Can we reconcile God's love with hell?

[Jubilarian]

George Carlin famously said in one of his comedy routines about religion (and I’m paraphrasing), ‘God will send you to hell where you will suffer and burn forever and ever…but he loves you.’

I know many immediately think that God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself in a way, but even putting that aside, from a human standpoint, suffering and burning forever and ever seems extreme for a possible one time sin or even a perpetual sin. Does hell seem extreme to anyone…in any case?

 

[powerofk]

This question has been asked many times before on this board, in different fashions, but, yes - we can reconcile God’s love with Hell. Hell is completely chosen, and God sends no one to Hell. His Will is that none are in Hell; in fact, He does not even will that Satan himself is in Hell for all eternity. But - that was Satan’s choice. Satan wanted to worship his own self over God, and thus refused an eternity with God, as in the eternal realm, all decisions are eternal. When we die, our souls depart from the temporal realm to the eternal realm (and are rejoined to our bodies at the general resurrection). An objective mortal sin (which meets all three categories - grave matter, full consent, full knowledge) is a deliberate rejection of God. When a person commits a mortal sin, he/she has completely rejected God in favor of the self. If the person refuses to repent of the sin before death, then he/she has decided to reject God for all eternity. God stands with His arms open, but He cannot accept the person into Heaven who refuses to be in His presence, as the only definition of Heaven that is absolutely known is that those in Heaven are in the presence of God. Honestly, as I’ve written before, even were the gates of Hell left open (as they very well might be), those in Hell would never leave, as for them, being in the presence of God is more detestable than being in everlasting fire and torture from their sins. Seriously - they’d rather be in everlasting fire and torture than to be in the presence of God. And so, since they want to be forever mired in their sins worshipping themselves (which is the true reason for their torture), God allows them to.

 

[littlestsouls2]

We can. Ven. Louise Margaret said that “it is precisely because I believe in Thy love, O my great God, powerful and good, that I believe in Hell… If there were no Hell, three splendid jewels would be wanting to the crown of Thy sublime perfections; there would be wanting justice, power and dignity!”

St. Augustine: “It is the same fire that tortures the damned and purifies the elect.”

Rev. F.X. Schouppe: “One day, a holy soul was meditating upon Hell, and considering the eternity of the pains… ‘Lord,’ she said, ‘I submit to Thy judgments, but do not push the rigors of Thy justice to far.’ ‘Do you understand,’ was the answer, ‘what sin is? To sin is to say to God, I will not serve Thee! I despise Thy law, I laugh at Thy threats!’ ‘I understand, Lord, that sin is an outrage to Thy Majesty.’ ‘Well, measure, if you can, the greatness of this outrage.’ ‘Lord, this outrage is infinite, since it attacks infinite Majesty.’ ‘Must it not, then, be punished by an infinite chastisement? Now, as the punishment could not be infinite in its intensity, justice demands that it be so at least in its duration.’

Jesus to St. Bridget (Addressing a fallen angel): ‘You are full of fury against Me and My elect, but I am so charitable that I would if necessary die again and I would endure for each soul and for each fallen angel the same torture that I once underwent on the Cross for all souls.’ (p. 82, Vol. 1) **

 

[thetazlord]

George Carlin famously said in one of his comedy routines about religion (and I’m paraphrasing), ‘God will send you to hell where you will suffer and burn forever and ever…but he loves you.’

I know many immediately think that God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself in a way, but even putting that aside, from a human standpoint, suffering and burning forever and ever seems extreme for a possible one time sin or even a perpetual sin. Does hell seem extreme to anyone…in any case?

We have to remember that the wages of sin is death, & death (along with those in Hades) will be cast into the lake of fire. A person’s “reward” for willfully sinning against God is the lake of fire. IOW, everybody deserves Hell. Nobody deserves Heaven, because the criteria for entering Heaven is perfection, sinlessness, which nobody is or can achieve. This is why Jesus died on the cross for us, & gave us the opportunity to choose to accept His free gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). For those who refuse, essentially they are saying they would rather choose to rebel against God & the evidence of His existence & moral law in exchange for an immoral lifestyle, even if that means spending eternity without God. Also, Scripture makes it clear that there are people God “hates” or “abhors.” So, God doesn’t love “everybody,” because when Jesus says “God so loved the world,” He’s referring to those in the world who the Father “sent His only begotten Son” who will “believe in Him” & “will not perish.”

So, God IS loving because a loving God loves His creation enough to let them know “how” to “enter the kingdom of God” which He did in His written Word. If people choose to reject this, this isn’t God being “unloving,” but rather them. So, Mr. Carlin, let’s put accountability on the right person - the unbeliever, not God. Sadly, he’s a believer now - just at the wrong time. Mr. Carlin is laughing & making jokes now.

 

[vsedriver]

I like that George Carlin riff on it all, very funny.

I

don’t think we can reconcile it.
Since God is the one who apparently makes the final decision if one goes to “heaven” or “hell” (right?) and he can choose which way to go each time–then God is indeed the one who sends people to such an awful place.

 

[JRKH]

George Carlin famously said in one of his comedy routines about religion (and I’m paraphrasing), ‘God will send you to hell where you will suffer and burn forever and ever…but he loves you.’

I know many immediately think that God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself in a way, but even putting that aside, from a human standpoint, suffering and burning forever and ever seems extreme for a possible one time sin or even a perpetual sin. Does hell seem extreme to anyone…in any case?

Yes - Hell seems quite extreme to me.
But then - I think “extreme” is the whole idea.

Heaven is described as the most extreme bliss - Joy and happiness forever and ever. So - What would you suggest is an appropriate and proportional counterpoint to this?
I suggest therefore that one not try to reconcile hell with God’s Love, but rather to reconcile the one “extreme” with the other.

Another way to consider this matter is that these extremes are described in terms we can grasp, but do not necessarily reflect the true reality of heaven and hell.
Scripture tells us:
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,” - (1 Corinthians 2:9)
If this is true of heaven…might it also be true of hell? Could the verse above serve equally well for those who do NOT love him? Could hell be something quite different from what we “conceive”?
Just something to ponder.

Ultimately - - for me at least - - I have to say that such questions are moot. Regardless of what the reality of hell is, it is NOT eternal life with God in heaven, so why should I care what the reality of hell is?
Avoiding hell is not the goal. Being worthy of heaven is the goal. So this is where the focus needs to be. What is required of me to be worthy of the greatest of all Love in existence? This question is answered in John13:34-35.
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35)
The rest we must leave in God’s hands.

Peace
James

 

[Jerurussia]

Free will defines humanity, a gift from God. Hell is God’s respect for the free will choice to be where God is not.

 

[BabbleCat]

If there was no Hell, God would not be loving.

It is not loving to let unrepentant evil people mix with good people. That is what we humans do and it is a far from loving action.

A loving parent reprimands their children and accepts their child’s choice to permanently remove their self form the parent - child relationship. The parent does not want that but they will not FORCE the child (like an animal) to exist in the same space as them.

 

[ClearWater]

George Carlin famously said in one of his comedy routines about religion (and I’m paraphrasing), ‘God will send you to hell where you will suffer and burn forever and ever…but he loves you.’

I know many immediately think that God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself in a way, but even putting that aside, from a human standpoint, suffering and burning forever and ever seems extreme for a possible one time sin or even a perpetual sin. Does hell seem extreme to anyone…in any case?

I can’t reconcile God’s love with hell.

 

[truetofaith]

I like that George Carlin riff on it all, very funny.

I don’t think we can reconcile it.
Since God is the one who apparently makes the final decision if one goes to “heaven” or “hell” (right?) and he can choose which way to go each time–then God is indeed the one who sends people to such an awful place.

A loving parent would not sent their child to such a place–maybe they’d give their child a time-out or send them to their room or give them a smack on their butt when they’ve been “bad”…but not send them to burn in fires forever.

And to many people, this hell doesn’t exist. So how can they be blamed for doing something that sends them there?

If God were truly loving, then he wouldn’t send someone to hell just because they had “rejected” him.
A loving God would be superior to that.

I suppose we could reconcile it, though, if the God was *not *an all-loving God.
Then, it would make sense.

Personally, I think that if there is indeed a heaven and a hell, then everyone is in heaven.
If actually shown that they could go to a great, happy place or one of burning fire and pitchforks…everyone will choose the nice, happy, place on the soft clouds.

.

Oh, you make me feel so cozy & fuzzy-wuzzy! :heaven:

I’m so happy to hear I’ll be in heaven with unrepentant mass murderers, rapists & terrorists!
I’ll even get to meet Adolf Hitler and ask him to describe the thrill you get up your leg when you roast 6 million Jews! :bigyikes:

 

[Tomoko]

This question has been asked many times before on this board, in different fashions, but, yes - we can reconcile God’s love with Hell. Hell is completely chosen, and God sends no one to Hell. His Will is that none are in Hell; in fact, He does not even will that Satan himself is in Hell for all eternity. But - that was Satan’s choice. Satan wanted to worship his own self over God, and thus refused an eternity with God, as in the eternal realm, all decisions are eternal. When we die, our souls depart from the temporal realm to the eternal realm (and are rejoined to our bodies at the general resurrection). An objective mortal sin (which meets all three categories - grave matter, full consent, full knowledge) is a deliberate rejection of God. When a person commits a mortal sin, he/she has completely rejected God in favor of the self. If the person refuses to repent of the sin before death, then he/she has decided to reject God for all eternity. God stands with His arms open, but He cannot accept the person into Heaven who refuses to be in His presence, as the only definition of Heaven that is absolutely known is that those in Heaven are in the presence of God. Honestly, as I’ve written before, even were the gates of Hell left open (as they very well might be), those in Hell would never leave, as for them, being in the presence of God is more detestable than being in everlasting fire and torture from their sins. Seriously - they’d rather be in everlasting fire and torture than to be in the presence of God. And so, since they want to be forever mired in their sins worshipping themselves (which is the true reason for their torture), God allows them to.

It feels to me as if we always want to blame God for hell, but I have always understood it in more or less the way you have described. We make a conscious choice to live in or out of the love of God, and God does not force anybody to love him.

I do not believe that the torments of hell are torments that God performs on the souls there. I believe that the torment of hell **is **the very absence of God. But, as you say, it is chosen by those who, with full knowledge, have rejected God constantly throughout their life and continue to do so into the next, rather being there than in the presence of God.

The gates of the eternal city are never shut (Rev 21:25), but God can’t compel anyone to come through them. My deepest prayer is that hell will be found empty.

 

[Texas_Longhorns]

I can’t reconcile God’s love with hell.

It is much easier when you consider the question from the perspective of God’s hatred of sin. The Bible tells us that God not only hates sin, but he also hates the sinner. “But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike.” Wisdom 14:9)

St. Thomas explains that God doesn’t hate sinners as far as their nature and being are concerned, but He hates them insofar as they are sinner. If they die in that state, they will be “hated” by God for eternity. Fortunately, it is possible to convert prior to death and be loved by God.

Also to clarify, the “state of sin” is the state of separation from God. It is the natural condition of the soul that does not possess sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is a created participation in the life of God, which is initially infused into the soul at baptism. It is what causes a person to be “born again”. Grace is lost through mortal sin, but can be received once again through the sacraments of confession (or a perfect act of contrition).

 

[beleg]

Rev. F.X. Schouppe: “One day, a holy soul was meditating upon Hell, and considering the eternity of the pains… ‘Lord,’ she said, ‘I submit to Thy judgments, but do not push the rigors of Thy justice to far.’ ‘Do you understand,’ was the answer, ‘what sin is? To sin is to say to God, I will not serve Thee! I despise Thy law, I laugh at Thy threats!’ ‘I understand, Lord, that sin is an outrage to Thy Majesty.’ ‘Well, measure, if you can, the greatness of this outrage.’ ‘Lord, this outrage is infinite, since it attacks infinite Majesty.’ ‘Must it not, then, be punished by an infinite chastisement? Now, as the punishment could not be infinite in its intensity, justice demands that it be so at least in its duration.’

This is probably one of the best answers I’ve heard on this issue, especially when paired with the fact that those who are in hell actively choose to be there.

 

[Tomoko]

It is much easier when you consider the question from the perspective of God’s hatred of sin. The Bible tells us that God not only hates sin, but he also hates the sinner. “But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike.” Wisdom 14:9)

St. Thomas explains that God doesn’t hate sinners as far as their nature and being are concerned, but He hates them insofar as they are sinner. If they die in that state, they will be “hated” by God for eternity. Fortunately, it is possible to convert prior to death and be loved by God.

Also to clarify, the “state of sin” is the state of separation from God. It is the natural condition of the soul that does not possess sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is a created participation in the life of God, which is initially infused into the soul at baptism. It is what causes a person to be “born again”. Grace is lost through mortal sin, but can be received once again through the sacraments of confession (or a perfect act of contrition).

If God hates the sinner, who does he love, being as how we’re all sinners? Isn’t that just reconciling God’s love with hell by removing the love?

 

[Texas_Longhorns]

If God hates the sinner, who does he love, being as how we’re all sinners? Isn’t that just reconciling God’s love with hell by removing the love?

We’re not all sinners in the same way. It is one thing to commit a venial fault, and another to willfully turn away from God by doing an evil that He forbids.

Also, keep in mind the difference between a soul in the state of grace and a soul in actual or mortal sin. The soul in the state of grace is supernaturally alive with the life of God. A soul not in the state of grace is supernaturally dead. Those who die with supernatural grace in the soul will be saved; those who die without it will be lost.

In fact, as the Councils of Florence and Lyons taught, even those who die in original sin only (who have never committed an actual sin) will not be saved.

The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.” (Denzinger 464)

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Florence, Sixth Session, 6 July 1439.)”

To clarify one point: the souls who die in original sin only (infants who die before baptism for example) do not suffer any pain of sense (bodily pain) but only the “pain of loss” (they will not possess the beatific vision). Such souls are in a state of natural happiness, but it is still considered “hell”, since it is eternal separation from the vision of God.

 

[PietroPaolo]

In fact, Hell is proof of God’s love. Dante hits this nail on the head in Canto 3 of Inferno (emphasis mine):

“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved:
To rear me was the task of Power divine,
Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things
Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.”

And no, God couldn’t have made Hell any nicer than it is (see why HERE).

 

[PietroPaolo]

If God hates the sinner, who does he love, being as how we’re all sinners? Isn’t that just reconciling God’s love with hell by removing the love?

God doesn’t hate the sinner. He hates the sin and loves the sinner. We’re called to do the same (that’s what both Westboro Baptist Church and modernist-liberal Christians fail to understand - the one group hates the sin so much they hate the sinner too, the other loves the sinner so much, they love the sin too - both are wrong).

 

[Tomoko]

We’re not all sinners in the same way. It is one thing to commit a venial fault, and another to willfully turn away from God by doing an evil that He forbids.

Also, keep in mind the difference between a soul in the state of grace and a soul in actual or mortal sin. The soul in the state of grace is supernaturally alive with the life of God. A soul not in the state of grace is supernaturally dead. Those who die with supernatural grace in the soul will be saved; those who die without it will be lost.

In fact, as the Councils of Florence and Lyons taught, even those who die in original sin only (who have never committed an actual sin) will not be saved.

The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.” (Denzinger 464)

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Florence, Sixth Session, 6 July 1439.)”

To clarify one point: the souls who die in original sin only (infants who die before baptism for example) do not suffer any pain of sense (bodily pain) but only the “pain of loss” (they will not possess the beatific vision). Such souls are in a state of natural happiness, but it is still considered “hell”, since it is eternal separation from the vision of God.

I understand the different ‘types’ of sin. It was the ‘God hates sinners’ I was referring to (you didn’t say ‘God hates those in mortal sin’, but I’d still find that hard). Sin prevents us from being close to God, which is why we have the sacrament of reconciliation etc., but estranging ourselves from God is different to God hating us.

We are all sinners (1 Jn 1:8), and Jesus came into the world to save sinners (Rom 5:8 says this is an act of love FOR sinners). I accept that God hates sin, but if God hates sinners, why did he go through such lengths to reconcile us? I think those are two very different things.

 

[Tomoko]

God doesn’t hate the sinner. He hates the sin and loves the sinner. We’re called to do the same (that’s what both Westboro Baptist Church and modernist-liberal Christians fail to understand - the one group hates the sin so much they hate the sinner too, the other loves the sinner so much, they love the sin too - both are wrong).

I agree with you. I was replying to Texas’ post that God hates both the sin and the sinner.

 

[simonmic]

If God forgives all sin if one repents, then why don’t many of his followers?

Because to people, it depends on what sin it is…Mine were too bad to be posted in Catholic forum apparently…Love the sinner, but not the sin? I doubt that very much.

I once wrote in here what i did and my comments were removed and i had a six month ban. I would much rather see the “true nature” of people who claim to “love me”.

If i am going to hell for not having confessed to a falible Priest, who, himself didn’t want me near his church and his congregation, then i will let Jesus, if He is there, to deal with me as He chooses.

I would rather confess to Our Lady than any Priest anyway…The most perfect intercessors, If i truly believed she was there too.