception, but especially homosexuality.

Didn’t anyone on this forum think it was strange that I can only list four “professional” musicians out of a parish of over 7000 people? FOUR musicians out of 7000 people?!!! Did you get that?! Did that register with anyone?!!

Where the heck are all the musicians?!!!

It wasn’t always like this. Seven years ago when my husband and I converted and started becoming involved with this parish, there were quite a few professional singers and instrumentalists.

But then the diocese fired our organist after he announced to a group of parish school children (under age 13) that he and his partner were planning to adopt a child. (How do you think the parents reacted to that?!)

He had given the diocese the impression that he was living celibately, which is why he was hired. So all that time, he was lying.

Anyway, the diocese obviously couldn’t keep someone who was living in sin and proud of it and bragged to children about it. So the man was fired. It was the right decision. I and my husband agreed and still agree with it.

BUT OMG! What a firestorm in the city and throughout the gay community in the entire U.S.A!

The community, especially the local musicians, (with the prompting of the gay community across the country) rallied together behind this man, and at the moment, seven years later, our parish is STILL blacklisted by the professional organ association, AGO. My organ teacher is not allowed to come into my parish and show me how to use our pipe organ.

And essentially almost every professional music in our parish LEFT, in protest, wearing rainbow apparel to show their support for their persecuted fellow musician. Many of them left in a public way, during a Mass, standing up and making it obvious that they were leaving the parish in disgust. Many of them willingly allowed themselves to be interviewed on TV and in other local media, explaining that they could no longer be part of a church that called gayness a “sin.”

I move in the music circles in our city because of my work with youth music and my volunteer work with our local music club. To this day, seven years later, I meet professional musicians in our city who feel obligated to tell me that my church is wrong for firing the organist, and that the Catholic Church is wrong to teach that homosexuality is a sin. Many of them say that they have quit the Catholic Church totally and will never go back unless these teachings are changed.

So here’s my take on this–there will not be “good” music in any church unless there are good musicians. The untrained laypeople cannot suddenly start manifesting good chant, polyphony, and other ancient forms of music that many of them have never been exposed to except in horror movies and popular recordings. They need to be taught and led.

If you disagree with this, then we are at an impasse. I do not think that regular laypeople, non-musicians, can teach themselves how to be good musicians. I’ve heard people say that you can learn chant from the internet. Well, maybe, but I think it will sound pretty bad, and definitely not return to the church to a time when the music was beautiful and ethereal.

(continued next post)

 

[Cat]

(continued from last post)

Now let’s add this FACT to the mix–music education is abysmal.

So not only do the laypeople need to be taught about the various ancient music forms, they also need to be taught the very elementary basics about music itself. How to sing properly, how to listen and hear the pitch and then sing the pitch back again, how to sing by ear so that they can hear a line of chant and then repeat it, how to breathe properly. People don’t KNOW these things, and if they don’t know them, they cannot sing chant or any kind of music with any degree of beauty. You can’t learn these things off the internet!

Again, if you disagree, and believe that untrained people can train themselves to hear and sing correctly, then we are at impasse.

We must always keep in mind that in the professional world of music, a large number of musicians (and other performing artists, e.g., theater people) are GAY, openly, unashamedly gay. I’ve heard estimates from those who work in this world that at least 50% of musicians are gay. (My daughter, a theater professional, tells me that I would be amazed how many of my favorites are gay, but not out.)

To oppose homosexuality in any way is to be blackballed from getting work and earning a living, so most professional musicians, including Christian musicians, are very careful to never publically speak out against homosexuality.

It’s possible that a musician who cannot get work performing could teach. But remember, the public schools are heavily vested in the belief that homosexuality is normal and beautiful, so it’s not likely that a musician known for anti-gay views will be able to get any kind of teaching job in the public sector. Perhaps he/she could attract a large number of students from strict Catholic and evangelical Protestant families. But these students would discover, as they get older, that THEY are blacklisted from gigs because of their teacher, and so many of them, at least the Catholic students, would depart and find a new teacher for the sake of their professional advancement.

The reason why evangelical Protestant churches seem to attract good musicians is that these churches have created their own “fortress culture.” The musicians in their churches do not generally get outside the “evangelical walls,” but that’s OK, because they get enough work within the evangelical world that they are able to support themselves by just performing, writing, teaching, etc. in evangelical circles.

But this is NOT the case in Catholic Churches, because they don’t pay their musicians, and because there isn’t a huge number of Catholic “fans” who buy CDs, attend concerts, and provide a living for the Catholic musicians. Any musician who is Catholic HAS to take gigs outside of the Church doors to be able to support themselves and a family, and that means that they HAVE to work with gay musicians. And that’s really hard when the gay musicians perceive the Catholic musician as “anti-gay.” No wonder so many Catholic musicians leave the Church–they don’t get paid for their hard work. And to make matters worse, many of their fellow Catholics criticize them constantly for playing too loud, too soft, too modern, too ancient, dressing too flamboyantly, showing off, seeking ego fulfillment, etc. (Just read this forum–it’s really hard to be a musician and read some of the mean things that people say about Mass musicians.)

Think of John Michael Talbot. I’m guessing that for the last 30 years or so, most of his income does NOT come from Catholics. It comes from evangelical Protestants who love his music and attend his concerts. He is part of their world, in which it is OK to be anti-gay. But you don’t see John Michael Talbot performing in secular venues, do you? Of course not. He would never be booked because he is part of the Catholic Church, which is “anti-gay.”

So I’m thinking that except for a few large parishes, probably those in cities with Catholic universities, most parishes will have a very difficult time restoring the “glory days” of good Catholic music because they don’t have any professional musicians. You can’t do it without good musicians, and too many of those have departed because they want to show support for their fellow gay musicians.

Like it or not, that’s the way it is in 2011 in the U.S.

(concluded next post)

 

[Cat]

(continued from last post, conclusion)

So what’s the remedy?

Fortressing ourselves, like the evangelical Protestants have done? I think a lot of Catholics would be open to this approach, but is this really the approach that Christ wants us to take?

I do think that it makes sense for each diocese to establish a few parishes as “Centers of Musical Excellence,” and hire the best of the devout and orthodox (not openly gay) Catholic musicians as the music directors in these parishes. These “Centers” would then become a refuge for Catholics who simply can’t tolerate the music in their own parishes. They would also become an example and a center of education for Catholics who want to improve the music in their own parish.

I think that we probably need to make use of the few professional musicians who HAVE stuck with the Church, even though they close themselves off to professional opportunities, and I think we need to PAY these musicians a living wage and treat them well, and work with them to create a strategy for educating Catholic laypeople.

I also think we need to launch an all-stops out education campaign in parish schools to teach our Catholic children about the history of Catholic music and how to sing/play this music. I think this educational campaign needs to be extended outside of the school into the parish, since most Catholic children do not attend parish schools because of the expense. And I think that the adults in the parish need a lot of education as well.

But at this time, I don’t see any of these things happening because the attitude is widespread in the U.S. that music is not “required” for any Mass, so why spend money and time on it? What I see happening is more and more Catholics finding their “Christian” music fix in Protestant churches and secular concert halls.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Do not ask me to sing raining down, please.

 

[ProVobis]

Fortressing ourselves, like the evangelical Protestants have done? I think a lot of Catholics would be open to this approach, but is this really the approach that Christ wants us to take?

Okay, here’s the thing. Protestants are under no obligation to attend regular services so when they go to hymn-singing, they probably do so willingly. Same with a Catholic who attends a recital or service at a Protestant Church. He goes on his own and probably because he enjoys singing, knowing full well he will be offered both likeable and less-than-100%likeable hymns.

Catholic OTOH, are under an obligation to attend Mass and only the Mass once a week. They are under no obligation to sing or even to listen to hymns. (Or even to receive communion, for that matter.) So, yes, you will have a percentage of people who don’t go for the hymns and would be unwilling to sing hymns, though they will willingly do their obligation, which really what matters to a Catholic.

Protestants who don’t care for the hymns would probably not attend so it is reasonable to expect that those who do attend will be robust singers.

 

[lisahiku]

If people heard my singing voice, they would prefer I NOT sing the hymns!

 

[Cat]

If people heard my singing voice, they would prefer I NOT sing the hymns!

That’s not true at all.

 

[liturgyluver]

Okay, here’s the thing. Protestants are under no obligation to attend regular services so when they go to hymn-singing, they probably do so willingly. Same with a Catholic who attends a recital or service at a Protestant Church. He goes on his own and probably because he enjoys singing, knowing full well he will be offered both likeable and less-than-100%likeable hymns.

Catholic OTOH, are under an obligation to attend Mass and only the Mass once a week. They are under no obligation to sing or even to listen to hymns. (Or even to receive communion, for that matter.) So, yes, you will have a percentage of people who don’t go for the hymns and would be unwilling to sing hymns, though they will willingly do their obligation, which really what matters to a Catholic.

Protestants who don’t care for the hymns would probably not attend so it is reasonable to expect that those who do attend will be robust singers.

But we are not talking about going hymn singing or carol services. We are talking - in both protestant and catholic traditions - about hymns that are part of the respective liturgy on the day in question. What you seem to be saying is that Catholics would knowingly go to a mass that includes hymns, and effectively veto the hymns because they know they don’t have to sing them? This doesn’t account for the geographical differences that have been highlighted: Why are German Catholics able to sing hymns as well as the Lutherans?

I think, increasingly, it would be interesting to ask Catholics the question directly. Though according to Thomas Day in his book “Why Catholics can’t sing”, most parishes would deny this is an issue.

 

[ProVobis]

Why are German Catholics able to sing hymns as well as the Lutherans?

I don’t know about the Germans but the Poles seem attached to some patriotic hymns and sing robustly. But who’s going to call them out on it, since 90% of Poles are Catholic?

The point, however, doesn’t change. There is no obligation to sing or listen to hymns. Stick to the propers and ordinary of the Mass. If only I had a dollar for every OF Offertory prayer that was “skipped” because of some Protestant hymn that went into four or five verses and everyone just sat there looking bored…

 

[vardaquinn]

Don’t know if this has already been mentioned, but there’s a great book out there called “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” by Thomas Day. Very instructive, witty, and thoughtful. Everyone who has any opinion on liturgical music and Catholics singing should read it.

 

[liturgyluver]

Don’t know if this has already been mentioned, but there’s a great book out there called “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” by Thomas Day. Very instructive, witty, and thoughtful. Everyone who has any opinion on liturgical music and Catholics singing should read it.

It’s a great book, I am just reading it now, But very depressing. And the observations about poor music and singing resonate with so many here, both in the US and UK.

 

[liturgyluver]

I don’t know about the Germans but the Poles seem attached to some patriotic hymns and sing robustly. But who’s going to call them out on it, since 90% of Poles are Catholic?

The point, however, doesn’t change. There is no obligation to sing or listen to hymns. Stick to the propers and ordinary of the Mass. If only I had a dollar for every OF Offertory prayer that was “skipped” because of some Protestant hymn that went into four or five verses and everyone just sat there looking bored…

The German hymns I am talking about are not patriotic ones. I have heard identical liturgical hymns in Lutheran and Catholic churches sung beautifully.

It’s an interesting theory that people don’t sing because there is no obligation to do so. (Presumably though there are other aspects of the mass like sharing the peace that are not an obligation, but people still do it?) But somehow I fail to see how a congregation that has had 40 years of modern liturgy is going to think: “Do you know I am not going to sing this hymn, because I don’t have to. I wish we were receiting the propers instead.” It also seems quite a truculent attitude to adopt: if the congregation feel so strongly why not request that chants are used instead or go to a different mass?

And it’s irrelevant whether the hymns is protestant or catholic in orgin: Yesterday at mass, the beautiful (Catholic) hymn “Sweet Sacramant Divine” was scheduled and in a congregation of over 150, I’d say about 15 of us were singing. As I sang, I noticed most people had their hymnals opened. I have decided that next week, at coffee after mass , I am going to ask people direct.

 

[Cat]

The German hymns I am talking about are not patriotic ones. I have heard identical liturgical hymns in Lutheran and Catholic churches sung beautifully.

It’s an interesting theory that people don’t sing because there is no obligation to do so. (Presumably though there are other aspects of the mass like sharing the peace that are not an obligation, but people still do it?) But somehow I fail to see how a congregation that has had 40 years of modern liturgy is going to think: “Do you know I am not going to sing this hymn, because I don’t have to. I wish we were receiting the propers instead.” It also seems quite a truculent attitude to adopt: if the congregation feel so strongly why not request that chants are used instead or go to a different mass?

And it’s irrelevant whether the hymns is protestant or catholic in orgin: Yesterday at mass, the beautiful (Catholic) hymn “Sweet Sacramant Divine” was scheduled and in a congregation of over 150, I’d say about 15 of us were singing. As I sang, I noticed most people had their hymnals opened. I have decided that next week, at coffee after mass , I am going to ask people direct.

Thank you for being forthright and asking! I will be eagerly awaiting what people have to say.

I’m guessing that the majority of people will chuckle and say, “Ohhh, I can’t sing. I just like to listen.”

And that doesn’t bother me at all. I know that a lot of people are very self-conscious about singing in front of others, and IMO, that’s actually an understandable attitude. Singing involves using body parts like our diaphragms, our tongues, and our lips right in public, in front of other people! No wonder people are self-conscious!

And in the U.S., we have made singing into a “spectator activity,” especially in the last ten years with the advent of shows like American Idol and all the other talent shows on TV.

Most people don’t mind one bit thought, if someone who is not an “American Idol” candidate sings in church!

And I don’t have a problem with people not singing as long as they are engaged and listening actively with rapt attention and obvious enjoyment or concentration. What I have problems with are the people who are OBVIOUSLY sooooooo bored out of their gourds by the music and who OBVIOUSLY wish that the hymn would just go away now because they’re so disgusted with it.

In this life, we have to do a lot of things that we really don’t enjoy to pieces. IMO, we need to learn how to be polite, keep a pleasant, or at least neutral expression on our faces, and not wreck things up for all the rest of the people who truly DO enjoy the activity, or who are trying to get through it with as much enjoyment as possible.

IMO, singing the hymns in Mass, or at least listening to the hymns in Mass, is no where near as unpleasant as a colonoscopy, so why look like it? For the sake of good manners and charity, the priest (who chooses to allow hymns to be sung instead of propers) and the people who are following his direction in the liturgy, as well as any musicians who are playing hymns, which the priest has allowed instead of choosing the Propers option, deserve better behavior than just standing there stone-faced or frowning and not even bothering to crack open the hymnal to study the words that you have such objection to. That’s what children do–they do what they want to do regardless of other people. Grownups control their behavior and at least pretend that they are listening.

If you truly find a song “un-Catholic,” then have the courtesy to keep it to yourself during the actual singing of the hymn, and then AFTER MASS, tell the priest your concerns. If you are correct about the theology, then perhaps the offensive song can be removed from future Masses.

But to pick and choose which parts of the OF Mass you will participate in–that’s a Protestant approach to “church,” IMO.