Can we really expect Atheists (and non-Catholics) to come to Catholicism

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Not seen any film at all. If you know where I can see some,

Google is your friend, dig deeper.

And when I say ‘church’, I mean yours. If the Roman Catholic church has decided that multiple apparitions of the actual Virgin Mary lasting up to an hour and appearing over a period of many months is not what it is claimed, then there’d be a reason for that. And ‘someone got there before us’ isn’t it.

Again, hint : Egyptian Coptic Church.

When you posted this below

Then tell me after so many witnesses saw it (hundreds of thousands!) why the church thought better of declaring it a bona fide miracle. Hint: Fred’s Law.

It suggested you had researched this event and would know whether the Latin Rite Roman Catholic or the Egyptian Coptics were the Rite that have primary concern for this apparition, and why.

Fred’s law fails to stand as robust if its research base is so thin.

Hmm am I Latin Rite Roman Catholic, Egyptian Coptic, or another rite? Which as you say

“And when I say ‘church’, I mean yours.”

is mine.

Nup, still no video. Just a few awful pictures. Oh, a video that showed a picture. But that’s all.

And the fact that the Vatican wasn’t interested in the appearance of the mother of Jesus Christ surely says something. Do you think they thought it might have been true but hey, it’s a different church…

Do you think they need to wait until it happens in Roman Catholic church before they will accept it? Why did you bring it up if it doesn’t count…?

 

[Michaelangelo]

What need of faith do those who will not believe until they witness a backyard Resurrection? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed (John 20:29). When did you stop praying?

So I guess, the apostles weren’t blessed in that sense. Regarding my prayer life: I stopped when didn’t see any meaning in it.

 

[Michaelangelo]

I dispute the claims that you assert regarding Scripture purely on lack of demonstrated knowledge regarding themes we have already discussed here.

Ok.

Reading books in their original language, and translating them would also feature in research before such an assertion could be taken as a seriously robust assertion.

Since we don’t have acces to the originals all we can do is speculate about the content of those.

The word day in Biblical Hebrew an example of that.

And what has yom to do with this topic?

As a scientist you would understand and appreciate accuracy and precision, in all things. As do I.

Yup! Which make those pesky details like no acces to the original documents of the biblical books, lack of empirical data regarding the claimed miracles and apparitions and so on, rather annoying. And those pesky details adds up to a picture that does not overlap with the claims of the church.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Nup, still no video. Just a few awful pictures. Oh, a video that showed a picture. But that’s all.

And the fact that the Vatican wasn’t interested in the appearance of the mother of Jesus Christ surely says something. Do you think they thought it might have been true but hey, it’s a different church…

Do you think they need to wait until it happens in Roman Catholic church before they will accept it? Why did you bring it up if it doesn’t count…?

I have to wonder if you are reading and considering my replies. This is based on your continuing insistence that the Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church has some sort of precedence over the Egyptian Coptic Church in determination of what happened at Zietoun.
It is a bit like saying that Australia has precedence over Belgium in the determination of beer law and food safety protocols in Belgium.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Since we don’t have acces to the originals all we can do is speculate about the content of those.

The Autographs are not available to us as is much of text from ancient times. This is either because they did not survive the ravages of time, or they have not yet been unearthed, dug up, discovered, like the Dead Sea Scrolls or parchments and Steles from BC. However, we do have the Hebrew Bible which is all BC and reproduced with a great amount of accuracy due to protocols in place down through the centuries as its books were being reproduced and transcribed.

The New Testament writings have been around since 1AD in Greek and Aramaic, and other languages because of those wonderful roads the Romans built. This allowed books, chapters, verses, prayers and letters to travel throughout that part of the world. AS did the oral retelling of just what might have happened in 33AD.

And what has yom to do with this topic?
[/quote)

Was it you that stated as a piece of your evidence against God and Scripture that the word for ‘day’ was not quantified by the Church?
This one simple word demonstrates how a working and thorough knowledge of Biblical Hebrew is required to examine and dismiss Scripture as you so quaintly put it

And to me, scripture has more holes than a termite infested cottage.

Yup! Which make those pesky details like no acces to the original documents of the biblical books, lack of empirical data regarding the claimed miracles and apparitions and so on, rather annoying. And those pesky details adds up to a picture that does not overlap with the claims of the church.

All one have to do is learn those languages and then get the Bibles in them. There are no hidden secrets.

Esistence of evil . What do you mean by that? Define evil to start with. Then we can dicuss eventual existence of evil.

Existence … This is a new thread. I am happy to discuss this in a new thread.

There is no documented instance of a piece of bread liquifying and then back to bread again. So define first what solid is the starting point for this miraculous transformation. And what is the liquid endpoint? As you see more data is needed.

We Catholics, we believers know this is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of God.

Hint : dig deeper and then come back as a scientist and discuss the research and biology of any tests conducted on these type of events.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Nup, still no video. Just a few awful pictures. Oh, a video that showed a picture. But that’s all.

And the fact that the Vatican wasn’t interested in the appearance of the mother of Jesus Christ surely says something. Do you think they thought it might have been true but hey, it’s a different church…

Do you think they need to wait until it happens in Roman Catholic church before they will accept it? Why did you bring it up if it doesn’t count…?

I have to wonder if you are reading and considering my replies. This is based on your continuing insistence that the Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church has some sort of precedence over the Egyptian Coptic Church in determination of what happened at Zietoun.
It is a bit like saying that Australia has precedence over Belgium in the determination of beer law and food safety protocols in Belgium.

Definitely reading what you’re saying. Which was that there are lots of quality piccies of our Lady at Zeitoun. And videos as well. Still waiting to see them.

And I understand that you feel that the Vatican would be standing on someone else’s toes by getting involved with the mother of Jesus making regular appearances. Yet you feel no there’s no problem in using this as an example of a bona fide miracle. Which is the matter in hand.

As I asked, why bring it up if it ‘doesn’t count’. And the follow up question was: 'Does the Virgin Mary need to appear in a Roman Catholic Church before the Vatican would take any notice?

 

[po18guy]

And Gregor Mendel, the “Father of genetics”?

As an aside, the world’s second-largest “church” is fallen away Catholics. Heck, I would love it if Catholics entered the Church!

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

And I understand that you feel that the Vatican would be standing on someone else’s toes by getting involved with the mother of Jesus making regular appearances. Yet you feel no there’s no problem in using this as an example of a bona fide miracle. Which is the matter in hand.

What I think does not matter, in this matter, I do not dictate protocol between rites.

You are assuming way too much in what I feel or do not feel. I brought up an apparition that has been experienced by thousands. Your response has been ‘but where are the 2020 quality photos and video of it’, ‘why hasnt the Latin Rite Catholic church looked into and approved/disproved it’. You are still responding this way rather then going to look at what the Egyptian Coptics have done regarding this set of apparitions in the 1960s.

As I asked, why bring it up if it ‘doesn’t count’. And the follow up question was: 'Does the Virgin Mary need to appear in a Roman Catholic Church before the Vatican would take any notice?

What doesnt count?
What follow up question, one from you? Again you are completely ignoring protocol between Rites in that last sentence /question of yours.
Freddy. I am not here to convince you God exists or does no exist, or win arguments or debates either way. Your journey is your own and will be taken in its own time.

Definitely reading what you’re saying. Which was that there are lots of quality piccies of our Lady at Zeitoun. And videos as well. Still waiting to see them.

Do you really need me to show you these when google is out there. Why not start a new thread so we dont derail this one, and put up some photos and we can discuss their quality.

 

[Freddy]

Do you really need me to show you these when google is out there.

Yep. We all need to see on what you base your belief in this miracle.

One reason why people don’t ‘come to Catholicism’ is that some proffer miracles as a reason to believe in God and they are very far from being in any way convincing. I’d like to see the evidence of why you think Zeitoun is a miracle that could bring people to the church.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

I would honestly think intelligence makes it harder to come to Catholicism.

I think intelligence makes it easier to come to Catholicism. You realize that other religions don’t have answers to your questions, but Catholicism does. That was how I felt when I converted. Suddenly, things made sense. Also, I don’t think there is anything in science that contradicts Christianity. (See Father Spitzer on crediblecatholic.org, “at the intersection of faith and reason.” He is on EWTN Wednesdays (today) at 2:00.)

I am a member of a high IQ society, and I came to Catholicism happily and with eyes wide open. And the more I read and learn, the more I realize what had been missing in my view of life before I converted. I am sure that I did the right thing and am now in the right place.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

I meant to say that if a smart atheist comes to the conclusion there is no God how can we expect people to believe.

But if a smart Catholic came to the conclusion that there IS a God, that wouldn’t steer you TOWARD believing?

 

[Freddy]

QuietKarlos:

I meant to say that if a smart atheist comes to the conclusion there is no God how can we expect people to believe.

But if a smart Catholic came to the conclusion that there IS a God, that wouldn’t steer you TOWARD believing?

I think I’d prefer to listen to the arguments from someone who could string a sentence together without falling over her own feet. But it would be the arguments that would count. Not the person relating them. There are some quite intelligent people who hold remarkably stupid beliefs.