- Status
O
One
Guest
Nah, I’m not saying that there’s nothing after death. If I said anything along those lines, I’d be saying that there’s nothing. (Not that I said that…)Now if you said that there was *nothing *after death, that would be heretical.
O
One
Guest
Why do we say, “Our Father, who…”?
D
djeter
Guest
Have you ever read Dante? Most of what he wrote forms our ideas of Heaven and Hell. For a quick review, a “best of” four writers on the topic, check out here:
payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/22/my-notes-on-dante/
The Inferno And Today’s Society
That the Inferno is a picture of human society in a state of sin and corruption, everybody will readily agree. And since we are today fairly well convinced that society is in a bad way and not necessarily evolving in the direction of perfectibility, we find it easy enough to recognize the various stages by which the deep of corruption is reached. Futility; lack of a living faith; the drift into loose morality, greedy consumption, financial irresponsibility, and uncontrolled bad temper; a self-opinionated and obstinate individualism; violence, sterility, and lack of reverence for life and property including one’s own; the exploitation of sex, the debasing of language by advertisement and propaganda, the commercializing of religion, the pandering to superstition and conditioning of people’s minds by mass-hysteria and ‘spell-binding’ of all kinds, venality and string –pulling in public affairs, hypocrisy, dishonesty in material things, intellectual dishonesty, the fomenting of discord (class against class, nation against nation) for what one can get out of it, the falsification and destruction of all the means of communication; the exploitation of the lowest and stupidest mass-emotions; treachery even to the fundamentals of kinship, country, the chosen friend, and the sworn allegiance; these are the all-too-recognizable stages that lead to the cold death of society and the extinguishing of all civilized relations.
Dorothy Sayers, Introductory Papers on Dante
On the Divine Comedy
The Divine Comedy suggests a love story: a tale of sweethearts beyond the grave, Dante and Beatrice, legendary lovers, divided by death, reunite in a poetic afterlife. In fact it is a truer love story: that of a dispossessed soul learning the meaning of life and finding the grace to love that meaning. Attaining that kind of love depends on developing “the good of the intellect,” Dante wrote… a tale for those who have dreamed of creating something that seems beyond them.
Dante In Love — Harriet Rubin
…and much more
Regards
dj
payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/22/my-notes-on-dante/
The Inferno And Today’s Society
That the Inferno is a picture of human society in a state of sin and corruption, everybody will readily agree. And since we are today fairly well convinced that society is in a bad way and not necessarily evolving in the direction of perfectibility, we find it easy enough to recognize the various stages by which the deep of corruption is reached. Futility; lack of a living faith; the drift into loose morality, greedy consumption, financial irresponsibility, and uncontrolled bad temper; a self-opinionated and obstinate individualism; violence, sterility, and lack of reverence for life and property including one’s own; the exploitation of sex, the debasing of language by advertisement and propaganda, the commercializing of religion, the pandering to superstition and conditioning of people’s minds by mass-hysteria and ‘spell-binding’ of all kinds, venality and string –pulling in public affairs, hypocrisy, dishonesty in material things, intellectual dishonesty, the fomenting of discord (class against class, nation against nation) for what one can get out of it, the falsification and destruction of all the means of communication; the exploitation of the lowest and stupidest mass-emotions; treachery even to the fundamentals of kinship, country, the chosen friend, and the sworn allegiance; these are the all-too-recognizable stages that lead to the cold death of society and the extinguishing of all civilized relations.
Dorothy Sayers, Introductory Papers on Dante
On the Divine Comedy
The Divine Comedy suggests a love story: a tale of sweethearts beyond the grave, Dante and Beatrice, legendary lovers, divided by death, reunite in a poetic afterlife. In fact it is a truer love story: that of a dispossessed soul learning the meaning of life and finding the grace to love that meaning. Attaining that kind of love depends on developing “the good of the intellect,” Dante wrote… a tale for those who have dreamed of creating something that seems beyond them.
Dante In Love — Harriet Rubin
…and much more
Regards
dj
O
One
Guest
I’m wondering: By saying that people choose to go to hell, is that not a way of effectively reconciling one’s belief in hell with the belief in an all-good, benevolent, loving God? I think so, for one of the perpetual problems in maintaining such a belief system is resolving that kind of paradox.
This effectively takes the “blame” off of God, and places it squarely on the human being. But I wonder the same thing that people for centuries have wondered: If God so loves the world (and the people in it), then why would he structure things in such a way as to necessitate Hell?
O
One
Guest
Seems as though we agree: Hell is a state, a state of mind, and this is reflected in the condition of today’s world, as outline in the first quote. Certainly no disagreement on my part, if that’s the premise for posting the piece.
T
tonyrey
Guest
They don’t consent to be punished. They punish themselves.
This is a legalistic concept of God as a Judge rather than an infinitely loving Father.
Hell is not a place but a state.
You are not tortured. You enjoy being totally independent but your independence is bitter because it isolates you from Love.
There is no contract. We know perfectly well the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, love and selfishness. It is absurd to believe we can be the unfortunate victims of a trap set by a cruel Monster. We are given unconditional freedom to choose our own destiny - with full awareness of the consequences. We live for ourselves or we live for others…
D
Detales
Guest
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" ~Mark Twain
“A religion can no more afford to degrade its Devil than to degrade its God.” ~Havelock Ellis
Christianity operates on a foundational premise that the sole/soul purpose of our Earthly existence is to show, to us, presumably, how good God is, by earning a reward in the afterlife, that reward being equal for everyone, ( Matt 20, 1-16.) To accomplish this, God puts the entire onus of educating the entirety of Mankind–in from one to three years,–on His one and only Son, who unlike Issac, isn’t saved at the last moment. That shows the seriousness of the matter, as a God who would allow the death of his own Son isn’t fooling around. But The Son, Jesus, gets not only to come back and live again, but to rise up to heaven, which must be a place, because He went up.
So that must mean that there is another place, down, where heaven isn’t. So some time in the future, after some mysterious length of time, there is the end of the world. At that time everybody comes back, and get sorted up and down according to how closely they followed Jesus’ teaching, provided they know about it. If they didn’t, they would go up, (which makes me wonder why there are missionaries,) So now, after it’s all over, we all either are with God or with Satan, and it’s for keeps.
If we look at this story and weren’t there, we have to wonder, as did those who were, and didn’t go for it, how much is literal and how much is symbolic. Also remember that only a small portion of mankind has so far heard this story, not to mention all those other civilizations out there who either didn’t “fall,” or did, and need a Redeemer. We have in that case a lot of work to do, unless the adult Jesus either reincarnated (oops) as did His Mother (oops) or arrived full blown on the scene to preach the one and only way. I guess then He has to be crucified again and resurrect again. I’m not sure how all that works.
Anyway, Either we are the only ones ever in the universe ever ever, despite there being more stars within our vision than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the world, and over 300 exoplanets just in our neighborhood, so far as we can count this moment. Or there are more folks out there with souls that need saving. But let’s stick to our own little embattled blue marble. And lets stick with infinite torture, since that is our them, and weather we wish to consent to it.
No person, however deranged or evil in the eyes of others, ever does anything other than what they perceive as good for themselves. The problem comes in when someone has to pay the price of what is good for someone who is not them. If Cain’s way had prevailed, we would all be at each other’s throats for what was personally good for us and those whom we perceived as “ours.” We would have wars for the possession of goods, territory, people or not people, ideologies, oil, money, resources, or the best place to park.
But we have rules, and for a very few elect of us, those rules came directly without interruption or alteration from God’s mouth. So we know how to behave and what to do to be good and enjoy being with God after we die. At this moment that means that nominally 1/6th of the world population has the straight goods after 2000 years of effort led by the Son of God Himself. And that is provided that all 981.5 million of us are practicing, devout, Catholics. I hope that the Parrish I live in is not exemplary of others, in the world. Judging by their arrival and departure times and state of dress, I would have to come up with a number lower than 1/6th of the present population who will be saved.
So, by the Church, as far as I can tell, a whole lot of us are volunteering for the frying pan. Eternal punishment, or separation from God, or whatever, seems an easy choice to make. What is wrong with this picture? Toneyrey says "*There is no contract. We know perfectly well the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, love and selfishness. It is absurd to believe we can be the unfortunate victims of a trap set by a cruel Monster. We are given unconditional freedom to choose our own destiny - with full awareness of the consequences. We live for ourselves or we live for others… * I guess I’m asking who it is who knows the full consequences and on what grounds?
Is it feral children who can’t even learn to speak? Is it the nominally 17% of the world religious population that are Catholics who may or may not be up on their catechism? Is it the other 83% who may have heard, or not, of Christianity to some degree or other? Who are all these people who know the exact meaning of the word of God? Are they the Catholics who bicker amongst themselves here and are uncharitable to those who question them on historic or scholarly grounds?
So please tell me who is the God who set up these conditions that are impossible for the assimilation of Catholicism on the planet, let alone off it? And am I who will not accept the Church’s version of history as true, who yet daily worship God, bow in astonished gratitude daily, serve my neighbors socially and politically, and do what I can through my art to elevate the soul propensities of my audience to what is highest in their awareness, am I going to your hell? Is the bliss I feel at the ordinariness of daily life my punishment because I am not Catholic?
Perhaps it is time to admit that though religion may be about an imagined God, God has not anything to do with religion save as a shadow. God knows nothing of you and me personally, but is the Light to the very ability to think erroneously about the Love that IS. If there is a hell, it is the state of thinking that dogmas, rules, canons, Scriptures, and traditions can do anything but point a finger in the right direction, provided the finger is not crooked.
“A religion can no more afford to degrade its Devil than to degrade its God.” ~Havelock Ellis
Christianity operates on a foundational premise that the sole/soul purpose of our Earthly existence is to show, to us, presumably, how good God is, by earning a reward in the afterlife, that reward being equal for everyone, ( Matt 20, 1-16.) To accomplish this, God puts the entire onus of educating the entirety of Mankind–in from one to three years,–on His one and only Son, who unlike Issac, isn’t saved at the last moment. That shows the seriousness of the matter, as a God who would allow the death of his own Son isn’t fooling around. But The Son, Jesus, gets not only to come back and live again, but to rise up to heaven, which must be a place, because He went up.
So that must mean that there is another place, down, where heaven isn’t. So some time in the future, after some mysterious length of time, there is the end of the world. At that time everybody comes back, and get sorted up and down according to how closely they followed Jesus’ teaching, provided they know about it. If they didn’t, they would go up, (which makes me wonder why there are missionaries,) So now, after it’s all over, we all either are with God or with Satan, and it’s for keeps.
If we look at this story and weren’t there, we have to wonder, as did those who were, and didn’t go for it, how much is literal and how much is symbolic. Also remember that only a small portion of mankind has so far heard this story, not to mention all those other civilizations out there who either didn’t “fall,” or did, and need a Redeemer. We have in that case a lot of work to do, unless the adult Jesus either reincarnated (oops) as did His Mother (oops) or arrived full blown on the scene to preach the one and only way. I guess then He has to be crucified again and resurrect again. I’m not sure how all that works.
Anyway, Either we are the only ones ever in the universe ever ever, despite there being more stars within our vision than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the world, and over 300 exoplanets just in our neighborhood, so far as we can count this moment. Or there are more folks out there with souls that need saving. But let’s stick to our own little embattled blue marble. And lets stick with infinite torture, since that is our them, and weather we wish to consent to it.
No person, however deranged or evil in the eyes of others, ever does anything other than what they perceive as good for themselves. The problem comes in when someone has to pay the price of what is good for someone who is not them. If Cain’s way had prevailed, we would all be at each other’s throats for what was personally good for us and those whom we perceived as “ours.” We would have wars for the possession of goods, territory, people or not people, ideologies, oil, money, resources, or the best place to park.
But we have rules, and for a very few elect of us, those rules came directly without interruption or alteration from God’s mouth. So we know how to behave and what to do to be good and enjoy being with God after we die. At this moment that means that nominally 1/6th of the world population has the straight goods after 2000 years of effort led by the Son of God Himself. And that is provided that all 981.5 million of us are practicing, devout, Catholics. I hope that the Parrish I live in is not exemplary of others, in the world. Judging by their arrival and departure times and state of dress, I would have to come up with a number lower than 1/6th of the present population who will be saved.
So, by the Church, as far as I can tell, a whole lot of us are volunteering for the frying pan. Eternal punishment, or separation from God, or whatever, seems an easy choice to make. What is wrong with this picture? Toneyrey says "*There is no contract. We know perfectly well the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, love and selfishness. It is absurd to believe we can be the unfortunate victims of a trap set by a cruel Monster. We are given unconditional freedom to choose our own destiny - with full awareness of the consequences. We live for ourselves or we live for others… * I guess I’m asking who it is who knows the full consequences and on what grounds?
Is it feral children who can’t even learn to speak? Is it the nominally 17% of the world religious population that are Catholics who may or may not be up on their catechism? Is it the other 83% who may have heard, or not, of Christianity to some degree or other? Who are all these people who know the exact meaning of the word of God? Are they the Catholics who bicker amongst themselves here and are uncharitable to those who question them on historic or scholarly grounds?
So please tell me who is the God who set up these conditions that are impossible for the assimilation of Catholicism on the planet, let alone off it? And am I who will not accept the Church’s version of history as true, who yet daily worship God, bow in astonished gratitude daily, serve my neighbors socially and politically, and do what I can through my art to elevate the soul propensities of my audience to what is highest in their awareness, am I going to your hell? Is the bliss I feel at the ordinariness of daily life my punishment because I am not Catholic?
Perhaps it is time to admit that though religion may be about an imagined God, God has not anything to do with religion save as a shadow. God knows nothing of you and me personally, but is the Light to the very ability to think erroneously about the Love that IS. If there is a hell, it is the state of thinking that dogmas, rules, canons, Scriptures, and traditions can do anything but point a finger in the right direction, provided the finger is not crooked.
T
tonyrey
Guest
In Hell there is no horrific torture, no never-ending flames, no insanity - just self-inflicted misery. The damned are not insane but perfectly lucid. Even in this world we see how pride, selfishness and the lust for power dominate some people to such an extent that they cause others to suffer and die as a result of their cruelty and lack of compassion. In Hell the damned are willing to endure the misery of being isolated from God because they derive great pleasure and satisfaction from having absolute control over their own destiny and not having to acknowledge allegiance to anyone but themselves. To deny that Hell exists is to reject the reality of evil…
D
Detales
Guest
So those in hell are actually enjoying the pleasure of their pride? For them hell is subjectively a “good” place? I guess that goes along with “Ignorance is bliss,” and might explain why I feel very happy most of the time. Another problem solved.
As for good and evil, that is a polar invention of the dualistic nature of subject/object awareness at our particular level of perception. Eating is good for the lion, not good for the gazelle. Is that it? Who thought that up, anyway? Maybe we come back as animals, and that is our hell. A million mosquitos each as reindeer on the tundra, parasites, being hunted, eaten alive, fished, poisoned, extincted by fireballs and volcanos. Squished by shoes in corners. Maybe the whole scenario is here on Earth already?
Or what about just being treated like an an animal? Dying in old age homes all alone, being kept alive by doctors who are sworn to look after your well being when all you wish is a dignified passing. Genocide. Inquisition. Terrorism. Trauma. Have you ever been in pain without anesthetic, or had to watch someone who couldn’t get any? Have you any idea what happens to your sense of time when you are suffering from severe trauma?
I fear that your theological assignation of where hell might be and to whom it happens might be lacking in a bit of perspective. Some people on here remind me of the grilling that WJ Bryan underwent at the hands of Clarence Darrow at the Scopes trial. In the film version, after failing to competently answer a question, Bryan says “I don’t think about the things I don’t think about.” Darrow retorts “Do you think about the things you do think about?!” Merlin was right: “Think Arthur; THINK!”
But think about who and what you are in Reality, not according to what someone told you is the way the world is. You could as well have been a Muslim or a Shintoist or anything but a Catholic. You would still, in any case, be “made in the image and likeness of God.” But in THAT Holy name, why do you think that a religion bent on dualism can tell you that which you can know infinitely better by looking at yourself critically. IF you are indeed the image and likeness of God you claim to be, then everything you need to know is extant and available for your scrutiny as Self/Soul. Instead of subscribing to a veiled, symbolic and historically altered exoteric and superimposed belief system, why not subscribe to the Way of the Ancients who went direct?
Jesus Himself was demonstrably one of Them, save that His life was usurped and made into a religion. Think about that. Original revelations invariably deteriorate when canonized and dogmatized. Don’t mistake the Son of God for a person who lived two millenia ago. You will never find “salvation” in a book or a system of belief. You must pass through your own dark night of the soul to be “born” again, so that the second death will have no sting. It is a dangerous path, but when you face yourself at your own judgment, you will hold your own banner, and show your own blood, and have earned your own stripes in the company of those Saints and Sages of the Ages who saw clearly. Jesus would love you for it.
As for good and evil, that is a polar invention of the dualistic nature of subject/object awareness at our particular level of perception. Eating is good for the lion, not good for the gazelle. Is that it? Who thought that up, anyway? Maybe we come back as animals, and that is our hell. A million mosquitos each as reindeer on the tundra, parasites, being hunted, eaten alive, fished, poisoned, extincted by fireballs and volcanos. Squished by shoes in corners. Maybe the whole scenario is here on Earth already?
Or what about just being treated like an an animal? Dying in old age homes all alone, being kept alive by doctors who are sworn to look after your well being when all you wish is a dignified passing. Genocide. Inquisition. Terrorism. Trauma. Have you ever been in pain without anesthetic, or had to watch someone who couldn’t get any? Have you any idea what happens to your sense of time when you are suffering from severe trauma?
I fear that your theological assignation of where hell might be and to whom it happens might be lacking in a bit of perspective. Some people on here remind me of the grilling that WJ Bryan underwent at the hands of Clarence Darrow at the Scopes trial. In the film version, after failing to competently answer a question, Bryan says “I don’t think about the things I don’t think about.” Darrow retorts “Do you think about the things you do think about?!” Merlin was right: “Think Arthur; THINK!”
But think about who and what you are in Reality, not according to what someone told you is the way the world is. You could as well have been a Muslim or a Shintoist or anything but a Catholic. You would still, in any case, be “made in the image and likeness of God.” But in THAT Holy name, why do you think that a religion bent on dualism can tell you that which you can know infinitely better by looking at yourself critically. IF you are indeed the image and likeness of God you claim to be, then everything you need to know is extant and available for your scrutiny as Self/Soul. Instead of subscribing to a veiled, symbolic and historically altered exoteric and superimposed belief system, why not subscribe to the Way of the Ancients who went direct?
Jesus Himself was demonstrably one of Them, save that His life was usurped and made into a religion. Think about that. Original revelations invariably deteriorate when canonized and dogmatized. Don’t mistake the Son of God for a person who lived two millenia ago. You will never find “salvation” in a book or a system of belief. You must pass through your own dark night of the soul to be “born” again, so that the second death will have no sting. It is a dangerous path, but when you face yourself at your own judgment, you will hold your own banner, and show your own blood, and have earned your own stripes in the company of those Saints and Sages of the Ages who saw clearly. Jesus would love you for it.
D
Detales
Guest
Can you explain the part underlined? How does that work?
J
jorgeraul3
Guest
Just because something can be perceived as torture it doesn’t make it so. Keeping a drug addict clean detoxifies him, it is one of the steps to cure him from his illness. This suffering isn’t a torture, it’s a healing. The same as for our lives, suffering sometimes is necessary to cleanse us.I think that if we had a real drug addict here, and offered him the choice, that he might very well say, that the real torture would be to keep the drugs away from him. (And, yes, I have seena drug addict in need of a fix. I know whereof I speak).
On the opposite end when an addict goes on a drug binge it becomes torture, not only for himself but for everyone that loves him. There are very few things as torturous as loosing your free will. If you could see inside an addict you would be able to see hell on earth.
T
tonyrey
Guest
Thank you for all your ideas. I’m singling out one of them so that we don’t deviate from the OP. Does the fact that eating is good for the lion and not good for the gazelle imply that good and evil are human inventions? Or does it demonstrate that all life presupposes dependence on other forms of life. How could living organisms survive on a solely mineral diet? If they could would that be superior to the present system? To believe it is intrinsically wrong and evil for a lion to eat a gazelle is certainly unrealistic and presupposes an ability to design a better world than the one we inhabit. It is the typical view of a city dweller living in an artificial environment cushioned from the facts of nature imposing man’s values on reality. Conflict, competition and death are at the very core of life. So what? Does that mean life should never have been created?
D
Detales
Guest
“Does the fact that eating is good for the lion and not good for the gazelle imply that good and evil are human inventions?” Yes, if you call it a fact and ascribe those values.
"*Or does it demonstrate that all life presupposes dependence on other forms of life.*Yes. Each level of awareness includes and transcends the forms it incorporates.
“How could living organisms survive on a solely mineral diet?” Certain lichens, bacteria, etc. found on rocks, miles deep in the Earth, near “black smokers” on the sea floor, or such places as hot acid or alkaline pools in Yellowstone National Park. Plants.
"If they could would that be superior to the present system? IMO, no.
“To believe it is intrinsically wrong and evil for a lion to eat a gazelle is certainly unrealistic and presupposes an ability to design a better world than the one we inhabit.” If you say so. I gave that as an example of the natureof human value judgement. How did you get to that being intrinsically wrong and implying I belive that, if I read you correctly?
“It is the typical view of a city dweller living in an artificial environment cushioned from the facts of nature imposing man’s values on reality.” Exactly my point. We project. As Mark Twain said, man isn’t a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal. This has been known for thousands of years and is the reason for the dictum to Know Thyself.
“*Conflict, competition and death are at the very core of life. So what? Does that mean life should never have been created? *” They appear to be intrinsic dynamics of living and of growth. They are what they are. LIFE was never created, it ISand appears from the perspective of mortal mind to have form.
"*Or does it demonstrate that all life presupposes dependence on other forms of life.*Yes. Each level of awareness includes and transcends the forms it incorporates.
“How could living organisms survive on a solely mineral diet?” Certain lichens, bacteria, etc. found on rocks, miles deep in the Earth, near “black smokers” on the sea floor, or such places as hot acid or alkaline pools in Yellowstone National Park. Plants.
"If they could would that be superior to the present system? IMO, no.
“To believe it is intrinsically wrong and evil for a lion to eat a gazelle is certainly unrealistic and presupposes an ability to design a better world than the one we inhabit.” If you say so. I gave that as an example of the natureof human value judgement. How did you get to that being intrinsically wrong and implying I belive that, if I read you correctly?
“It is the typical view of a city dweller living in an artificial environment cushioned from the facts of nature imposing man’s values on reality.” Exactly my point. We project. As Mark Twain said, man isn’t a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal. This has been known for thousands of years and is the reason for the dictum to Know Thyself.
“*Conflict, competition and death are at the very core of life. So what? Does that mean life should never have been created? *” They appear to be intrinsic dynamics of living and of growth. They are what they are. LIFE was never created, it ISand appears from the perspective of mortal mind to have form.
O
Oreoracle
Guest
Is there any significant difference between giving someone the ability to harm themselves and harming them yourself? Loving parents minimize the chances their child will harm themselves. God is praised precisely because he maximizes the chance of harm (“He allows perfect freedom.”). I’m sure that, if my parents had such a power, they would eliminate the possibility of harm being brought to me by myself or others, that’s how loving they are.
The Bible describes him as both. Contradictory roles, eh?
You are in the minority of Christians regarding this belief. Every Christian I’ve ever talked to in person believes Hell is a place.
How can I enjoy something that feels bitter?
It is silly to believe that because I don’t serve God, I don’t serve others. That’s like saying that Americans who disliked Bush while he was President didn’t serve America. Bogus.
J
jorgeraul3
Guest
How many parents allow their children to do things that are potentially dangerous. Allowing you to play across the street at a friends house, ride a bike on the street, go to a party they thought was a bad idea, go out at night with friends…
Parents allow this because of their love. An imperfect love, how much more so with a perfect love…
O
One
Guest
That is an excellent point!
I would be interested in knowing how doctrine unpacks this one, really. My impression has always been that Hell is believed to be a place where one might go after death, and if it is not a physical place, then it is a state of mind – right? – but mind ceases to exist upon our death.
Oh… souls go to heaven or hell? Can anyone point to a soul?
~~
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