Can we please talk about Eucharistic Adoration again...civilly?

[Isaac14]

I found the Eastern idea of “keeping mysteries hidden” to be interesting. I read somewhere that sometimes the Eucharist might be enclosed in a “diskos”

A diskos is plate on which the Eucharistic bread is placed - see here for a picture. Within the Wikipedia article, there are also links to the “asterisk” and “aer” which are liturgical items used as well. These items do combine to conceal the bread and wine, both before and after consecration. This of course happens in every Divine Liturgy. I’ve no knowledge of this being done outside of Liturgy.

 

[babochka]

So, to get back on topic…
I found the Eastern idea of “keeping mysteries hidden” to be interesting. I read somewhere that sometimes the Eucharist might be enclosed in a “diskos” (not transparent but opaque) and placed on the altar. Under what circumstances might this be done and what is the purpose?

Again, not questioning the practice, just want to understand it.

I have also read that such a practice exists, but I have never seen that done and my priest is also unfamiliar with the practice. We do, of course, keep Holy Communion reserved for the sick and it is kept in a Tabernacle on the altar. It is treated with the reverence due the body and blood of Christ. In our Lenten Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the prayers and actions of the priest and faithful are unmistakable - that we know that we are not approaching simple bread, but the body and blood of Christ.

Perhaps it is an unsatisfying answer that lacks depth, but article 7 of the Union of Brest addresses this issue: “That we should not be compelled to take part in processions on the day of Corpus Christi—that we should not have to make such processions with our Mysteries inasmuch as our use of the Mysteries is different.” I think it simply comes down to that. We are just different and for a variety of reasons approach this differently.

In answer to the second part of your question , I don’t know if there’s any particular practice that substitutes for what one gets from adoration . I go to adoration sometimes. I appreciate peaceful atmosphere of the chapel in the parish near me and I benefit from having made a commitment to spend that time with Jesus, without distractions. I don’t know that having the host exposed helps me in any particular way, vs knowing that he is in the Tabernacle, but I pray better in a quiet Church with a Tabernacle. The flickering light of the sanctuary lamp brings me peace and comfort. I’m not entirely comfortable with the Adoration Chapel with host exposed because I don’t know all the etiquette - genuflect on one knee or two, etc. Honestly, I think that I am considerably more comfortable with Jesus in the Tabernacle than exposed. I don’t know if that’s an Eastern thing or just me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If it makes you feel any better, most Latin OF parishes don’t do Corpus Christi processions any more either. You pretty much need to find either a traditionalist FSSP type Mass or else a parish where the priest is really into the idea of a Corpus Christi procession to be part of one of those. I wasn’t even aware they did those on the Feast of Corpus Christi until a couple years ago when I went to a traditional Latin Mass with the procession. The following year, sort of by accident, I discovered a procession at an OF church, but they are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[babochka]

If it makes you feel any better, most Latin OF parishes don’t do Corpus Christi processions any more either. You pretty much need to find either a traditionalist FSSP type Mass or else a parish where the priest is really into the idea of a Corpus Christi procession to be part of one of those. I wasn’t even aware they did those on the Feast of Corpus Christi until a couple years ago when I went to a traditional Latin Mass with the procession. The following year, sort of by accident, I discovered a procession at an OF church, but they are the exceptions, not the rule.

A couple of parishes around here have tried to revive them. I think they are probably more common in Europe, especially in ostensibly Catholic countries.

I think at the time of the Union of Brest they were much more common. Having a procession with the host seems very much to me the same as exposing the host for the purpose of adoration and that is why I saw a parallel there.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The one big benefit I see to doing Eucharistic processions is that it shows we’re (“we” being us Latins) not afraid of our Catholic practice. My impression over several of the post-Vatican II decades was that Latin priests in USA often thought of Adoration or Eucharistic processions as just some more of those weird creaky old devotions that were no longer relevant, looked “out of touch” (the Eucharist in a big gold monstrance would cause everyone to say, “Money spent on such trappings could be given to the poor instead”) and weren’t likely to attract Protestant converts. Instead we were all supposed to go on a protest march (perhaps even make it ecumenical and invite the Protestants) and sing Kumbaya.

I realize the Eastern Church’s reasons for not doing it are completely different and not dismissive. But if you see Latin Catholics today, especially traditionalists, emphasizing such activities as processions, it’s to some degree a reaction against post-Vatican II ideas.

 

[dochawk]

My own hypothesis, based on nothing other than my very limited knowledge is to have a suspicion that the East’s much much stronger theology of the Icon plays into this. One thing I was taught is that the saint depicted in the image is really and truly present to us through the image. Applying that to Christ, He is fully present in His icon

I think this is a major factor. Statutes and paintings are religious art, while icons are prayers which we seek to join, which is why they are reverenced in a way that statutes and paintings are not. Icons are a “window” to the Divine.

So a fair way of phrasing the underlying question might be, “Why don’t latin catholics display and reverence icons?”

It’s not exactly easy to prepare a loaf of prosphora to be dried out (or whatever needs to be done to preserve a large enough piece for adoration) so that mold doesn’t become a problem.

I’ve been told that the use of hair driers and heat lamps on that set aside for presanctified liturgies in Great Lent is quite common . . . at least in my climate, where double digit humidity does’t usually occur that time of year, they are just about petrified by Tuesday without such intervention . . .

I’m Maronite and I’ve never done it nor seen it done in my church, but if it happens it’s probably a Latinization.

No “probably” there . . .

I just want to understand why not.

In all seriousness, though, the form of the question shifts the burden to the East to explain “why not”, where the “burden of proof” should be “why” and upon the West.

How would you react too, “Why don’t Western Christians reverence Icons?” or “Why don’t Western Christians sing Akathists to the Theotokos during their liturgy?”–to both of which, “why would we?” would be a fair response. [ok, almost—I’m not clear how universal reverence of Icons was, but think it used to exist in the West).

that had incorporated Eucharistic Adoration into their practice. The decision was apparently controversial as many Eastern Catholics saw it as a big Westernization,

There is very serious issue that when Eastern parishes do adopt a western practice, that it tends to displace an eastern one. For example, the Rosary before liturgy sets aside Third Hour before liturgy, and so forth.

Within the Wikipedia article, there are also links to the “asterisk” and “aer” which are liturgical items used as well.

The historic background of these was . . . to keep flies out. Other explanations came later. (and the Eastern Iconostasis and Latin Communion Rail and Rood grew from . . . a barrier to keep animals out of the Holy Place, as the poor couldn’t risk leaving them at home! . . . there are plenty of these . . .)

 

[RealisticCatholic]

As to Eucharistic Adoration being a medieval practice, note that Eucharistic Adoration is implicit in the faith and practice of the early Church, since (1) the early, apostolic church believed in the Real Presence of Christ and (2) reserved the Eucharist even after liturgy.

The early Christians didn’t go by the belief of some Protestants, that the “real presence” only occurs during communion. No, it is a lasting, substantial change. So reserved Eucharist must still be regarded as Christ! —even it is not only “eaten” right away, as a poster above asserted to be following Jesus’ command.

Such goes the concrete practices of all traditions. For example, veneration of icons as it is now in the Christian East was not from the apostolic church, even it was implicit then.It certainly was not as central a devotion or central to the liturgy at first, either.

We can even talk about the sacramental mysteries themselves. Certain rituals only implicit in the apostolic faith were carried out later on, like how Confession was implicit in the Eucharist, and how Confession evolved in ritual over time.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In all seriousness, though, the form of the question shifts the burden to the East to explain “why not”, where the “burden of proof” should be “why” and upon the West.

How would you react too, “Why don’t Western Christians reverence Icons?” or “Why don’t Western Christians sing Akathists to the Theotokos during their liturgy?”–to both of which, “why would we?”

That’s not how I would react. Why do you think I would react that way?

I’d say, “I don’t reverence icons because I wasn’t taught to do it from not growing up in that culture. If someone would explain to me about reverencing icons, maybe I would do so because there are some icons I really like. And what’s an Akathist and is there a recording of it being sung? If it’s a Mary prayer I wouldn’t mind doing it during our Liturgy but I don’t get a choice in the matter.”

I’m not coming at this from some standpoint of “West Good, East Bad” (or vice versa). I really just don’t know jack about stuff and would like someone to tell me. When Spyridon was on here I remember a thread about hesychasm and I looked it up and thought it was really a neat idea. I have looked up other Eastern concepts too. The only time I reacted badly to an Eastern concept was when someone brought up “Deification” which I had the usual knee-jerk response to because I never heard of it till then.

I am sorry that other people have bias, but you have several people in the threads I started saying positive things and that they would like to learn about all these things. You have people starting icon threads also where we can post our favorites and talk and learn about them. I tried to watch that Andrei Rublev movie once but got put off by the cow getting set on fire. (Although I read later they put an asbestos blanket on the cow but the horse fell down the stairs for real or some such rot.)

Not everybody’s a jerk, that’s all…it might be better to give people the benefit of the doubt that they just don’t know something/ were never exposed to it so that’s why they’re asking questions. Which is what this forum is supposed to be for. Not for one side or the other to have to defend their practices. I spend all day trying not to put the smack down on the endless non-Catholics who ask stuff like, “Why do you say this prayer to Mary? That’s weird. I don’t like the prayer. Why don’t you pray the way I like instead?” I certainly would never pose a question like that to any other religion, even one of the Protestant religions where that sort of sentence is exactly what goes through my head when they do some of their schtick.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

So a fair way of phrasing the underlying question might be, “Why don’t latin catholics display and reverence icons?”

Quite a few do. I have icons in my home and we have several at my parish. Our parish is also sometimes used for Divine Liturgy, so that might have something to do with it. We are quite closely connected with our Eastern brethren in my neck of the woods.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, I display some icons and I know quite a few Latin Catholics who have at least one icon in their home though they usually aren’t aware of the big significance of them to Eastern Catholics.

Our Mother of Perpetual Help, Our Lady of Czestochowa, any other Mary with Baby Jesus icons, and Christ Pantocrator are all popular with Latin Catholics. Christ Pantocrator is in a lot of Roman Catholic churches.

 

[dochawk]

I’d say, “I don’t reverence icons because I wasn’t taught to do it from not growing up in that culture"

And that would be a full and complete answer to your question about adoration . . .

And what’s an Akathist and is there a recording of it being sung?

A hymn of praise. I tried to google some for you, but I’m not getting sound through the connection I’m on for some odd reason.

On days it is prescribed, we typically split it between the Saturday evening and Sunday liturgies, with one taking the odd and the other the even verses. It’s not nearly as short as the Rosary

I’m not coming at this from some standpoint of “West Good, East Bad” (or vice versa).

I understand that you are not, but please understand the that is usually the context of the questions, and frequently as part of an intent to “fix” or “convert” us. It’s even happened in threads like this one, well after the initial question. Even as I type, I worry that the “usual suspects” will fully hijack this thread asymoemnt . . .

Quite a few do.

Yes–and many Easterns do go to Eucharistic Adoration (typically at latin parishes) or the Rosary.

There is not a problem with observing and participating in practices of “the other”. The problem, and more so for Easterns (due to the smaller populations) is the displacement of the native practices. As much as I, for example, prefer an Akathist, it would be horrible for a latin parish to drop the rosary too make room for it!

hawk, who hears “Hail o maiden, ever pure” echoing thorough his head all week after an Akathist . . .

 

[Salibi]

No “probably” there . . .

Indeed.

Ten characters.

 

[angel12]

No, I simply asked why people are questioning the practices of the Eastern Churches.

There’s a difference between question their practices and asking questions about their practices. Which, clearly, is all that the OP did.

 

[dvdjs]

Exactly. And as already mentioned, Eastern Christians go by what Jesus commanded, i.e., to eat and drink the Eucharist, but not to worship the Eucharist.

Jesus never commanded anyone not to worship the Eucharist.
Have you been to the liturgy of the pre-sanctified gifts?
Do you not fully prostrate yourself as the consecrated gifts are brought out at the great entrance?

 

[dvdjs]

Whatever the concern over Latin Eucharistic devotions at the time of Brest, there was a practice that developed in the old country and was brought here. It is still done in the old country, but not so much here anymore, to my great regret.

Here are two links to partial recordings:

PINIJE VSEUMILITEĽNOJE.

Svjatyj Bože, svjatyj kripkij,
svjatyj bezsmertnyj pomiluj nas.
3-raz.

Ot povitrija, hlada ohňa i
vojny, izbavi nas Hospodi. 3.

Ot nahlyja i nespoďivannyja
smerti, sochrani nas Hospodi. 3.

My hrišnii tebe Boha prosim,
uslyší nas Hospodi.

My hrišnii tebe Boha prosim,
prostí nam Hospodi.

My hrišnii tebe Boha prosim,
pomiluj nas Hospodi.

O Isuse, o Isuse, o Isuse,
Syne Boha živaho, umiloserdisja
nad nami.

O Marije, o Marije, o Marije,
Mati Božaja, pričinisja za nami.

O svjatyj (chrama im ja) moli
Boha o nas hrišňych.

Po sem svjasčennik beret Pre-
svjatii Tajný vo rukí, obertajetsja ko
ľuďam i spivajet:

Spasí ľudi tvoja, Hospodi. 2.
Spasi ľudi tvoja, Hospodi, i
blahoslovi dostojanije tvoje.

Národ za tretým razom spivajet:

I ispravi ja, i voznesi ja vo
viki. Vo vsja dni blahoslovim
tebe, voschvalint imja tvoje vo
viki i vo vik vika. Spodobí Ho-
spodi, vo deň (večer) sej bez
hricha sochranitisja nam. Umilo-
serdisja nad nami, Hospodi, umi-
loserdisja nad nami: Da budet
miloserdije tvoje, Hospodi, nad
nami, jakože upovachom na ťa.
Na ťa, Hospodi, upovachom, da
ne postyďimsja vo viki. Amiň.

At Spasí ľudi Tvoja, the veiled chalice with the consecrated gifts is raised, blessing the people just as in the Divine Liturgy. Then it is placed on the altar and incensed, while people make prostrations and chant the final hymn is chanted. The words are familiar parts of Constantinopolitan liturgies and also comprise the added the ending of the Te Deum (for which Dmitri Bortniansky (1751-1825 ) wrote a setting popular in Eastern circles).

O Lord, save thy people : and bless thine inheritance.

Govern them : and lift them up for ever.
Day by day : we magnify thee;
And we worship thy Name : ever world without end.
Vouchsafe, O Lord : to keep us this day without sin.
O Lord, have mercy upon us : have mercy upon us.
O Lord, let thy mercy lighten upon us : as our trust is in thee.
O Lord, in thee have I trusted : let me never be confounded.

 

[AlNg]

Jesus never commanded anyone not to worship the Eucharist.

True. But AFAIK, some Eastern Christians say that He did not command us to worship the Eucharist. AFAIK Eastern Christians say that they go by what Jesus commanded, i.e., to eat and drink the Eucharist.

 

[dvdjs]

some Eastern Christians say that He did not command us to worship the Eucharist.

Some may say this, but is it a thought that is worth repeating?
Tell me, btw: who, exactly, did Jesus command us to worship?

 

[AlNg]

Some may say this, but is it a thought that is worth repeating?

The question was why don’t Eastern Orthodox have Eucharistic adoration.

 

[dvdjs]

The question was why don’t Eastern Orthodox have Eucharistic adoration.

And the correct asweris that they do.
They do not for the most part, however, have special services in which the gifts are venerated but not consumed. And the reason for that is that they had established many other services and had no impetus to create an additional one for this specific purpose. In the case of some Eastern Catholic Churches, such services did develop.

 

[AlNg]

And the correct asweris that they do.

You say that the Orthodox do have Eucharistic Adoration?
How do you explain what Russian Orthodox theologian, Alexander Schmemann, stated: “The Purpose of the Eucharist lies not in the change of the bread and wine, but in the partaking of Christ, who has become our food, our life, the manifestation of the Church as the body of Christ. This is why the gifts themselves never became in the Orthodox East an object of special reverence, contemplation, and adoration,…”
Bishop Kallistos Ware:
“Orthodox, however, do not hold services of public devotion before the reserved sacrament, nor do they have any equivalent to the Roman Catholic functions of Exposition and Benediction,…”
(The Orthodox Church, p. 292)