Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

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DreadVandal:
No one can be sure that they will be accepted. The Council of Trent defined that. And God’s salvific love is conditional. It is based on repentance and perseverence in faith. It is also conditional on God’s sovereign choice to bestow grace on some and withhold grace from others.
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But doesn’t that then contradict the teaching of “forgiveness?” I have a hard time understanding that God, that is Infinite, is limited and finite.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
But doesn’t that then contradict the teaching of “forgiveness?” I have a hard time understanding that God, that is Infinite, is limited and finite.
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God is not limited. It is not God’s will to unconditionally forgive everyone. We do not fully understand God’s ways, but Scripture reveals that God wills to give effacacious grace to some and bring them to heaven and pass over the rest in order to show his just judgment against sin and evil. Only God knows how this is actually the best of all possible worlds and it is how He is glorified the most.
 
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Nicene:
I would suggest reading Psalms: The practice of the Liturgy of the Hours, Utrechts may be using the old Breviary, if they still practice it (particularly making use of Lectio Divina to immerse yourself in them) is spiritually beneficial. It covers the majority of Psalms in a month, with recognition of feasts and memorials to the Saints, common of Martyrs, common of Doctors, Bishops, Virgins etc.

Particular Psalms will answer your question about whether God changes his mind. Bear in mind that God does not live in linear time, He is in eternity.

But to the subject: From a catholic point of view one does not escape hell.

However I would be interested in hearing from our EO brothers. There is a story in Eastern Orthodoxy of a saint (I forget who it is), a priest who was abused by his superior, upon his death he was given a vision of him in hell. He decided to say Mass for him for a month, and he recieved further visions of him slowly rising out of hell with each Mass given on his behalf.

Any of our EO brothers remember this? If so, who was it and what is the validity of belief among the EO?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Thanks for the suggestions. The Magnificat has also been recommended to me.
 
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Nicene:
I would suggest reading Psalms: The practice of the Liturgy of the Hours, Utrechts may be using the old Breviary, if they still practice it (particularly making use of Lectio Divina to immerse yourself in them) is spiritually beneficial. It covers the majority of Psalms in a month, with recognition of feasts and memorials to the Saints, common of Martyrs, common of Doctors, Bishops, Virgins etc.

Particular Psalms will answer your question about whether God changes his mind. Bear in mind that God does not live in linear time, He is in eternity.

But to the subject: From a catholic point of view one does not escape hell.

However I would be interested in hearing from our EO brothers. There is a story in Eastern Orthodoxy of a saint (I forget who it is), a priest who was abused by his superior, upon his death he was given a vision of him in hell. He decided to say Mass for him for a month, and he recieved further visions of him slowly rising out of hell with each Mass given on his behalf.

Any of our EO brothers remember this? If so, who was it and what is the validity of belief among the EO?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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How do we know that a good God would do all that He could to prevent children from suffering? Maybe a world with suffering children is better than a world without suffering children. Since we have finite minds, we cannot know what the overall good is.
 
I agree that there are certainly people who “deserve” hell, and hell for an eternity. My real question becomes: does a person who rejected God until the time of death, but did not commit “evil” during their lives, suffer hell for eternity?
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Meditate on Romans 2.

To give further thought on the subject. The new world was not discovered for 1500 years after Christs passion and resurrection. What were their possible fates? What was the possible fate of a person who died the day after Christs resurrection in Corinth for example but never had the opportunity to hear the gospel?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Since people mention “unconditional love” quite frequently, I wonder what that means. As a philosopher, I want to know what is being specified by unconditional love. Is unconditional love, love without a reason? i.e. arbitrary love? If there is a reason for love then doesn’t that make it conditioned on that reason? Any thoughts?
 
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DreadVandal:
God is not limited. It is not God’s will to unconditionally forgive everyone. We do not fully understand God’s ways, but Scripture reveals that God wills to give effacacious grace to some and bring them to heaven and pass over the rest in order to show his just judgment against sin and evil. Only God knows how this is actually the best of all possible worlds and it is how He is glorified the most.
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A good God loves.
A better God loves unconditionally.
God is perfect (which by definition is “better”)
Therefore, God loves unconditionally.

So why does God want us to come to him, out of love or out of fear? I would think it was love.

Also, I find it hard for “love” and “judgement” to coexist simultaneously. If you are loving you are not judging, if you are judging, you are not loving, yes?
 
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Nicene:
Meditate on Romans 2.

To give further thought on the subject. The new world was not discovered for 1500 years after Christs passion and resurrection. What were their possible fates? What was the possible fate of a person who died the day after Christs resurrection in Corinth for example but never had the opportunity to hear the gospel?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Good point. This is why it’s hard for me to believe that things are so “cut and dry,” if you get my meaning.
 
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DreadVandal:
Since people mention “unconditional love” quite frequently, I wonder what that means. As a philosopher, I want to know what is being specified by unconditional love. Is unconditional love, love without a reason? i.e. arbitrary love? If there is a reason for love then doesn’t that make it conditioned on that reason? Any thoughts?
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Those are good questions. I’m not entirely sure I fully understand the concept myself. I’ve also heard the term “unrequited love” as a type of unconditional love. I’m thinking it would be good to get a working definition.
 
So why does God want us to come to him, out of love or out of fear? I would think it was love.
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While one way may be preferable would God not accept both? What is fear of God? Fear of eternal punishment, or fear of disappointing your Father who has done so much for you, with particular emphasis on giving His Son for our sins.

Does Gods unconditional love cover deliberate unrepentant sin?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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DreadVandal:
How do we know that a good God would do all that He could to prevent children from suffering? Maybe a world with suffering children is better than a world without suffering children. Since we have finite minds, we cannot know what the overall good is.
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This is a good point.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Those are good questions. I’m not entirely sure I fully understand the concept myself. I’ve also heard the term “unrequited love” as a type of unconditional love. I’m thinking it would be good to get a working definition.
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Ah, now unrequited love! I can help you with that being a romantic myself 😃 Not to get us too far off subject but unrequited love, in essence, is secret love not returned or acknowledged. Let me give you a historical example (dramatic examples abound):

The composer, Anton Bruckner, apparently loved some girl he was teaching but could never make it known. So he pined away and wrote symphonies apparently dedicated a work or two to her secretly. That is unrequited love. It is the bitter sweet pining away in secret for a love one can never have (I must stop at this point since it is bringing back uncomfortable memories of my junior year in high school, “Ah, the band drum major! Totally beautiful and such a commanding voice, “March!!” she would say. I wrote her a love letter after admiring her for months. She summoned me in private and told me of her boyfriend in the army. I was shattered. I spent what was likely 3 months without a smile. Only music and poetry and the foolish fantasies of adolescence.” Ah what mostly bitter (with just a tinge of sweet) memories.
 
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DreadVandal:
How do we know that a good God would do all that He could to prevent children from suffering? Maybe a world with suffering children is better than a world without suffering children. Since we have finite minds, we cannot know what the overall good is.
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Is our suffering offered along with Christs beneficial for others or just for ourselves?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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ReformedCatholic:
This is a good point.
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Thanks, I try to get one in once in awhile. I’m trying to raise my batting average above .300. 👍
 
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Nicene:
While one way may be preferable would God not accept both? What is fear of God? Fear of eternal punishment, or fear of disappointing your Father who has done so much for you, with particular emphasis on giving His Son for our sins.

Does Gods unconditional love cover deliberate unrepentant sin?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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It would seem to me that if the motivation was fear of punishment rather than love, it would seem less genuine. Also, if the motivation was guilt, it just doesn’t seem the same to me either. It’s like why do you want your kids to come to the reading of your will? Because they truly loved you, or because they just wanted what you might give them? Or they were afraid not to come because they might not get their “inheritance?” Or they felt too guilty not to come? To me, any motivation but love implies that something is wrong there.

Ah, good point. Even though we may exhibit a sustained turning away from God, does he still not love us anyway? Seems like He allows us to exercise our free will no matter what, which to me would be a testament to His unconditional love for us. At the same time, I don’t think it would prevent us from going to “hell” if indeed that is what we chose.
 
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Nicene:
Is our suffering offered along with Christs beneficial for others or just for ourselves?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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My first inclination is to say that it is beneficial to others if we offer it up to others. Perhaps that is how a universe with suffering attains a greater good since there are virtues and heroic love that would not be present in a universe without suffering and evil? That’s just a speculation. Any thoughts?
 
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DreadVandal:
God is not limited. It is not God’s will to unconditionally forgive everyone. We do not fully understand God’s ways, but Scripture reveals that God wills to give effacacious grace to some and bring them to heaven and pass over the rest in order to show his just judgment against sin and evil. Only God knows how this is actually the best of all possible worlds and it is how He is glorified the most.
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God doesn’t have to forgive. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness, right? And people who don’t wnat God and heaven shouldn’t be forced to go there. But why would a LOVING, GOOD God create a hell of suffering? Why not let those who reject him to live the way people who reject him live on earth?

If he just wants to be glorified at the sake of the suffering of so many, then how can he say he’s good?
 
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DreadVandal:
How do we know that a good God would do all that He could to prevent children from suffering? Maybe a world with suffering children is better than a world without suffering children. Since we have finite minds, we cannot know what the overall good is.
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This is a cop out. You can’t justify the argument so you’re saying “we’re limited, we don’t know, let’s assume that in the great scheme of things this is the best possible world.”

I might equally say let’s assume this is the worst possible world. Neither of us has evidence. But personally a world without most human beings in eternal torture is in my opinion better than a world with most human beings in eternal torture. Of course I may be limited and wrong.

Jesus said most people will choose the wide way to hell. Infinite suffering, infinite torture for people who may have remarried after their spouse abandoned them, may have used birth control, may have been born homosexual and didn’t hold back their desire for a life-long companion.

How can this be better than allowing those people to live the way we live on earth? Maybe even giving them illness-free bodies, putting them in a fun and exciting universe, and even giving them miracles now and then.

That’s what I’d do if I were the all good God. I would not condem them to an eternity of infinite suffering. I’d sustain them the way I’d sustain mortal sinners on earth.

Of course only the faithful and good would get the ultimate bliss of heaven. And those who did much evil in this world would be punished (for a finite amount of time) and their punishment wouldn’t be to settle scores, but to teach them a lesson and make them realize the evil they did. AND a key point would be that they could always repent, agree to purification, and enter heaven. I would not end the repenting time after death.

This is my opinion, of course, but it seems to me that I just designed a better world. If good is love, caring for others, protecting others, preventing their suffering etc.
 
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DreadVandal:
My first inclination is to say that it is beneficial to others if we offer it up to others. Perhaps that is how a universe with suffering attains a greater good since there are virtues and heroic love that would not be present in a universe without suffering and evil? That’s just a speculation. Any thoughts?
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Col 1:24: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

2 Cor 1:6: If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
It would seem to me that if the motivation was fear of punishment rather than love, it would seem less genuine. Also, if the motivation was guilt, it just doesn’t seem the same to me either. It’s like why do you want your kids to come to the reading of your will? Because they truly loved you, or because they just wanted what you might give them? Or they were afraid not to come because they might not get their “inheritance?” Or they felt too guilty not to come? To me, any motivation but love implies that something is wrong there.
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Isn’t guilt the sign of a good conscience? Can we feel guilty without feeling love for the one we have offended?

Personally I think God will take your return any way it comes with repentance, fear of punishment, guilt or absolute love. In the end God wants you in heaven. Didn’t the prodigal son feel guilt at coming home? But he was accepted by his father.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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