Can We Put this Myth to Rest: EF vs EMHC?

[TheMc]

That is not the point. The point is that it is incorrect and insulting to say that some at CAF are refusing to obey Rome because they point out that the matter is under study.

But it is true to point out that some on CAF are refusing to obey, by pointing out it’s under study, then using that as an excuse to tell everyone they will continue to give blessings. I’ve seen it many times.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

That is wrong. The EF was never abrogated (in theory) and the Pope, Benedict XVI, said that it never will be abrogated. As TheMC has shown above, the way the term ‘Extra-ordinary’ is used in reference to the Traditional Latin Mass is different to the way it is used when referring to Extra-ordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

How do you believe that it is different?

 

[zab]

But it is true to point out that some on CAF are refusing to obey, by pointing out it’s under study, then using that as an excuse to tell everyone they will continue to give blessings. I’ve seen it many times.

Saying “God bless you” when approached by a non-Communicant is not giving a blessing. I believe that you may be twisting what some are saying by making it sound like they are giving blessings based on their own reasoning. If they are doing what they have been instructed to do, then they are obeying their pastor until he has been directed to stop such practice. They are not acting in disobedience.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Saying “God bless you” when approached by a non-Communicant is not giving a blessing. I believe that you may be twisting what some are saying by making it sound like they are giving blessings based on their own reasoning. If they are doing what they have been instructed to do, then they are obeying their pastor until he has been directed to stop such practice. They are not acting in disobedience.

True, it might not be the same thing, but it does create completely unnecessary confusion nonetheless.

 

[markomalley]

Saying “God bless you” when approached by a non-Communicant is not giving a blessing. I believe that you may be twisting what some are saying by making it sound like they are giving blessings based on their own reasoning. If they are doing what they have been instructed to do, then they are obeying their pastor until he has been directed to stop such practice. They are not acting in disobedience.

That’s not what is happening.

You will have some who trace a sign of the cross on the individual’s forehead. Some who will make the sign of the cross toward the person. Some who will take a host and make a sign of the cross with the host in front of the person. And so on.

It is not a matter of “God Bless You.”

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

The existence of EMHCs (should not) be offensive to anybody (except the most radical traditionalist). The function is clearly called for, on an extraordinary basis,

I think what offends people are abuses that are typically associated with EMHCs.

For example (not an exhaustive list):

• In many places, they are referred to as “eucharistic ministers”. They are not “eucharistic ministers”, they are not “extraordinary eucharistic ministers”, they are “extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion”. There is a difference.
• In many places, they are used at the exclusion of ordinary ministers far too often. For example, in my parish, there are three priests and four permanent deacons. Our sanctuary holds about 500 people We have six masses per weekend, four of which are on Sunday morning. On a typical basis, there is no great need to use EMHCs, with the possible exception of the vigil Mass and the Sunday evening Mass. Four out of the seven ordinary ministers could perform the function with no problems. But EMHCs are used. Every Mass. On weekday Masses, they use two EMHCs (for a total number of less than 50 communicants). If this does not qualify as “habitual use”, I don’t know what does. I list my parish as typical, but I see that as the norm, in virtually every place where I attend Mass.
• Far too often EMHCs are in the habit of giving “blessings” to people in a communion line (for example, blessing infants and children who accompany parents who are receiving communion). To the best of my knowledge, that is a massive no-no. (Can 1169 & Ecclesia de Mysterio Art 6 § 2)

Again, most people I communicate with do not have something against EMHCs in of themselves, rather, they have something against abuses.

I am curious though…on Sunday you could not have all of the ordinary ministers at every service. In our diocese there is a limit (2) on the number of Masses that Fr. can celebrate in a given day…as it is he has to get special permission from the Bishop to say the Spanish Mass. So you might still have some need for EMHC’s but maybe not as many.

Interesting note: up at the Abbey when I go there we get a troop of ordinary ministers…two for the body and 6 for the blood. Even up there they are aware of the length of time it might take.

 

[TheMc]

Saying “God bless you” when approached by a non-Communicant is not giving a blessing. I believe that you may be twisting what some are saying by making it sound like they are giving blessings based on their own reasoning. If they are doing what they have been instructed to do, then they are obeying their pastor until he has been directed to stop such practice. They are not acting in disobedience.

And saying “God bless you” is not always what happens. In my area, it usually includes a blessing, and a hand on the forehead, all of which are not allowed.

 

[YoungTradCath]

That’s not what is happening.

You will have some who trace a sign of the cross on the individual’s forehead. Some who will make the sign of the cross toward the person. **Some who will take a host and make a sign of the cross with the host in front of the person. And so on.
**
It is not a matter of “God Bless You.”

Which is definitely super wrong, as that is Benediction itself.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Saying “God bless you” when approached by a non-Communicant is not giving a blessing. I believe that you may be twisting what some are saying by making it sound like they are giving blessings based on their own reasoning. If they are doing what they have been instructed to do, then they are obeying their pastor until he has been directed to stop such practice. They are not acting in disobedience.

or May the Lord Guide you… What are you supposed to do-have an argument in the communion line? I am very careful not to use my hands for the blessing nor have I seen anyone else do that.

 

[zab]

That’s not what is happening.

You will have some who trace a sign of the cross on the individual’s forehead. Some who will make the sign of the cross toward the person. Some who will take a host and make a sign of the cross with the host in front of the person. And so on.

It is not a matter of “God Bless You.”

Believe me, “God Bless You” has been a big problem on CAF.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I would like to see only male altar servers, male EMHCs (when needed!) and male lectors. And heck, since I’m going to get it for this comment anyway, I prefer male cantors as well.

However we want to pray and work to increase vocations, that is all well and good.

But no one can argue that having up to 15 women/girls on the altar during a single Mass, as it is in my parish, encourages vocations to the priesthood. It is a fact that as women become predominant in a field or an activity, men become less attracted to it.

Here we go…it’s all the women’s faultuch:uch: Give me a break! Again it is simple reality in some parishes…go to daily Mass…mostly women. Heck Fr has a hard enough time once a week finding a male there to help with Benediction.

Leaving altar servers out of it…I did not realize that the adult male was so terrified of women that he would not participate if there are women helping… Really is that who we want in the priesthood?

Don’t blame us because there are not enough men stepping up!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

That’s not what is happening.
You will have some who trace a sign of the cross on the individual’s forehead. Some who will make the sign of the cross toward the person. Some who will take a host and make a sign of the cross with the host in front of the person. And so on.

It is not a matter of “God Bless You.”

These things may be happening in your parish, but they aren’t happening everywhere. You should approach your pastor, in charity, and ask why they EMHCs do this. Explain that you find it confusing and see what his reasoning is. Only after he has explained would I say anything about church rules, documents from the vatican etc. And even then I would not be accusatory or demanding. If he is working with the EMHCs to change their behaviors, he does not need to explain anything about that to you.

If you are not communing, do not go up. If others in your group (family, friends, etc.) are not receiving, ask them not to go up either. We cannot force others to change, but we can make sure we aren’t adding to the problem.

 

[markomalley]

I am curious though…on Sunday you could not have all of the ordinary ministers at every service. In our diocese there is a limit (2) on the number of Masses that Fr. can celebrate in a given day…as it is he has to get special permission from the Bishop to say the Spanish Mass. So you might still have some need for EMHC’s but maybe not as many.

Interesting note: up at the Abbey when I go there we get a troop of ordinary ministers…two for the body and 6 for the blood. Even up there they are aware of the length of time it might take.

Actually, there is a canonical limitation on the number of Masses that can be celebrated. Can 905 covers it for priests (1x/day, but 2x or even 3x on Sundays if there is a shortatge of priests) and Can 917 covers reception of communion more than once per day.

What I’ve seen done is for an ordinary minister to put on an alb and stole and come out to distribute communion…and then return to the sacristy once communion is done. Total time commitment: 15 minutes. And it does not violate the canonical limitations.

 

[markomalley]

These things may be happening in your parish, but they aren’t happening everywhere. You should approach your pastor, in charity, and ask why they EMHCs do this. Explain that you find it confusing and see what his reasoning is. Only after he has explained would I say anything about church rules, documents from the vatican etc. And even then I would not be accusatory or demanding. If he is working with the EMHCs to change their behaviors, he does not need to explain anything about that to you.

If you are not communing, do not go up. If others in your group (family, friends, etc.) are not receiving, ask them not to go up either. We cannot force others to change, but we can make sure we aren’t adding to the problem.

It is not happening just in my parish or just within my diocese. It happens frequently (I have to travel a lot for my job and see this often in various parts of the country when I happen to be on travel on a Day of Obligation, to include Sundays)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

But no one can argue that having up to 15 women/girls on the altar during a single Mass, as it is in my parish, encourages vocations to the priesthood. It is a fact that as women become predominant in a field or an activity, men become less attracted to it.

15 at a single Mass? Really?

However likely that is, I really hope that devout women who are serving as they are called, can run a man off from his vocation.

Traditionally there have always been more women at Mass and active in a parish then men. Even back in the misty past, a daily Mass wih only women and perhaps a few older men in attendance didn’t deter vocations. It is much more likely that young men don’t want to give up “freedom”, family life or money and not that a few women blocked his vocation with their “womenvibes”.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It is not happening just in my parish or just within my diocese. It happens frequently (I have to travel a lot for my job and see this often in various parts of the country when I happen to be on travel on a Day of Obligation, to include Sundays)

I have also attended Masses in many different cities and only seen this very infrequently. Perhaps I’m just not paying enough attention to what’s going on around me during communion.

 

[TheMc]

I am curious though…on Sunday you could not have all of the ordinary ministers at every service. In our diocese there is a limit (2) on the number of Masses that Fr. can celebrate in a given day…as it is he has to get special permission from the Bishop to say the Spanish Mass. So you might still have some need for EMHC’s but maybe not as many.

Interesting note: up at the Abbey when I go there we get a troop of ordinary ministers…two for the body and 6 for the blood. Even up there they are aware of the length of time it might take.

Here’s the catch: you don’t need to concelebrate to distribute communion. Walk in wearing choir dress during the agnus dei. That’s what those speakers in some old rectories are for. They would know when to come over and help.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Here’s the catch: you don’t need to concelebrate to distribute communion. Walk in wearing choir dress during the agnus dei. That’s what those speakers in some old rectories are for. They would know when to come over and help.

This is what happens at my parish. However, even if all available ordinary ministers are there, the size of the parish, and attendance at Mass, is such that we still use a few EMHCs at every Sunday Mass.

I was at noon Mass today, which I was able to attend regularly in the past. There are easily 150 people there on an average day. That is the size of the congregation on a Sunday in some parishes. At a parish like that the priest and a deacon, or the priest alone should be able to handle communion. Not so in a larger parish.

 

[markomalley]

This is what happens at my parish. However, even if all available ordinary ministers are there, the size of the parish, and attendance at Mass, is such that we still use a few EMHCs at every Sunday Mass.

I was at noon Mass today, which I was able to attend regularly in the past. There are easily 150 people there on an average day. That is the size of the congregation on a Sunday in some parishes. At a parish like that the priest and a deacon, or the priest alone should be able to handle communion. Not so in a larger parish.

One (slightly snarky) question:

How bad are the confession lines on Saturday?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

One (slightly snarky) question:

How bad are the confession lines on Saturday?

We have scheduled confession 3 times a week. Per my advice on a different thread, I try to arrive at the beginning of the scheduled time, so I don’t know how long the lines end up being, but during the time I am there, there is always a brisk business going on.

During advent, there were many additional confession times and lots of encouragement from the priests to take advantage of that fact.

We are very blessed in this parish and diocese.