Can we really expect Atheists (and non-Catholics) to come to Catholicism

[Michaelangelo]

I get what you mean but do you really think these atheists are just a bunch of people refusing to belive in God rather than have no reason to?

Then you have people like me, who were received into the church and went all in. After a while I noticed that there were things I simply could not sign under on. Today I do not call myself atheist. I simply say that I haven’t been presented sufficient data to make me believe what the church teaches is correct.

 

[QuietKarlos]

I became a Catholic because of all the miracles. For example if you look at some of the Eucharistic miracles that science back up and tons of others. There are also near death experiences which it’s like crazy how many people experience them. Then history also shows that it’s very likely the Resurrection did happen. Just read into some of these things. Thanks for your reply, God bless

 

[Vico]

Can we (and do we) expect people to come to Catholicism? I mean people are so busy these days they wouldn’t even have time to think about it. Also, how come such smart people don’t come to Catholicism if it is true? Wouldn’t it be easier to realise? and could someone really be morally responsible for not becoming Catholic?

Yes, based upon the action of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Trinity gives the grace of conversion. A human does not save himself. Since the Holy Trinity gives that grace first, it is possible that someone can be responsible for not becoming Catholic.

And I would rather phrase the questions like this:

• Catholicism is true so why do such smart people not come to it?
• Catholicism is true so why is it not easier to realise it?

 

[Jbrady]

I became a Catholic because of all the miracles. For example if you look at some of the Eucharistic miracles that science back up and tons of others. There are also near death experiences which it’s like crazy how many people experience them.

Odd that you didn’t become a Hindu. For every one reported Catholic miracle and near death experience, there are at least a hundred Hindu ones.

 

[QuietKarlos]

Not with as much evidence

 

[Jbrady]

Not with as much evidence

To an atheist, there is just as much evidence for Hindu miracles than for Catholic ones.

 

[QuietKarlos]

A lot of Catholic miracles are inexplicable. I just looked into one of the modern day Hindu ‘miracles’ and found some very simple answers to it. Here is an answer to one milk miracle that apparently happened: What is the scientific explanation for the Ganesha drinking milk phenomenon of 1995? - Quora

They might seem the same to an atheist who hasn’t investigated the miracles. Also none of the Hindu ‘deities’ have any historicity to them or any reason to believe in them either. Thanks and God Bless. Just look into some miracles more and then you can come back to me it.

 

[OnWings]

I’ve also heard of miracles and unexplained stories in other religions. Not every miracle comes from God. Satan can also do things that look like miracles, so we have to be discerning. Knowing that, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the miracles or unexplained events in other religions really happened, but were not necessarily from God. But I think it’s also possible for God to perform miracles for people who aren’t Catholic.

 

[QuietKarlos]

I would say that it’s likely God would perform miracles for Protestants but I wouldn’t know would he allow there to be miracles of other religions, in my opinion i doubt he would.

 

[MPat]

Also, how come such smart people don’t come to Catholicism if it is true?

Well, let’s ask a different question: how comes that such smart people do not all play chess at grandmaster level?

Many things come into play.

First, not everyone who looks smart to himself or to others is really all that smart.

Second, even if one is smart, it does not follow one is “grandmaster level smart”. Maybe he is only “candidate master level smart”.

Third, even if one is smart, one might lack relevant skills, competences, knowledge.

Fourth, one might lack humility, honesty, diligence and the like. That might lead to making less effort than necessary.

The same things are relevant in case of atheists.

For example, the constant “refrain” of one kind of atheists is “There is no evidence for God.”.

Well, that is only supported by the judgement of that atheist. So, is he actually good at noticing such evidence? Is he sufficiently honest to report it to us just truthfully?

So, in several cases I have actually pointed out that such things have not been established yet.

Now, there are several possible good answers. One can simply admit that those claims have not been established and look for a way to argue without relying on them. One can offer some pieces of evidence (it might be harder to do while keeping anonymity). One can ask what those relevant competences would be.

But the atheists generally just get angry, as if that was a great insult to them.

And that is pretty good evidence that something is very very wrong…

Odd that you didn’t become a Hindu. For every one reported Catholic miracle and near death experience, there are at least a hundred Hindu ones.

You wouldn’t happen to be making stuff up a little…?

For that to be true, you should have counted at least tens of thousands of Hindu miracles. That’s, um, a lot. I find that pretty hard to believe…

Especially given that, for example, English Wikipedia does not even have a category “Hindu miracles” at the moment… And its article “Miracle” (Miracle - Wikipedia) merely writes “Miracles continue to be occasionally reported in the practice of Hinduism”…

 

[QuietKarlos]

That was quite a good reply, thanks!y head is a bit jumbled up at the moment so I’m trying to get my head around my faith. Also I really enjoy chess so appreciate that analogy too!

 

[QuietKarlos]

What’s your point?

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Of course we can. There is one member of my extended family, years a staunch atheist, now beginning to turn to God. He is a health worker. We support his queries and discussions and attempt to give him materials he would benefit from in searching for answers. He is even watching streamed Mass I hear and talking of attending Mass once lockdown stops.
Pray for him.

God would not be restricting miracles to Catholics only. Watch some of those near escape youtubes!

 

[Dan_Defender]

There is one member of my extended family, years a staunch atheist, now beginning to turn to God.

Wow that is something I have never witnessed in any atheist I have ever known. That means there is still hope for those lost souls. God is great.

 

[Kaninchen]

Also, how come such smart people don’t come to Catholicism if it is true?

Speaking as one of the outsiders (I’m a Jew), I think that if a Catholic really wants an answer to that kind of question, they need to understand the world/worldview of the people concerned through their eyes rather than Catholic eyes.

 

[Salibi]

they need to understand the world/worldview of the people concerned through their eyes rather than Catholic eyes.

Important point! A lot of the time some Catholics approach other people (and indeed, human existence in general) with a naive, black-and-white “Catholics good non-Catholics bad” mentality that’s really off-putting at best and annoying at worst. When you fail to understand that other groups have just about a million reasons for believing what they believe and doing what they do, and approach the world with a ridiculous black-and-white mentality, you fail to connect to these people as groups and as individuals and fail to understand the real reasons why they wouldn’t convert. Evangelisation is futile with such an attitude…because you’re just talking at people and refusing to understand them, then condemning them when they don’t convert. At the very least when debating someone one has to understand where that person is coming from, and not assume that that person is in some sort of conspiracy against the Church or some other prejudiced thing.

 

[Kaninchen]

just talking at people and refusing to understand them

Sometimes there’s a lot of trying to sell bicycles to fish going on.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Some will convert, some won’t.

And conversion to any thought system has little to do with the reasonableness of that system’s arguments or the intelligence of the converted.

Despite people’s self delusion, we generally don’t run on FACTS! and LOGIC!

We really operate on a mysterious interplay of subconscious issues, of heart-wounds, of desires (which are often tangled and poorly understood), of fallen nature, of emotion, of relationship with others.

Facts and logic have a way smaller role to play than people like to imagine. They’re in there, but not as strongly as we like to think.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Speaking as one of the outsiders (I’m a Jew), I think that if a Catholic really wants an answer to that kind of question, they need to understand the world/worldview of the people concerned through their eyes rather than Catholic eyes.

This is true of any philosophy.
People need to feel like they’re being heard and understood.
Which is a lot harder than it sounds when the bearer of the message also needs to be validated and understood.

I am a practicing Catholic, and I can tell you that the hardest part of Christianity is the transformation of the heart that Jesus wants from us.

Going to Church every Sunday? pfft piece of cake.
Don’t steal/lie/kill/adultery. Okay. Whatever.

Ask me to forgive my enemies? Cue howling.

But if I can’t see the rest of humanity outside my “group” as beloved of God just like me, and not in only an abstract way, it’s going to be very hard to share His message.

 

[Kaninchen]

Which is a lot harder than it sounds when the bearer of the message also needs to be validated and understood.

A key problem surrounds just who is setting the agenda. I learned very early in my two and a half decades of discussing religion with Christians that:

1. there are a lot of people who want to convince you of the truth of their beliefs, though it often feels that the person they most want to convince is themselves; and
2. in talking to such people, one should never allow the ‘evangelist’ to determine - as opposed to negotiate - what was being talked about and how it was going to be talked about.

It has to be said that Catholics, on the whole, are much, much better about this - far less likely to be addicted to the mind-numbing world of Josh McDowell , for example.

I’m sometimes tempted to think that discussing religion without annoying one another too much is like one of those old courtly/stately dances between people who know all the moves because we’ve done it so often before.