Can We Truly Consent to Infinite Torture?

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Jesus and the Holy Spirit are on earth with us.
Can you explain the part underlined? How does that work?
Jesus sent His Holy Spirit - read about the descent of the Holy Spirit, I can find the verses if you want but I don’t know them off-hand. When we are confirmed we receive the Holy Spirit. He guides us in everything if we listen to Him. He doesn’t speak audibly, He speaks to our hearts. It is all quite complicated and yet so simple. I have difficulty explaining it because I have trouble listening to the Spirit.

As for Jesus being here on earth with us, we could start a debate on where the physical body of Jesus is but let’s not (at least not in this thread). Perhaps it isn’t proper to say Jesus is here because He sent His Spirit and so speaks to us through the Spirit. But God is one in three persons so it gets hairy again.

Basically my point is, we don’t have to die to experience the love of Christ. We just have to be open and obedient to His Spirit which is His guiding light to a fallen world.
 
Some-one can’t “choose” to reject a God that doesn’t exist. It’s logically impossible from the athiests standpoint.
Sure that’s logical. But your choosing to believe God doesn’t exist.
The final responsibility has alway’s and will alway’s lie with God. We never chose to exist, and we never chose free will. Regardless of what we then do with life and free will, the choice to exist was never ours to begin with.
Parents are not responsible for what their adult children do. We are all children but can never hope to grow up to be God, so we are judged according to our adult choices. And yes some who are adults by age are never adults by knowledge.
Call life a gift if you want, but it is certainly not a gift given with unconditional love, nor is it a gift for those that with all sincerity, simply got it wrong in 1 finite lifetime and suffer eternally for it.

As far as I’m concerned, a god that chooses to create something with the knowlege it will suffer eternally due to a bad choice, is not a God I could ever love or worship.

I see a lot of the stock standard answers to this question, as though people learn this off by rote, but seem to be genuinely lacking in concern for those that make a mistake in their choice of God, religion or un-belief.
Remember with Catholicism, with knowledge comes responsibility. That means a person is not responsible for their choices until they have gained knowledge that they are wrong. This belief is not held by all Christians - most Protestants believe responsibility comes regardless of knowledge.
 
Here’s a point I don’t think anyone’s brought up yet.

Jesus descended into hell and rose again on the third day.

Jesus took the punishment of hell that we deserve and He doesn’t upon Himself. If a friend breaks his/her leg isn’t it sufficient that he/she tells you it hurts without having to experience it yourself.

Jesus tells us hell sucks - that’s sufficient knowledge of the consequences for me.
 
Hmmmm… Interesting interpretation. May have another one, but no time now.
 
Sorry that I’m late to this party. Work.
What evidence is there that the mind ceases to exist after death? How exactly would you define the mind? Can you really point to your mind?
What evidence is there to suggest that the mind doesn’t cease to exist after death? Does anyone know of any people who have passed away and talked to anyone from the great beyond? (And if so, how can we discern if that wasn’t just a production of the living person’s mind?)

Sure, I can point to mind. But I’ll ask again, can you point to a soul?

I’m sure you know as well as I do that one cannot quantify the mind, or consciousness. The best we can hope for – at this time – is to look at exterior evidence of internal mental activity, such as is seen with EEGs, anecdotal reporting, etc. While scientists come up with fascinating findings when they do things like mapping activated brain regions when a stimulus is applied, mind/consciousness is still quite a scientific mystery.

But, at the very least, there IS that external evidence for mind.

Show me similar externally-observable, empirical evidence that would suggest that “souls” exist. I know of not one legitimate case that can stand up to scientific scrutiny, despite all the hoopla about channeling, ghost-busting, and the like.

So, given the evidence, which seems more likely, mind or souls? Otherwise put, why would one believe in “souls” that have an “afterlife” if there is absolutely no reasonable evidence for it? (Other than, of course, belief in doctrine.) We can believe in “mind” because we can generate evidence of mind’s activity.

Now, if you ask me what mind is, that’s a completely different topic, and one likely not suited to the OP, nor is that anything I would choose to discuss with you.

~
 
Sorry for the delay. I was out golfing.
I dunno. How did he turn water into wine? When magic can be used, no explanations are necessary (or possible, it seems).
How do you suppose God created the universe, then? I always hear that he made it out of nothing (because he’s just that powerful…), and I think we can agree that making something out of nothing is a violation of the identity property. If God can violate the self-evident claim that nothing equals/yields nothing, it would seem that he can perform logically contradictory actions.
It ''s not a question of whether you agree or disagree with my beliefs but whether you opt for good or evil.
Just out of curiosity, what happens to those who simply wish to lead a quiet life away from others? Saying that people can only do good or bad things is, from my perspective, a false dichotomy.
 
I’m sure you see the irony in this. 😃
There is a difference. I’m intolerant of certain ideas. The Church is intolerant of certain (most) people. Which type of intolerance is more likely to lead to evil?
But are you familiar with a culture that has sustained atheism – or even agnosticism – for 3000+ years?
No. Does it really matter?
I never said that Christianity was true because it is respectable.
I never said you did.
But I am a Roman Catholic because I believe the claims of Catholicism are true.
I feel we’re going in circles. I asked for you to rationally justify your belief, and you said that you felt its respectable, 3000+ year old culture was sufficient justification (for you personally). Now you say that Catholicism’s respectable culture has nothing to do with it, and you are again claiming to believe with no rational justification. Is your belief that Catholicism’s claims are sound just personal?

Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood.
 
I feel we’re going in circles. I asked for you to rationally justify your belief, and you said that you felt its respectable, 3000+ year old culture was sufficient justification (for you personally).
You asked me to rationally justify my belief? You said:
You’re the one that believes in the magical sky daddy without a shred of evidence! How am I supposed to take you seriously when you say something is irrational if you hold such an irrational belief yourself?
Is this what you took to be a request for rational justification? I took it to be a statement of the kind “Only idiots believe in Santa Claus.” I replied in a restrained manner, to the effect that “We’re not talking about Santa Claus; we’re talking about a Being that most intellectuals throughout history, rightly or wrongly, have believed in.”

Why would I justify my belief to you? You seem to think that belief in God is a thing to be mocked, and I feel very little inclination to help you see the truth at the moment. If you show a little humility, I will be more than happy to explain my reasoning to you. I do not believe “proofs” of God to be possible, no more than “proofs” of love or compassion to be possible, but I will gladly share my thoughts on the subject.

But if you think you have suddenly found an impregnable answer (that is undoubtedly true) to one of the biggest questions mankind has ever thought about, please stop bothering me. I’m interested in seeking the truth, with fellow seekers.
 
Why would I justify my belief to you? You seem to think that belief in God is a thing to be mocked, and I feel very little inclination to help you see the truth at the moment.
Neither of us know where the other is coming from, that much is clear.

I never intended to insult you or cause confusion. You seem to be well adjusted and I don’t mean to ridicule your beliefs by calling them irrational (though you would be right if you guessed that I had an agenda). If I had to guess, I would say we both know the value of living and letting live–we know that our understandings and behaviors are not the only routes to truth and goodness. In other words, we are both open-minded individuals, and there is no reason for us to be led to a dead end before the discussion really starts.

That being said, I have an agenda. I do not feel that a belief in God should be mocked. I acknowledge the fact that there are gaps in our understanding and that people will attempt to fill them, rationally or irrationally (it’s really not my place to label such things). However, there is a place to be a truth seeker, as you call it, and a place to admit that you simply don’t have the answers. The Church, throughout its history, has shown that it doesn’t know the difference. The encroachment of the Catholic faith into ethical grounds cannot be ignored any longer. The belief that “bad” people should suffer forever has served to fan the flames of apathy, and the Church has been all too willing to buff this sentiment, glorifying it to raise the morale of Catholic adherents. It’s even come to manifest itself in economics. It is no secret that Church officials love capitalism, the system in which people get what they “deserve.” If a person is poor, it is believed that they simply didn’t try hard enough to attain wealth. This was further exemplified when certain states in the U.S. began to outlaw feeding the homeless.

My agenda is to fend off this apathy…to make people aware of the fact that they often warrant suffering with their religious convictions. You can guess at what created us all you want, but don’t support a religious group that is arrogant enough to believe it should tell others how to act based entirely on a guess.

If you feel that I don’t deserve your time after reading this, then that’s fine. But know that it is not man’s capacity to have faith that I mock and scorn…it is his capacity to turn a blind eye to the suffering of his fellows. Such a thing is disgraceful any way you cut it.
 
Just out of curiosity, what happens to those who simply wish to lead a quiet life away from others? Saying that people can only do good or bad things is, from my perspective, a false dichotomy.
In my opinion, those who simply wish to lead a quiet life away from others and ignore the misery and suffering of others are well on the road to hell. Most of the evil in the world results from doing nothing. So much for your false dichotomy…
 
We can choose to reject love in favour of self-love.
How could you choose to exist if you didn’t exist?!

I didn’t choose to exist. Not sure what you are trying to say here, but it doesn’t invalidate what I’ve said in any way.
Do you wish you didn’t exist and have free will? And so?
Nope. But the fact that I didn’t choose it and according to believers some-thing else did, then that something else (God) is ultimately responsible for this choice that HE/SHE made and not me. Sorry but I don’t see any way around this argument, so not really much point in continuing answering your individual quotes.

I will comment however on the concept of a “childs” choices. I would never give up on my child. I will let them go, but I would alway’s be there for them when they were willing to come back to me.

I never said that I have a problem with free will, or with a God that let’s us make mistakes. In fact, I can say that free-will makes no sense at all, without a God that let’s us make mistakes. What I have a problem with, is a God that gives humans 1 lifetime, a lifetime filled with so many different views, religions and a huge amount of conditioning as a result of our childhood, and then when that God’s “children” make a mistake God will never welcome them back.

How could I, as a human parent, love more than a God? And no excuses of “You cannot put your emotions onto God” or “you cannot know God’s will” suffice as far as I’m concerned. I seem to understand love at a different level than those that embrace a concept of eternal hell.

I would never, ever give up on my child and would give them an eternity to come back to me. IE…they could alway’s choose it. I will let them go, and let them make mistakes but I would do everything I could to get them back onto the right path, and my door would alway’s be open. What kind of “god” would do less than this?

You really haven’t addressed what I’ve said.
 
Mel Stones;5483258 said:
I’ve alway’s wondered why people accept this argument.

If a God chose to forgive us, what reason would a God then have to torture himself in hell for three day’s, so that he could forgive us? Why would a God require a price to be paid for sins, then simply pay the price himself? Why not just get rid of the price and forgive? And why do it 2000 years ago, instead of 200,000 when we first walked out of africa?

It makes absolutely no sense when christ is described in this way. A God could simply just forgive and/or get rid of the price of a sin.
 
Sure that’s logical. But your choosing to believe God doesn’t exist.
I’m not “choosing” to not believe in God. This is often claimed by believers, but athiesm was never a choice for me. What I CHOSE was truth, and an element of love for my fellow man. What the end result was, athiesm.

2 way’s to understand this.

Santa clause. (No I’m not saying God is Santa). You know what it used to be like to believe in Santa, but the day came when you realized it wasn’t true. It was a Sad day, but it was inevitable, because Santa is not real. I dare say, you are not “choosing” to not believe in Santa. You simply think, with a very high degree of probability that he just does not exist. That is athiesm.

In terms of choice, think of it like the Matrix. Neo wanted to know the truth. He was not “told” the truth, he was given a choice about truth. So he chose truth, and ended up waking up in a pod filled with fluid, flushed down a pipe and was destined to spend the rest of his life eating synthetic food. The choice for truth, ended up in a horrifying result, but for the most part(with only 1 exception) all those that took the truth pill, stuck with it, because truth was more important than the lovely life they left behind.

That is what happens when you become an athiest.
Parents are not responsible for what their adult children do. We are all children but can never hope to grow up to be God, so we are judged according to our adult choices. And yes some who are adults by age are never adults by knowledge.
I’ve already addressed this. I never said that God is responsible for individual choices we make. I am saying he is ultimately responsible for our existance(if he is real) and with FULL KNOWLEGE made a choice to create a self-aware and free-willed creature, that he knew would make a mistake and in some way reject him.

For a God to accept those state of affairs eternally, and not(being all powerful) find some-way, through some mechanism to get people back to him, then this is not a loving God. He should not have created in the first place, if he could not take responsibility for his ULTIMATE decision.

Human analogies only work, within a finite lifetime. They do not work, when we are dealing with eternity.
Remember with Catholicism, with knowledge comes responsibility. That means a person is not responsible for their choices until they have gained knowledge that they are wrong. This belief is not held by all Christians - most Protestants believe responsibility comes regardless of knowledge.
It is a good theory. Because quite frankly, a lot of catholics imo are getting it wrong. It is good to know that you will not be held accountable, because you simply didn’t understand.
 
However, there is a place to be a truth seeker, as you call it, and a place to admit that you simply don’t have the answers. The Church, throughout its history, has shown that it doesn’t know the difference.
I would suggest that there are “some” within the church throughout history that did not know the difference, but many did. Often however, what was considered truth was done so with integrity and sincerly and the mistakes were simply a lack of knowlege.

But, I would agree that the church does show a history of denying new knowlege when it contradicted a previously believed “truth”.
The encroachment of the Catholic faith into ethical grounds cannot be ignored any longer. The belief that “bad” people should suffer forever has served to fan the flames of apathy, and the Church has been all too willing to buff this sentiment, glorifying it to raise the morale of Catholic adherents. It’s even come to manifest itself in economics. It is no secret that Church officials love capitalism, the system in which people get what they “deserve.” If a person is poor, it is believed that they simply didn’t try hard enough to attain wealth. This was further exemplified when certain states in the U.S. began to outlaw feeding the homeless.
This I cannot agree with. This MAY be the case(and is) with quite a number of evangelical and pentacostal type churches(the fundies), but it is not the case with Catholics. It may have been in the past , but it is not so for catholics today.

All with wealth and privalege are asked to do more for their fellow man, than those without. Jesus was quite clear about this teaching, and I’m pretty sure most catholics(even those that are now athiest) support this view.

The catholic church provides more medical care and education as an organization than any other in the world. This is not a result of apathy, it’s a result of a common drive to improve life for humanity as a whole.
My agenda is to fend off this apathy…to make people aware of the fact that they often warrant suffering with their religious convictions. You can guess at what created us all you want, but don’t support a religious group that is arrogant enough to believe it should tell others how to act based entirely on a guess.
I do not find catholics to be apathetic at all. I do see it amongst certain believers of many faiths but not generally with catholics. I may have just be lucky enough to meet some nice ones 🙂

I will definately agree however, that given any position of political power, the church will enforce it’s “beliefs” onto a human population. I cannot however say with all sincerity, that I would not do the same if I really was sure of my position. IE…if I was sure that marrying 9 yr old girls off to 50 yr old men was wrong(I’m sure of this), I would make it illegal regardless of how many dirty old men wanted to do it.

There is a limit we all have, when it comes to enforcing our views onto others. It would alway’s be preferred however, that we change the hearts and minds of mankind so that people are not forced to make certain choices.

This begins with knowlege. 🙂
 
I’m not “choosing” to not believe in God. This is often claimed by believers, but athiesm was never a choice for me. What I CHOSE was truth, and an element of love for my fellow man. What the end result was, athiesm.

2 way’s to understand this.

Santa clause. (No I’m not saying God is Santa). You know what it used to be like to believe in Santa, but the day came when you realized it wasn’t true. It was a Sad day, but it was inevitable, because Santa is not real. I dare say, you are not “choosing” to not believe in Santa. You simply think, with a very high degree of probability that he just does not exist. That is athiesm.

In terms of choice, think of it like the Matrix. Neo wanted to know the truth. He was not “told” the truth, he was given a choice about truth. So he chose truth, and ended up waking up in a pod filled with fluid, flushed down a pipe and was destined to spend the rest of his life eating synthetic food. The choice for truth, ended up in a horrifying result, but for the most part(with only 1 exception) all those that took the truth pill, stuck with it, because truth was more important than the lovely life they left behind, EVEN IF that lovely life, promised an eternal existance. The truth is a higher power, and for the athiest it may cost them everything including meaning and immortality. Athiests understand very well, the concept of a higher power(even if they don’t actually often realize it themselves).

That is what happens when you become an athiest.

I’ve already addressed this. I never said that God is responsible for individual choices we make. I am saying he is ultimately responsible for our existance(if he is real) and with FULL KNOWLEGE made a choice to create a self-aware and free-willed creature, that he knew would make a mistake and in some way reject him.

For a God to accept those state of affairs eternally, and not(being all powerful) find some-way, through some mechanism to get people back to him, then this is not a loving God. He should not have created in the first place, if he could not take responsibility for his ULTIMATE decision.

Human analogies only work, within a finite lifetime. They do not work, when we are dealing with eternity.

It is a good theory. Because quite frankly, a lot of catholics imo are getting it wrong. It is good to know that you will not be held accountable, because you simply didn’t understand.
 
tonyrey;5481920 said:
We can choose to reject love in favour of self-love.
Firstly, some one who doesn’t think God exists is not rejecting Love. I entirely agree.
I accept the love given to me with a great deal of joy, and I give love and act lovingly even when I don’t feel like it, because it’s a principle that I hold Dear.
Because you are not compelled to love…
However, I simply think love is a result of a biological brain, not a supernatural being.
In other words you believe neither you nor the people you love and who love you are responsible for loving you. It’s just the result of a biological brain and we are compelled to love…:eek:
And 2ndly, most people do NOT behave with a lack of self-love. Even a nun who chooses to dedicate their lives to God, do so because THEY want a good relationship with God and they WANT to serve God. It is a desire based on self-love.
Self-love in itself is not evil. It is good because you should love your neighbour **as **yourself. Self-love is evil when it becomes excessive.
Every single thing you ever do will always be about you…it may be about others also, but there is no such thing as a completely altruistic act.
So if give up your life for others you are motivated by selfishness? Every single thing you ever do will always be about you but it will not always be for you…
I didn’t choose to exist. Not sure what you are trying to say here, but it doesn’t invalidate what I’ve said in any way.
You seem to be blaming your Creator for giving you life and the power to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love…
But the fact that I didn’t choose it and according to believers something else did, then that something else (God) is ultimately responsible for this choice that HE/SHE made and not me.
“ultimately” is the key word. We are ultimately responsible for bringing our children into the world but we are not to blame for their decisions. Would it be better not to hand on the gift of life?
Sorry but I don’t see any way around this argument, so not really much point in continuing answering your individual quotes.
There is a lot of point because you need to explain how you are free and responsible for your choices, especially the freedom to love, and whether you would prefer not to exist rather than have that power.
I will comment however on the concept of a “child’s” choices. I would never give up on my child. I will let them go, but I would always be there for them when they were willing to come back to me.
Why do you think God gives up on His children?
I never said that I have a problem with free will, or with a God that let’s us make mistakes. In fact, I can say that free-will makes no sense at all without a God that let’s us make mistakes.
Excellent!
What I have a problem with, is a God that gives humans 1 lifetime, a lifetime filled with so many different views, religions and a huge amount of conditioning as a result of our childhood, and then when that God’s “children” make a mistake God will never welcome them back.
I’m afraid that is a totally distorted view of a Father who loves us enough to make Himself vulnerable to rejection and hatred.
How could I, as a human parent, love more than a God?
You cannot!
And no excuses of “You cannot put your emotions onto God” or “you cannot know God’s will” suffice as far as I’m concerned.
I totally agree.
I seem to understand love at a different level than those that embrace a concept of eternal hell.
I’m afraid you underestimate the reality of evil and the full implications of free will…
I would never, ever give up on my child and would give them an eternity to come back to me.
That is precisely what God does
.I will let them go, and let them make mistakes but I would do everything I could to get them back onto the right path, and my door would always be open.
That is precisely what Jesus has done for all of us with his infinite love.
What kind of “god” would do less than this?
The Good Shepherd always goes after the lost sheep. There is always joy in heaven over one repentant sinner…
 
I never intended to insult you or cause confusion. You seem to be well adjusted and I don’t mean to ridicule your beliefs by calling them irrational (though you would be right if you guessed that I had an agenda).
Forgiven. 😉
However, there is a place to be a truth seeker, as you call it, and a place to admit that you simply don’t have the answers. The Church, throughout its history, has shown that it doesn’t know the difference.
Interesting claim, though admittedly not my area of expertise. I don’t have time to sort out all of history – which, after all, is written by people with agendas – and figure whether the Church’s actions in each case were justifiable. I know many in the Church have sinned grievously, and I know their sins have had a terrible impact on others. This is true, I imagine, of every major organization or religion that ever existed.
The belief that “bad” people should suffer forever has served to fan the flames of apathy, and the Church has been all too willing to buff this sentiment, glorifying it to raise the morale of Catholic adherents.
You seem to be describing the actions of some Americans who called themselves Catholic in the 20th century. It doesn’t describe the Church today, nor (for the most part) the Church of the distant past.

Personally, I believe that “bad” people go to Heaven, provided they are willing to swallow their pride and admit that they are wrong. I am one such person, I hope. Where do good people go? Well, they don’t go to hell!
It’s even come to manifest itself in economics. It is no secret that Church officials love capitalism, the system in which people get what they “deserve.” If a person is poor, it is believed that they simply didn’t try hard enough to attain wealth. This was further exemplified when certain states in the U.S. began to outlaw feeding the homeless.
To me, this sounds like the “prosperity gospel”, which is Protestant phenomenon. The New Testament talks of poverty as a blessing, and some Catholics (myself included) take it at its word. Give me examples of what you’re talking about.

In my experience, Catholics seek to help the poorest of the poor – although there are certainly many “bourgeois” Catholics who don’t really have much of an idea of justice. In America, we are a church that has been thrown from overzealousness (1940s-1960s) to degeneracy (1970s-1990s), and we’re just beginning to recover. The priesthood, a great asset, is overburdened because of the lack of priests. In short, Catholic America is struggling, but consider the tremendous work it does for the poor despite these struggles.
If you feel that I don’t deserve your time after reading this, then that’s fine. But know that it is not man’s capacity to have faith that I mock and scorn…
This is, by the way, the short answer to why I am a Christian. I am a Christian because I have faith available to me to believe. Despite the fact that I sometimes find some claims of the Church unlikely, I have no trouble believing the central story of salvation to be true. Many, many atheists, I imagine, would believe if they found it possible for them. I find it possible, despite my capacity for doubt, to believe.

I know I am not being deceived by excessive belief in authority, because I am generally inclined to question authority. So what am I being deceived by? Does Christianity act as an excuse for me to do things I already want to? No – quite the opposite, it stands in the way of things I want.

I find it most likely that I am not being deceived. The only thing, in my estimation, that could make me believe such a marvelous and unlikely story as Christianity is God.

This is what we call the “deposit of faith”. For whatever reason, it has been given to me at this point in my life. I trust that all who ask for it will receive it (although perhaps not right away).
 
Dameedna

He could yes, but He made rules and He follows them. He could change rules, but I think it is safe to say He isn’t going to.
There were ways to pay for sins before Christ.

I believe is Santa. Saint Nick was a real person. No he doesn’t come down the chimney with presents but God doesn’t fix the tv when I pray real hard either. He could yes, but He provided other means and follows His own rules.

Knowledge of the heart. You know your heart. God knows your heart. Don’t ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit because your head tells you it isn’t logical. God also requires that we have faith. Yes, He could take away this requirement but again I think it is safe to say He isn’t going to anytime soon.

You believe there are prisons which a person must go to for the rest of their life or even to end it, if they commit a serious offense. You can have this knowledge without experiencing it yourself. Perhaps hell can be compared to prison.
 
I know many in the Church have sinned grievously, and I know their sins have had a terrible impact on others. This is true, I imagine, of every major organization or religion that ever existed.
Agreed. Well, except for the sin part. I don’t believe in sins. 😃

That, of course, is not to say that ‘sinful’ actions haven’t had a terrible impact on others.
You seem to be describing the actions of some Americans **who called themselves Catholic **in the 20th century. It doesn’t describe the Church today, nor (for the most part) the Church of the distant past.
I’m not sure what you think I’m referring to specifically, but it seems that many people simply call themselves Catholic just to gain acceptance (Not to mention confidence. Many seem to feel more secure in their beliefs when they believe a billion others back them up by also holding the label “Catholic.”)
Personally, I believe that “bad” people go to Heaven, provided they are willing to swallow their pride and admit that they are wrong. I am one such person, I hope. Where do good people go? Well, they don’t go to hell!
Good for you! Alas, there are others that scorn this ‘second-chance’ system when I propose it.
To me, this sounds like the “prosperity gospel”, which is Protestant phenomenon. The New Testament talks of poverty as a blessing, and some Catholics (myself included) take it at its word. Give me examples of what you’re talking about.
Here is the first example I found: reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jul-20-Thu-2006/news/8589438.html

I know little about the sects of Protestantism, so I can’t compare it to Catholicism.
In my experience, Catholics seek to help the poorest of the poor – although there are certainly many “bourgeois” Catholics who don’t really have much of an idea of justice. In America, we are a church that has been thrown from overzealousness (1940s-1960s) to degeneracy (1970s-1990s), and we’re just beginning to recover. The priesthood, a great asset, is overburdened because of the lack of priests. In short, Catholic America is struggling, but consider the tremendous work it does for the poor despite these struggles.
It’s the intention of these charitable actions that I question. I’m not going to dig for the quote, but Thomas Aquinas once said that our love for others is only worthwhile because it glorifies God. If God is the only thing that grants inherent value, then are we really helping people to alleviate their suffering, or are we doing it to guarantee our own salvation? Ahem I mean, “to glorify God.”
This is, by the way, the short answer to why I am a Christian. I am a Christian because I have faith available to me to believe. Despite the fact that I sometimes find some claims of the Church unlikely, I have no trouble believing the central story of salvation to be true. Many, many atheists, I imagine, would believe if they found it possible for them. I find it possible, despite my capacity for doubt, to believe.
I know I am not being deceived by excessive belief in authority, because I am generally inclined to question authority. So what am I being deceived by? Does Christianity act as an excuse for me to do things I already want to? No – quite the opposite, it stands in the way of things I want.
I find it most likely that I am not being deceived. The only thing, in my estimation, that could make me believe such a marvelous and unlikely story as Christianity is God.
This is what we call the “deposit of faith”. For whatever reason, it has been given to me at this point in my life. I trust that all who ask for it will receive it (although perhaps not right away).
And you might be right about not being deceived. Personally, I doubt it, because I’ve experienced such beliefs myself. In the end, I figured out that my belief in God was caused by obvious insecurities–fear that no one loves me, fear of death and the nothingness that will follow, etc. A friend helped me realize that it was not a presence I sensed, but loneliness. I was desperate for a friend, and so my mind produced God to ease stress.
 
First of all, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that it exists on a spiritual plane, although this is not what I believe. Catholics need not believe hell is a place, but Catholics must believe hell is a state of being.
P_S,

You are correct. The Catholic can, and probably should, take it as somewhat metaphorical rather than literal.
The phrasing “descend into” hell is a biblical phrasing, many of which they habitually emulate in the Catechism. Maybe they should be more direct about it, but they believe that some things can be best understood through metaphor.
In the spirit of maintaining the allegory suggested by the original writing, the translators continued to use the word “descend” in a lesser, but yet, equally valid sense. From Wikidefinitions bold is mine::

"v.intr.
1.) To move from a higher to a lower place; come or go down.

2.) To slope, extend, or incline downward: “A rough path descended like a steep stair into the plain” (J.R.R. Tolkien).

3.)
…(a) To come from an ancestor or ancestry: He was descended from a pioneer family.
…(b) To come down from a source; derive: a tradition descending from colonial days.
…(c) To pass by inheritance: The house has descended through four generations.

4.) To lower oneself; stoop: “She, the conqueror, had descended to the level of the conquered” (James Bryce).

5.) To proceed or progress downward, as in rank, pitch, or scale: titles listed in descending order of importance; notes that descended to the lower register.

6.) To arrive or attack in a sudden or an overwhelming manner: summer tourists descending on the seashore village."

As anyone can plainly see, the word does not specifically relate to a “place” or a literal “direction;” it is pregnant with meaning! Anyone claiming it is not is either an idiot or flagrantly argumentative. *Sorry, I’m not really sure who you were trying to refute; I hope it wasn’t a friend of mine! :o

Nevertheless, since Heaven, and all of its attributes were thought to be uplifting, it was considered, by the ancients, to be “up”. While Hell, and all if its attributes, were thought to be “down” - the opposite of up. Compared to the people of today, the ancients considered many more things to have significances than we do today. It helps to place their words in their settings.

jd
 
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