can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[guanophore]

I think if we didn’t have a war going on with Muslim terrorists, there would be kinder words said about Muslims.
I know it’s unfair to lump all of them into one category like that but it’s human nature.

This is certainly true about human nature. But, every day we have been given the Grace to rise above it, and to love our enemies. It seems that a better example could be set in here. If we cannot love our enemies inside the Catholic Forum, how can we expect to love them when they do things purposefully to harm and kill us?

 

[Montalban]

You are missing the point. In the context of prejudice, any targeted group is considered a “race”. Therefore, hatred of Moslems, becuase they are Moslems, is racist. This perspecitve is also properly applied to those who “hate gays” as I heard one young man tell me yesterday. It is racist. But no one would say that gays are a “race” per se.

So if I am sexist, I’m a racist!

 

[Montalban]

This is certainly true about human nature. But, every day we have been given the Grace to rise above it, and to love our enemies. It seems that a better example could be set in here. If we cannot love our enemies inside the Catholic Forum, how can we expect to love them when they do things purposefully to harm and kill us?

You seem to think that the only way to love my enemies is to roll over and play dead when they kick me.

 

[Montalban]

There is a difference between hating people and hating the ideology that motivates them! All Muslim apologists make this mistake!

Vickie

Exactly. I don’t hate a gay person who has AIDS, but I hate AIDS that they carry. It would of course make me deal slightly different with them (in order to protect my own safety and those of whom I love) but I can do so with compassion for all.

 

[guanophore]

You seem to think that the only way to love my enemies is to roll over and play dead when they kick me.

Now, where did you get that?

 

[Montalban]

Now, where did you get that?

Well you think we’re upsetting people here.

 

[kellie]

You are missing the point. In the context of prejudice, any targeted group is considered a “race”. Therefore, hatred of Moslems, becuase they are Moslems, is racist. This perspecitve is also properly applied to those who “hate gays” as I heard one young man tell me yesterday. It is racist. But no one would say that gays are a “race” per se.

Being racist means being discriminative or prejudice about the race of a group pf people.

Race meaning a group of people belonging to the same stock.

What you are referring to is bigotry, that is treating a group of people with hatred and intolerance due to their religion, race, sexual orientation etc.

 

[Montalban]

Being racist means being discriminative or prejudice about the race of a group pf people.

Race meaning a group of people belonging to the same stock.

What you are referring to is bigotry, that is treating a group of people with hatred and intolerance due to their religion, race, sexual orientation etc.

Exactly.

However recently in Victoria the “Racial Vilification Legislation” was called upon in order to persecute a Protestant group “Catch the Fire Ministries” - they’d upset some Moslems.

 

[kellie]

Exactly.

However recently in Victoria the “Racial Vilification Legislation” was called upon in order to persecute a Protestant group “Catch the Fire Ministries” - they’d upset some Moslems.

It is most often quoted as the racial vilification act, but it is the “Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001 (Vic)”.

This is the Section used against the Catch the Fire Ministries.

***Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001 - SECT 8 ***

Religious vilification unlawful8. Religious vilification unlawful(1) A person must not, on the ground of the religious belief or activity ofanother person or class of persons, engage in conduct that incites hatredagainst, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that otherperson* or class of persons.*Note: “engage in conduct” includes use of the internet or e-mail to publish ortransmit statements or other material. austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/s8.html

 

[Montalban]

It is most often quoted as the racial vilification act, but it is the “Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001 (Vic)”.

This is the Section used against the Catch the Fire Ministries.

***Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001 - SECT 8 ***

Religious vilification unlawful8. Religious vilification unlawful(1) A person must not, on the ground of the religious belief or activity ofanother person or class of persons, engage in conduct that incites hatredagainst, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that otherperson* or class of persons.*Note: “engage in conduct” includes use of the internet or e-mail to publish ortransmit statements or other material. austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/s8.html

Ah. Thanks for the information.

You know that they were successfully prosecuted under that Act but have since won an appeal?

“religious belief or activity” means-

(a) holding or not holding a lawful religious belief or view;

(b) engaging in, not engaging in or refusing to engage in a lawful
religious activity;
austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/s3.html#religious_belief_or_activity

One can technically have an ‘unlawful’ religious belief.
Austlii’s a great site!

 

[kellie]

Ah. Thanks for the information.

You know that they were successfully prosecuted under that Act but have since won an appeal?

“religious belief or activity” means-

(a) holding or not holding a lawful religious belief or view;

(b) engaging in, not engaging in or refusing to engage in a lawful
religious activity;
austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/s3.html#religious_belief_or_activity

One can technically have an ‘unlawful’ religious belief.
Austlii’s a great site!

lol yeah

 

[guanophore]

Well you think we’re upsetting people here.

This is just a blantat and unsubstantiated assumption! I never said that. Furthermore, I don’t give plug nickel if people get upset over what they read in here. What matters to me is the spirit in which the things are written. It is possible to confront someone in love, and not hatefulness! If a person is confronted about their beliefs (including myself) and they don’t like it, they (we) can leave! But woe to that one who has not expressed himself in love, for instead of planting seeds of life, he has planted another thorny weed.

 

[guanophore]

Being racist means being discriminative or prejudice about the race of a group pf people.

Race meaning a group of people belonging to the same stock.

What you are referring to is bigotry, that is treating a group of people with hatred and intolerance due to their religion, race, sexual orientation etc.

I am willing to concede the point. Perhaps the training I had in tolerance was using the wrong language. What I am more concerned about is the spirit in which it occurs.

 

[meedo]

This is just a blantat and unsubstantiated assumption! I never said that. Furthermore, I don’t give plug nickel if people get upset over what they read in here. What matters to me is the spirit in which the things are written. It is possible to confront someone in love, and not hatefulness! If a person is confronted about their beliefs (including myself) and they don’t like it, they (we) can leave! But woe to that one who has not expressed himself in love, for instead of planting seeds of life, he has planted another thorny weed.

Very true. God bless you .

 

[Montalban]

This is just a blantat and unsubstantiated assumption! I never said that. Furthermore, I don’t give plug nickel if people get upset over what they read in here. What matters to me is the spirit in which the things are written. It is possible to confront someone in love, and not hatefulness! If a person is confronted about their beliefs (including myself) and they don’t like it, they (we) can leave! But woe to that one who has not expressed himself in love, for instead of planting seeds of life, he has planted another thorny weed.

How do you deal with evil, in terms of love?

For me, a proof of the pudding of your ‘stance’ is you’re getting kudos from Meedo.

When one criticises Islam it’s deemed automatically to be insulting.

 

[Booklover]

How do you deal with evil, in terms of love?

Exactly!

For me, a proof of the pudding of your ‘stance’ is you’re getting kudos from Meedo

How true!

When one criticises Islam it’s deemed automatically to be insulting.

Ditto!

I’ve posted these words by Bishop Sheen before, but here goes:

Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”, it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly."

Vickie.

 

[guanophore]

How do you deal with evil, in terms of love?

For me, a proof of the pudding of your ‘stance’ is you’re getting kudos from Meedo.

When one criticises Islam it’s deemed automatically to be insulting.

I guess you are saying that since Meedo is happy with me for speaking out against hostility, then I have a weak stance?

How do I deal with evil in terms of love. Here is a test I give myself:

1 Cor 13:4-7

Guanophore is patient and kind;
Guanophore is not jealous or boastful;
Guanophore is not arrogant or rude.
Guanophore does not insist on its own way;
Guanophore is not irritable or resentful;
Guanophore does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
Guanophore bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I believe also what was posted, that Love should become indignant over evil, and I have no problem turning over the tables and throwing stuff. However, since that part is easy for me, and the above part is not, then I am focusing on striving for those first, so that my indignation might be more righteous.
RSV

 

[hosemonkey]

Exactly!

How true!

Ditto!

I’ve posted these words by Bishop Sheen before, but here goes:

Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”, it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly."

Vickie.

I concur. The big problem is; if you “insult” moslems, they want to “love” you to death. So let’s “love” them right back. With charity, of course.

 

[Mr.Bee]

I have a couple of questions for everybody,

To the Muslims:
How exactly do you expect us (Christians / Americans…) to react to some of the events and threats? Are we supposed to, without question, accept your position that God likes you better?

To the Christians / Americans:
Why do you think Radical Islam hates our guts so much? Is it beacuse they’re jealous of us? Or is it because we act like arrogant jerks?

I have my own answers to these questions, but I want to see some of yours first.

 

[heathernoel]

I will not apologize for ‘the way we act’. It’s not ethnocentric, IMHO, to be wary of Muslims because of all the reasons already laid out. I had reason to mistrust them before 9/11. Now, I have 3k more.

I don’t believe we are arrogant. I don’t see them apologizing for treating women as second class citizens, killing ‘infidels’, or any other of the myriad of crimes committed in the name of ‘Allah’.

You have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything.

Just my opinion