Can we reconcile God's love with hell?

[NoelFitz]

Simonmic
thank you for reading and replying to my post. You agree that Hans urs Von Balthasar hoped that all may be saved, and this is compatible with Catholic teaching.
You ask (facetiously ??) ‘Apparently Judas may have had a chance?’ The Church has never said any particular individual will be saved, but the Bible must be considered.

 

[simonmic]

Simonmic
thank you for reading and replying to my post. You agree that Hans urs Von Balthasar hoped that all may be saved, and this is compatible with Catholic teaching.
You ask (facetiously ??) ‘Apparently Judas may have had a chance?’ The Church has never said any particular individual will be saved, but the Bible must be considered.

I would have liked for Judas to have been saved. Especially after he gave back the silver. I felt pity for him. I wanted a happy ending for him. Not the ending he got in the film “The Passion Of The Christ”

Christ would still been found and tried, even without Judas. It wasn’t as though Christ had run away into exile and was in hiding.

He gave the silver back. Wasn’t that enough of a sorry?

 

[fred_conty]

George Carlin famously said in one of his comedy routines about religion (and I’m paraphrasing), ‘God will send you to hell where you will suffer and burn forever and ever…but he loves you.’

I know many immediately think that God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself in a way, but even putting that aside, from a human standpoint, suffering and burning forever and ever seems extreme for a possible one time sin or even a perpetual sin. Does hell seem extreme to anyone…in any case?

When we walk into our house at night, we reach for the light switch. If the lights don’t go on it is because there is no power.

When we walk thru the door of death, if the power is there, we will see God. If the power is not there, then we will see darkness. This power is the love of God’s divine presense in the soul which enables one to see. Without it we won’t see.

This power is normally given in baptism and maintained in a good life. But it may be given by God to those who do not know about baptism upon their good will.

So after death, it isn’t so much a judgment of where one goes but a judgment of what one has…power or not to see God.

So hell is not extreme nor little, but is what it is because we are what we are.

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn

 

[Jubilarian]

When we walk into our house at night, we reach for the light switch. If the lights don’t go on it is because there is no power.

When we walk thru the door of death, if the power is there, we will see God. If the power is not there, then we will see darkness. This power is the love of God’s divine presense in the soul which enables one to see. Without it we won’t see.

This power is normally given in baptism and maintained in a good life. But it may be given by God to those who do not know about baptism upon their good will.

So after death, it isn’t so much a judgment of where one goes but a judgment of what one has…power or not to see God.

So hell is not extreme nor little, but is what it is because we are what we are.

“I know the sun is shinning even when it isn’t shinning.” Christian hymn

Can you speak to the issue of ancient civilizations that knew nothing of baptism? Also, how were they to know Yaweh personally and avoid eternal separation?

 

[NoelFitz]

Simonmic,
many thanks for your excellent contributions here. I think you consider yourself an ex-Catholic, while I consider myself a right-wing conservative Catholic, yet we seem to agree fully.

I would hope Judas was saved. Was he not acting so the Scriptures might be fulfilled?

Both he and Peter acted immorally and repented , yet one was forgiven, one was not.

Similarly Mary and Zechariah both questioned God’s plans, yet one was punished the other was not.

God’s ways are not our ways, and we cannot understand God. From our point of view he does not seem good, yet he is defined in absolute goodness.

 

[simonmic]

Simonmic,
many thanks for your excellent contributions here. I think you consider yourself an ex-Catholic, while I consider myself a right-wing conservative Catholic, yet we seem to agree fully.

I would hope Judas was saved. Was he not acting so the Scriptures might be fulfilled?

Both he and Peter acted immorally and repented , yet one was forgiven, one was not.

Similarly Mary and Zechariah both questioned God’s plans, yet one was punished the other was not.

God’s ways are not our ways, and we cannot understand God. From our point of view he does not seem good, yet he is defined in absolute goodness.

NoelFitz,

You have a kind disposition about you.

I don’t see myself as a genuine contributor to this forum. I often write something on the spur of the moment, sometimes regretting what i may have said.

I am not familiar with Mary and Zechariah? I don’t now too many Bible stories.

I would rather God sought me due to my doubts. He probably knows right now i doubt Him and that i do not believe in those who follow Him that i have known awhile online, through email. I took them to task, rightly or wrongly, and tested and probed them. I found out there is no real love and forgiveness in my “humble” opinion. The love they offered was superficial. Never going further than just saying the the word and finding ways around showing true love (revising,altering to suit), or what i hoped it to be…using it only in the hope that they please Jesus.

Sorry to say it, but that is how i feel about those who are meant to be my possible Community of Catholic brothers and sisters.

I will accept any flak i may get for writing this, but i stick to what i say until i find at least one true Catholic who will take me on and show true love… I accept all that is is coming to me in this life and the next, which is ,if this is all real, hell and i know i am a bad terribly sinful person who is also selfish.

Simon

 

[truetofaith]

I would have liked for Judas to have been saved. Especially after he gave back the silver. I felt pity for him. I wanted a happy ending for him. Not the ending he got in the film “The Passion Of The Christ”

Christ would still been found and tried, even without Judas. It wasn’t as though Christ had run away into exile and was in hiding.

He gave the silver back. Wasn’t that enough of a sorry?

Maybe…but then he blew it by hanging himself ! :ehh:

 

[simonmic]

Maybe…but then he blew it by hanging himself ! :ehh:

because he was hounded by demons! Just as i am perhaps…I do not believe anyway…so in that case my demons are not demons at all, but my own self…evil incarnate!

 

[St_Redemption]

Can He ask us before we die?

He could very well have a conversation, if He deemed necessary, AFTER or before death, or He could know our answer without having to do as much. The important thing to remember is that He will always do what is right.

 

[NoelFitz]

Simon,
I think your contributions are brilliant. You are honest and you write from the head and the heart. You are clever and say things as they are. You avoid cliches and parrotting meaningless formulae.

You are a true believer in God and the after-life. I am a conservative, right wing, Opus Dei type. a member of the Parish Council, a minister of Holy Communion, a member of many Catholic groups. But can I see God as merciful, and loving while people are in hell?
I envy you your faith in God and the after-life.

I see the irony in two people being very alike, one considered a good Catholic, the other wobbly.

So anyway, keep the faith and return to the true Church which respects honesty, sincerity, love and intelligence.

 

[NoelFitz]

St Redemption
You wrote " He could very well have a conversation, if He deemed necessary, AFTER or before death, or He could know our answer without having to do as much. The important thing to remember is that He will always do what is right."

I believe Catholic theology would consider you right and wrong.

The Church teaches that in our particular judgement the future is decidedt. If we are in mortal sin, it is hell for all eternity.

He will always do what is right, by definition. But it will not seem right to us. Thus he is right to punish a person in everlasting fire, but to us that seems wrong.

But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?”(NRSV Rom 9:20)

 

[St_Redemption]

St Redemption
You wrote " He could very well have a conversation, if He deemed necessary, AFTER or before death, or He could know our answer without having to do as much. The important thing to remember is that He will always do what is right."

I believe Catholic theology would consider you right and wrong.

The Church teaches that in our particular judgement the future is decidedt. If we are in mortal sin, it is hell for all eternity.

He will always do what is right, by definition. But it will not seem right to us. Thus he is right to punish a person in everlasting fire, but to us that seems wrong.

But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?”(NRSV Rom 9:20)

We probably agree, being faithful, that whatever God chooses is in fact right, even if it seems contrary to our own senses. But I do not believe that it will always be contrary to our own senses. I believe that after we die we will see that He is in fact right, and that one cannot formulate any argument against it.

 

[NoelFitz]

St R
You wrote:
“We probably agree, being faithful, that whatever God chooses is in fact right, even if it seems contrary to our own senses. But I do not believe that it will always be contrary to our own senses. I believe that after we die we will see that He is in fact right, and that one cannot formulate any argument against it”
I fully agree with you.

As both of us are loyal Catholics, how can we fundamentally disagree?

I frequently I find that, even in science, superficial differences disappear when studied in detail.

As a member of the Newman Society of Ireland at every meeting we pray:
" God has created me to do Him some definite service; He has committed some work to me which He has not committed to another. I have my mission—I never may know it in this life, but I shall be told it in the next."

 

[powerofk]

Maybe…but then he blew it by hanging himself ! :ehh:

Honestly, there are two different accounts of Judas’s death. If we go by the account in Matthew, Judas was very sorry for what he did, but committed suicide out of despair. According to this, then, if Judas is in Hell, it’s not for not being penitent - it’s for believing that his sin was unforgivable.

According to Acts, Judas kept the money, bought a field with it, and then tripped, fell, and split his guts open all over the field. Following this version, Judas was not sorry for betraying Jesus - and actually probably still thought that he had done the right thing according to Jewish law. If we follow this line of logic, if Judas is in Hell, it’s either (a) for knowingly betraying a person he knew to be innocent or (b) refusing to repent from being a thief.

So, yes, there may have been hope for Judas, even if neither he nor any of the apostles believed that there was hope for him.

Hell is a possibility for all of us. But… our hope is that, when we die, we won’t find anyone there because they all died repentant. Because if we die unrepentant of mortal sin, our wills are fixed and we end up in Hell.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I look at hell completely different than many, if not most, people.

The reason that I look at hell the way I do, could be because of the “fact” that God allowed me to “experience hell” a little over 15 years ago.

I also believe that Jesus, in paying the ransom for our sins on the cross went to hell, not just the “abode of the good dead”, so to speak.

Jesus went to EVERYONE’S HELL since everyone’s hell is custom-built, hell is not some monolithic place and the reason that He went to EVERYONE’S HELL is because He took EVERYONE’S SINS upon Himself on the cross.

If Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself and paid the price, what was “the price” that He paid?

On the cross, Jesus reportedly said, “It is finished” which translates as PAID IN FULL.

Just what does this PAID IN FULL refer to?

Does anyone think that we should hope?

If anyone does think that we should hope, why not hope beyond what many think is hope-able?

Maybe God’s Will will be done, just as it is written, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved…”, even though many seem to think that this is an impossibility for God.

When Jesus was asked about who can be saved, He reportedly responded, “With man, it is impossible, with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE”.

 

[simonmic]

I only found out about Jesus descending to hell from the Apostle’s Creed…Had not a clue He did until i used to try praying the Rosary and Divine Mercy prayer a while back.

I never looked into why He actually went there either.

 

[truetofaith]

I only found out about Jesus descending to hell from the Apostle’s Creed…Had not a clue He did until i used to try praying the Rosary and Divine Mercy prayer a while back.

I never looked into why He actually went there either.

Ephesians 4:9 mentions Christ descending to the lower regions of the earth. I was taught He let out the Old Test. people who loved God but weren’t Baptized.

 

[NoelFitz]

Powerofk,

Many thanks for your reply to me.

I appreciate very much CAF, which allows robust, respectful discussions, especially between believing Catholics to occur, even when some (like me) have a limited grasp of the faith.

I appreciate that there are two accounts of the death of Judas. But some sins are unforgivable, such as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which will not be forgiven in this life or in the life to come. In school we were taught that this sin was final rejection of God. But this is not the issue here.

Origen (who with Aquinas and Augustine) is among the greatest theologians of the Church believed that it was in the nature of a rational spirit to have free will, hence even Satan has the possibility to be saved.

The Church has never claimed officially that Judas is in hell.

I believe (unfortunately) that the limit for Catholic believe is the possibility that there will eventually be no one in hell.

---

On a personal note I am obsessed with the idea of hell, and that God is unjust and lacks mercy if anyone ends up there. So in my prayers I try to focus on the positive (whistling past graveyards).

I think of the King and ’ I and whistle a happy tune’, or follow Johnny Mercer:

“You’ve got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between”

If you prefer to quote the Bible:
"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (NRSV, Tit 3:4,5).

 

[eddie_too]

we can not have eternal life without knowing Jesus. can we intuitively know Jesus? can we unconsciously or subconsciously know Jesus? we can definitely and consciously know Jesus through an active faith. Christian baptism is the natural and ordinary way to begin our journey to an ever greater knowledge and love of Jesus.

Jesus did not teach us much about the extraordinary ways in which a human being can know the Father and He whom the Father sent, Jesus Christ.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Powerofk,

Many thanks for your reply to me.

I appreciate very much CAF, which allows robust, respectful discussions, especially between believing Catholics to occur, even when some (like me) have a limited grasp of the faith.

I appreciate that there are two accounts of the death of Judas. But some sins are unforgivable, such as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which will not be forgiven in this life or in the life to come. In school we were taught that this sin was final rejection of God. But this is not the issue here.

Origen (who with Aquinas and Augustine) is among the greatest theologians of the Church believed that it was in the nature of a rational spirit to have free will, hence even Satan has the possibility to be saved.

The Church has never claimed officially that Judas is in hell.

I believe (unfortunately) that the limit for Catholic believe is the possibility that there will eventually be no one in hell.

---

On a personal note I am obsessed with the idea of hell, and that God is unjust and lacks mercy if anyone ends up there. So in my prayers I try to focus on the positive (whistling past graveyards).

I think of the King and ’ I and whistle a happy tune’, or follow Johnny Mercer:

“You’ve got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between”

If you prefer to quote the Bible:
"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (NRSV, Tit 3:4,5).

I believe that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy are so intertwined as to be ONE.

Some seem to think that some will receive Divine Justice, or at least their “conception” of Divine Justice and others will receive Divine Mercy while I think/believe that ALL will receive BOTH.