Can We Put this Myth to Rest: EF vs EMHC?

[YoungTradCath]

So maybe don’t allow families with less than three kids up to the altar?

What do you mean, let them up to the altar?

 

[triumphguy]

I’m using the Reductio ad absurdum form of argument.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Study after study and survey after survey shows a great percentage of Catholics are a-ok with ABC. Surely you know what I’m talking about.

So you are going with study after study…rather than your fellow brothers and sisters? You CAN’T know that they are in mortal sin.

I am sure you would probably judge me without kids as being one of them…what you would not know is that I thought ABC was ok when I was a Protestant…and then when I came back to the Church and discovered the truth…I confessed it…and it’s done. It’s insulting for you to sit there and judge other people when you have no idea of the circumstances or their heart

 

[YoungTradCath]

So you are going with study after study…rather than your fellow brothers and sisters? You CAN’T know that they are in mortal sin.

I am sure you would probably judge me without kids as being one of them…what you would not know is that I thought ABC was ok when I was a Protestant…and then when I came back to the Church and discovered the truth…I confessed it…and it’s done. It’s insulting for you to sit there and judge other people when you have no idea of the circumstances or their heart

I don’t understand what the bolded means at all, but I agree otherwise. But I don’t understand how you can judge somebody unless you have someone specific in mind.

It may not be healthy to assume that everybody’s sinning more and more in a very specific sense, as in John Malcolm Xavier of Somwhere, North Dakota, whoever that is, is sinning rampantly. I agree.

 

[petrel]

You can’t argue with what numbers?

How do you know that “a great number” of Catholics are committing grave sins? Granted, they may well be. But how do you know that well enough to accuse them? And you are also directly accusing them of greater sin, profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord. Serious accusations…where are your facts? Or are they guesses?

What grave sins? If you know they are committing grave sins, you must know what specific sins. Who, how many? Be precise.

To judge any specific individual without knowing the specifics of the situation would be very wrong. Please don’t tempt GwenL into doing something that is quite wrong. However it is a simple matter of discernment. It is an objective fact that 1. Large numbers of Catholic are habitually committing the mortal sin of ABC. 2. Virtually 100% of Catholics at any given mass receive communion. 3. The confessional gathers dust and a tiny fraction of Catholics make use of it even once per year.

For too long the bishops have buried their heads in the sand on this issue and have allowed the sacriledge of the Lord’s body and blood to go unchecked. We should cry out for the exercising of ecclesiastical authority because if the church will not judge her people then surely we will all fall into the hands of the Living God. Judgement begins with the house of God.

And for whoever thinks that I am being unkind and uncharitable I would like to point out that these notions which I have presented are straight out of the scriptures.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God?

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

 

[petrel]

So instead of EMHCs we have the ushers asking those in line if they are in a state of grace, and kicking them out of the communion line if they are not?

Of course, as you are indicating, that is absurd, and I never suggested that. I gave a remedy.

1. Ban EMHC’s
2. Allow long queues out the door and up the street.
3. Passengers of the Catholic faith will get out of the queue because they don’t want to be bothered waiting.
4. Have some sermons which alert people that sacriledge of the Lord’s body and blood leads to hell fire.
5. Have some sermons to alert people that ABC is mortal sin and that those who take of the body and blood of Christ are committing sacriledge if they practice ABC.
6. Have some sermons to alert people that if they have practiced ABC, premarital sex, or any other mortal sin that they must receive the sacrament of penance before receiving the body and blood of Christ.
7. Bring back the fast before the mass. Therefore people have a choice; breakfast or receiving communion. Alert people that if they do not observe the fast that they are committing sacriledge.

In fact the lenient reduction of the fast to a mere one hour is utterly ruinous of the faith. This unnecessary “minimum requirement” was put into enable more people to receive more often.

What is better? That the people fast before receiving communion or that we turn the sanctuary into a circus of EMHC’s. Point seven alone would cut the queues by 1/10th because not one catholic in ten would forgoe breakfast in order to receive Holy Communion. Showing how cheaply the great bulk of Catholics view the most precious object on all the earth.

I understand that the church at Vatican 2 was addressing a situation where the faithful had very little participation with the elements of the Eucharist. It was seen by them as something priests do. The church in her wisdom wished to make the Holy Communion more accessible to the people. Sadly though, as is often the case, the pendulum swang too far in the opposite direction. The need for EMHC’s is a clear signal that the pendulum has swung too far and it simply cries out that a bit of management on the part of the diocesan bishops is called for.

Surely we don’t need an ecumenical council everytime we want to change the direction of the pendulum.

 

[petrel]

And for whoever thinks that I am being unkind and uncharitable I would like to point out that these notions which I have presented are straight out of the scriptures.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God?

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

And I forgot to put in this one.

1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

The use of the word judgement hear denotes sentencing and condemnation in the greek although the use of the word damnation in some translations is overly harsh I admit. But sentencing, judgement and condemnation is certainly fearful enough and should cause all of us to think twice before approaching the body of the Lord.

 

[ProVobis]

Really? You know that there are a great number of Catholics committing mortal sin every week without going to confession?

Prior to the 60’s many Catholics wouldn’t go to communion unless they had gone to confession first, sins or no sins. However, there were people, like the nuns, who kept insisting it wasn’t necessary to go to confession beforehand, that there was no excuse not to go to communion. Yet, I had one of these nuns who kept telling the boys that putting our hands in our pockets was a mortal sin. Go figure.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Prior to the 60’s many Catholics wouldn’t go to communion unless they had gone to confession first, sins or no sins. However, there were people, like the nuns, who kept insisting it wasn’t necessary to go to confession beforehand, that there was no excuse not to go to communion. Yet, I had one of these nuns who kept telling the boys that putting our hands in our pockets was a mortal sin. Go figure.

Are you serious!?

 

[ProVobis]

1. Virtually 100% of Catholics at any given mass receive communion.

This seems to be the case with the English Masses. You’ll probably see a sizeable few in Polish or Spanish Masses who will refrain from communion. In fact, I hear in some hispanic communities married couples will skip communion after they’ve had sex.

 

[ProVobis]

Are you serious!?

Yes. Don’t forget at the time of Trent, hardly anyone received. In fact, Trent encouraged the use of spiritual communion often and then later the Church required all Catholics to receive sacramentally once a year, something we still have in Canon Law. Then the communion fast was cut to three hours before communion (it had been midnight) so there would be more communicants at the later Masses. And then in the 60’s the fast was almost completely curtailed and now most, if not all, receive.

 

[GwenL]

Study after study and survey after survey shows a great percentage of Catholics are a-ok with ABC. Surely you know what I’m talking about.

“Being a-ok with ABC” is not necessarily committing a mortal sin.

You do know that there are three requirements for a sin to be mortal?

I teach CCD to teenagers. I teach that contraception (not ABC in and of itself) is a grave evil. But the majority of these kids did not know that. Why? Their parents did not teach them. Why? They were not taught that. I would guess that a majority of Catholics still do not know that contraception is an objective evil. We are reaping the fruits of this evil culture, combined with the total lack of catechesis of an entire generation.

Second, being a-ok with ABC is a different matter than actually using it.

You are assuming consent of the will to commit what one knows is a grave sin when you don’t know those things for a fact. That is really a lack of charity, isn’t it? Especially when you extrapolate to a statement such as “a great number of Catholics are committing mortal sin.” You have, by your self, judged this great number.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Yes. Don’t forget at the time of Trent, hardly anyone received. In fact, Trent encouraged the use of spiritual communion often and then later the Church required all Catholics to receive sacramentally once a year, something we still have in Canon Law. Then the communion fast was cut to three hours before communion (it had been midnight) so there would be more communicants at the later Masses. And then in the 60’s the fast was almost completely curtailed and now most, if not all, receive.

Interesting, however I was directing my comment toward the nun and hands in pockets!

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting, however I was directing my comment toward the nun and hands in pockets!

It actually happened in the 6th grade when we were walking in rank from the school to the church. As it was a cold day, the very strict nun noticed many of the boys were putting their hands in their pockets. I guess she disapproved so she called it a mortal sin, probably not realizing the full effect it would have on us later. (No one joked about it during our 50th yr class reunion last year.)

 

[ProVobis]

I teach CCD to teenagers. I teach that contraception (not ABC in and of itself) is a grave evil. But the majority of these kids did not know that. Why? Their parents did not teach them. Why? They were not taught that. I would guess that a majority of Catholics still do not know that contraception is an objective evil. We are reaping the fruits of this evil culture, combined with the total lack of catechesis of an entire generation.

Interesting but at what point would you say that the act (or thought or omission) should be known to be grounds for mortal sin in today’s climate? Ten people can tell someone it’s a mortal sin to steal a sizeable amount of money but if he sees everyone else doing it, he probably doesn’t think it’s grave. So given enough of such evil around us, there would be no such thing as mortal sin and everyone should be receiving. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[thomas_jd]

It actually happened in the 6th grade when we were walking in rank from the school to the church. As it was a cold day, the very strict nun noticed many of the boys were putting their hands in their pockets. I guess she disapproved so she called it a mortal sin, probably not realizing the full effect it would have on us later. (No one joked about it during our 50th yr class reunion last year.)

Many teaching sisters were given insufficent training in that time period.
Much the same as the religion teachers of today in both religious ed. and schools.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Interesting but at what point would you say that the act (or thought or omission) should be known to be grounds for mortal sin in today’s climate? Ten people can tell someone it’s a mortal sin to steal a sizeable amount of money but if he sees everyone else doing it, he probably doesn’t think it’s grave. So given enough of such evil around us, there would be no such thing as mortal sin and everyone should be receiving. Is that what you’re saying?

I have the same questions as you.

 

[GwenL]

Interesting but at what point would you say that the act (or thought or omission) should be known to be grounds for mortal sin in today’s climate? Ten people can tell someone it’s a mortal sin to steal a sizeable amount of money but if he sees everyone else doing it, he probably doesn’t think it’s grave. So given enough of such evil around us, there would be no such thing as mortal sin and everyone should be receiving. Is that what you’re saying?

No, that is not what I am saying. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

It has nothing to do with what*** I*** say that the act is known as a mortal sin. It has everything to do with what Holy Mother Church teaches is a mortal sin. Period.

There are three requirements for a sin to be mortal.

1. It must be grave matter
2. The person must know that it is grave matter
3. The person must have full consent of the will to do the action

If any of the three are missing, it is not a mortal sin.

Many Catholics were taught over the past 40-50 years, from the pulpit, in counseling, and in the confessional, that contraception was a matter of their conscience. They were told that it was a decision between man and wife. (Conveniently, this matched what the culture was teaching.) How can these people, who honestly believed their priests and teachers, be held responsible for the corrupt teaching that they received? It is our job now to teach the truth, not to judge people who were taught incorrectly.

 

[YoungTradCath]

No, that is not what I am saying. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

It has nothing to do with what*** I*** say that the act is known as a mortal sin. It has everything to do with what Holy Mother Church teaches is a mortal sin. Period.

There are three requirements for a sin to be mortal.

1. It must be grave matter
2. The person must know that it is grave matter
3. The person must have full consent of the will to do the action

If any of the three are missing, it is not a mortal sin.

Many Catholics were taught over the past 40-50 years, from the pulpit, in counseling, and in the confessional, that contraception was a matter of their conscience. They were told that it was a decision between man and wife. (Conveniently, this matched what the culture was teaching.) How can these people, who honestly believed their priests and teachers, be held responsible for the corrupt teaching that they received? It is our job now to teach the truth, not to judge people who were taught incorrectly.

I believe what ProVobis is trying to ask is, is telling someone that something is a grave matter after they were told numerous times to the contrary over a longish period of time enough to satisfy criterion 2 in your above post?

Is telling someone that something is a grave matter once enough to make the cognitive switch kick in that it is, in fact, a grave matter?

Is hearing so separate from knowing?

 

[GwenL]

I believe what ProVobis is trying to ask is, is telling someone that something is a grave matter after they were told numerous times to the contrary over a longish period of time enough to satisfy criterion 2 in your above post?

Is telling someone that something is a grave matter once enough to make the cognitive switch kick in that it is, in fact, a grave matter?

Is hearing so separate from knowing?

The person must know that it is grave matter. Hearing has nothing to do with it. You could tell a person 100 times that contraception is grave matter. But if they were taught by trusted clergy and teachers that it is a matter of conscience, 200 times, what do they know?

We are missing the point here. You who frequent CAF and listen to CAL know and understand that contraception is an objective evil. The 95% of Catholics who do not frequent CAF or listen to CAL or otherwise receive orthodox teaching do not know or understand that contraception is an objective evil. They are not told this “numerous times.” In fact, they are told the contrary, by people they trust.

We must also acknowledge that some matters are easier to understand via the natural law. Most everyone understands, even from young childhood, that stealing what isn’t yours is wrong. People understand that murder is wrong. People know in their hearts that adultery is wrong. It’s the very rare circumstance where a person doesn’t understand and know these basics of the natural law. But I would contend that contraception is a much more subtle issue. It’s obvious to most humans that murder of an innocent child is wrong. It is not so obvious to most humans that preventing an “unwanted” or “unplanned” pregnancy via contraception is wrong. This is something that has to be taught, not only “told numerous times that it is wrong,” but taught ***why ***it is wrong.