Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

No, by no means does my life (or the life of anyone I know) merit ETERNAL suffering. When I look into my heart, I see someone who wants to love and do good. Am I perfect? By no means. Do I screw up? Of course. Does this make me inherently wretched? No way.

We’re all entitled to some suffering for various reasons, I’m sure, but I’ve gotten plenty of that here on Earth. And I’ve learned from it. But I just don’t buy into the thinking that we’re all depraved and nasty and worthless and all that. How can we be if God created us, and He created us in His image, etc?

There’s got to be some range between perfect and Hitler!

I would submit to you that this is the different between the biblical view of humanity and our modern view. According to Scripture, there is not one human being that does not, from the moment of conception, deserve eternal torment in hell. It doesn’t matter how good we are. The fact that we do not measure up to God’s holiness means that without Christ’s sacrifice on the cross to atone for our sins, we cannot pay God what we owe. What we owe is infinite and so God, in his justice punishes with an infinite punishment all who are unredeemed no matter how seemingly good they are.

I can’t convince you of this in your heart. Only the holy Spirit can.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DreadVandal:

I think that’s a very reasonable and traditional criticism. One response is that since the sin is against an infinite being

Is a sin actually against God, or is it against ourselves?

 

[DreadVandal]

solarwind23:

If you think your life merits eternal suffering I have to conclude that you’re either a serial killer + child molester + torturer + everything evil I can possibly conceive of.

Frankly, even if you are all that, I don’t think you merit infinite punishment. Maybe A LOT of punishment, but not infinity.

If you truly feel that way, and aren’t just saying so for the sake of the argument, then I think you have deep psychological issues that need to be resolved. A normal human being should not see himself as wretched/evil and deserving of nothing but punishment and despair.

If I stood before a good God, I would not be afraid. I would tell this God that I lived my life doing my best not to hurt others and indeed to help them, I would tell that God that since I wasn’t sure he existed due to a lack of evidence I made the best of this life and worked to help others make the best of theirs.

If it turned out that I was sinning and God was really good, I would tell him I was willing to learn, to undrestand, and to change my position.

If I came before a God who was throwing people into hell for things like birth control, remarrying after having been abandoned by spouse etc. I wouldn’t even say anything but turn and go to hell along with most human beings and leave the saints to enjoy watching us suffer.

And in your honest response I see the difference between the classical, magnamimous pagan, aristotilean hero and the Christian saint. It is a paradox that I constant juggle about in my mind for I admire both. Which way to follow? Achilleus or St. Francis of Assissi? Aristotle or St. John of the Cross?

 

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

Is a sin actually against God, or is it against ourselves?

I would say both. Sin is against the image of God in us; which is our true nature precisely because its against God. That is also why the Scriptural command joining love of God and neighbor is the fundamental summary of the whole law. Love of God and love of neighbor are one for God is in our neighbor since our neighbor is God’s image. One cannot love God without love of neighbor and true love of neighbor is not possible without love of God.

 

[DreadVandal]

By the way, I’m enjoying discussing these things with you all. It is stimulating.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DreadVandal:

I would submit to you that this is the different between the biblical view of humanity and our modern view. According to Scripture, there is not one human being that does not, from the moment of conception, deserve eternal torment in hell. It doesn’t matter how good we are. The fact that we do not measure up to God’s holiness means that without Christ’s sacrifice on the cross to atone for our sins, we cannot pay God what we owe. What we owe is infinite and so God, in his justice punishes with an infinite punishment all who are unredeemed no matter how seemingly good they are.

I can’t convince you of this in your heart. Only the holy Spirit can.

You’re right. You’ll never convince me of that. Have you ever seen a baby smile? It deserves eternal damnation?

I don’t understand how we can not measure up to God’s standard when He created us, and to be like Him. It just seems contradictory. This is why I tend to rely on the NT and Christ’s message more than anything else.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DreadVandal:

And in your honest response I see the difference between the classical, magnamimous pagan, aristotilean hero and the Christian saint. It is a paradox that I constant juggle about in my mind for I admire both. Which way to follow? Achilleus or St. Francis of Assissi? Aristotle or St. John of the Cross?

I love the prayer of St. Francis, by the way. That to me is a clear message of how to live one’s life.

 

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

You’re right. You’ll never convince me of that. Have you ever seen a baby smile? It deserves eternal damnation?

I don’t understand how we can not measure up to God’s standard when He created us, and to be like Him. It just seems contradictory. This is why I tend to rely on the NT and Christ’s message more than anything else.

Actually, the NT says that “All have sinned…” Read Romans carefully. St. Paul is clear that everyone deserves damnation. God has consigned all to sin so that he can consign mercy upon all. This is to show that salvation is solely through mercy and not because of anything we’ve done.

Now, traditionally, there are different punishments in hell so that those who died young committing the least of sins would have the lightest punishments. Those (such as evil Popes and evil Bishops) would have the most severe punishments in the most bottom depths of hell.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DreadVandal:

By the way, I’m enjoying discussing these things with you all. It is stimulating.

Yes, it is an excellent discussion!

 

[solarwind23]

DreadVandal:

I think that’s a very reasonable and traditional criticism. One response is that since the sin is against an infinite being, then the sin is infinite in magnitude (since humanity owes its absolute dependence to God).

I have heard this before, and in my opinion Catholicism is inconsistent here.

VENIAL sins also sin against an infinite being. But you can sin venially all your life and still go to heaven. So clearly, not all sins against an infinite being merit infinite punishment unless repented. You don’t need to repent from venial sins.

Already in Catholicism punishment depends on the gravity of the sin, not on who it offends.

Plus, the seriousness of the sin should depend on the sin itself, not on who it offends. If I spit on the sidewalk and it offends an infinite being, does it make it more evil than if it offends a homeless guy?

Leibniz doesn’t talk too much about hell per se but he does argue that this must be the best of all possible worlds.

It still seems like a copout. Leibniz has no way of knowing what other possible worlds could exist. It seems that he starts with the assumption that there is a God who is good, since he would have made the best possible world this must be it.

And you know, THIS world could very well be the best it can be. But no one knows whether hell really exist, I don’t think it does precisely because it is inconsistent with justice and goodness.

The entire eastern tradition of Buddhism/Hinduism doesn’t have hell. They have a karma-type of thing where you are punished for the bad you do and rewarded for the good you do, all in fair proportions.

I have a Jewish friend who told me that his version of Judaism teaches that hell is finite in proportion to the evil you do on earth, if it’s there, since Judaism is unclear about afterlife.

There is a hell in Zoroastrianism, and you go there if your bad deeds outweigh your good deeds. BUT, in the end God releases everyone from hell and purifies everyone, or something along those lines.

Christianity seems unique with its notion of infinite punishment.

 

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

I love the prayer of St. Francis, by the way. That to me is a clear message of how to live one’s life.

Me too. And St. Francis would be the first to think of himself as deserving damnation but being saved by grace and mercy. But here’s the thing. Once I recognize the wickedness that lies deep within my heart, often unconsciously, then I realize that had circumstances been slightly different, I would be on death row and some death row person would be teaching philosophy at a university (and suffering from neurosis ). The evil within the most evil is also within me and so I plead for mercy and fight against it and I know too that I have no grounds for boasting over the criminal, the public sinner, the wicked. Does that mean I condone their evil? No, that at all. But it means that I do not view myself as being interiorly or spiritually superior. But I pray, as we do in our Liturgy every Sunday "I believe Lord and confess that you are the Son of God, come to save sinners, Of Whom I am the greatest …

 

[solarwind23]

DreadVandal:

And in your honest response I see the difference between the classical, magnamimous pagan, aristotilean hero and the Christian saint. It is a paradox that I constant juggle about in my mind for I admire both. Which way to follow? Achilleus or St. Francis of Assissi? Aristotle or St. John of the Cross?

Follow where your conscience leads you. Meditate on it, think deeply about it, and do what you truly believe is good and right. Free yourself as much as possible from the fear of a hell that may or may not exist, or the eternal pleasures of heaven that may or may not exist.

If God exists, I think he keeps himself hidden from us for a reason. Maybe it’s to see us develop, to create a just and good moral system here on earth. Maybe what he wants to see is us standing up on our own two feet, becoming independent, and doing our best even if not always getting it right.

You can’t go wrong if you do what you truly think is good and right. If there is a God who doesn’t reward that and punishes you for not obeying this creed or another, then to hell with that God!

I am very put off by Christian saints because of their apparent rejection of “the world” and “the flesh.” As I see it, if there is a God he put is in THE WORLD, into bodies made of flesh. Somehow I doubt it was so that we could reject it all and spend life praying and mortifying. From my perspective Christian saints had a very negative view of the world and of humanity.

It seems like you have some of that by suggesting that you deserve eternal punishment. Why on earth would you deserve eternal punishment?

 

[solarwind23]

DreadVandal:

Me too. And St. Francis would be the first to think of himself as deserving damnation but being saved by grace and mercy. But here’s the thing. Once I recognize the wickedness that lies deep within my heart, often unconsciously, then I realize that had circumstances been slightly different, I would be on death row and some death row person would be teaching philosophy at a university (and suffering from neurosis ). The evil within the most evil is also within me and so I plead for mercy and fight against it and I know too that I have no grounds for boasting over the criminal, the public sinner, the wicked. Does that mean I condone their evil? No, that at all. But it means that I do not view myself as being interiorly or spiritually superior. But I pray, as we do in our Liturgy every Sunday "I believe Lord and confess that you are the Son of God, come to save sinners, Of Whom I am the greatest …

But is it rational to say that you’re the greatest among sinners? How much evil have you really done?

I read St. Teresa of Avila and she was saying she was wretched and deserving of hell too, all that did was put me off. Why on earth would a nun who prays all day deserve hell? Everything just seemed so negative.

There is so much beauty and good in humanity and “the world.” Look at everything human beings have built, the ideas we’ve come up with, the scientific discoveries we’ve made, the medicine we’ve invented that helps others, the governments with a welfare type of structure that help the poor, heal the sick, democracies and the overthrow of despotic rulers. We’ve been in space, we’re learning so much. We’ve done away with slavery, we recognized the humanity and dignity of women.

Is it really such a big deal that most people can’t control their sexual passions and perhaps eat more than they should? This “evil” is so minimal. I see so much compassion and kindness in human beings. I’ve never met ANYONE who deserves hell.

And the people who are “evil” the serial killers, the pedophiles, the gangsters. Are they really evil or were they perhaps abused as children? Did they perhaps grow up in an atmosphere of crime and drugs not knowing any better?

I don’t see that much evil in the world to be honest. I see far more potential and good. There is evil to be sure, but it comes from systems more than from individuals. Take Mormon polygamy for one, those men subjugate women, kick out young men so an old guy can have 20 young wives. That’s pretty sick and evil, right? Well, those men were once little boys growing up in that system and being indoctrinated into it.

Same with suicide bombers. Pretty evil to blow up innocent civilians, right? But maybe from a young age that boy was told that they were the evil enemy, that God wanted them destroyed, that he would do good if he did it etc. Not so evil anymore, eh?

 

[DreadVandal]

solarwind23:

But is it rational to say that you’re the greatest among sinners? How much evil have you really done?

I read St. Teresa of Avila and she was saying she was wretched and deserving of hell too, all that did was put me off. Why on earth would a nun who prays all day deserve hell? Everything just seemed so negative.

There is so much beauty and good in humanity and “the world.” Look at everything human beings have built, the ideas we’ve come up with, the scientific discoveries we’ve made, the medicine we’ve invented that helps others, the governments with a welfare type of structure that help the poor, heal the sick, democracies and the overthrow of despotic rulers. We’ve been in space, we’re learning so much. We’ve done away with slavery, we recognized the humanity and dignity of women.

Is it really such a big deal that most people can’t control their sexual passions and perhaps eat more than they should? This “evil” is so minimal. I see so much compassion and kindness in human beings. I’ve never met ANYONE who deserves hell.

I don’t know what to say. Its all a matter of perspective I guess.

 

[solarwind23]

DreadVandal:

I don’t know what to say. Its all a matter of perspective I guess.

I edited my post a bit after you responded, but yeah, I guess it is.

Personally, if God sents you to hell for being an average guy, I might just get enough courage to reject such a system and keep you company

I bet your sins are limited to a little bit of selfishness, maybe some gluttony and laziness, maybe a lack of restraint as regards sexual thoughts/actions.

Maybe you lose your temper sometimes, and like to enjoy yourself and have fun instead of selflessly helping others.

If so, maybe that’s not the best way to live, but hey, still better than being a saint who enjoys watching people suffer in hell!

If I were God and a guy like I just described died and came to face me, I’d be like “oh you, you missed a part of the meaning about love and selflessness while thinking those sexual fantacies, but you know what, you also did a lot of good in your life, helped people, contributed to society. I think now I’m going to send you to discover what you missed and why, and after that you can come hang out with me if you feel like it.”

If Hitler came to me I’d be like “I am very angry and upset with you, you did some gravely evil things when you were on earth. In the name of justice you are going to live the life of every person you’ve ever hurt with the hope that you’ll understand the evil you did and your heart will change (this could take thousands of years!) If it changes and you repent and truly become a different man, you can consent to being purified and hang out with me and the average Joe over there. But if you don’t repent and still stand by what you did, I’m still going to sustain you and let you live a plain life like you did on earth because despite all the evil you’ve done you don’t deserve infnite punishment.”

 

[thistle]

solarwind23:

Personally, **if God sents you to hell ** for being an average guy, I might just get enough courage to reject such a system and keep you company

God does not send anyone to Hell. Everyone was created to join him in Heaven. Those who end up in Hell have done so by their own free choice to reject God’s love.

 

[solarwind23]

thistle:

God does not send anyone to Hell. Everyone was created to join him in Heaven. Those who end up in Hell have done so by their own free choice to reject God’s love.

or more accurately through their free choice to remarry after having been abandoned, to have a same sex partner if that’s who they biologically are, to use birth control if NFP doesn’t work for them for whatever reason, to masturbate because they lack the self control etc.

God could allow them to live the way we live here on earth and sustain them the way he sustains mortal sinners here. There’s no need for suffering.

 

[Nicene]

If so, maybe that’s not the best way to live, but hey, still better than being a saint who enjoys watching people suffer in hell!

Just out of curiosity, you’ve said this several times. Where do you get this little bit of stupidity?

On another note, If I believed as you do apparently and my consequences were limited to the mere slap on the wrist I would be any one of the Ghengis Khans, Hitlers, Neros, Diocletians etc. of the world without question. Only a moron wouldn’t take advantage of a sweet deal like that.

If good and bad are relative then there is no reason what so ever not to feed our most base desires and attain them at the expense of others. There is no intrinsic reason to be good at all other than coping out and being a chicken **** for not doing it.

Sending me back God? Thanks, rinse and repeat.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[thistle]

solarwind23:

or more accurately through their free choice to remarry after having been abandoned, to have a same sex partner if that’s who they biologically are, to use birth control if NFP doesn’t work for them for whatever reason, to masturbate because they lack the self control etc.

God could allow them to live the way we live here on earth and sustain them the way he sustains mortal sinners here. There’s no need for suffering.

Its not suffering to love God and keep his commandments. If people choose to reject his love then they are self-inflicting suffering and ultimately damnation.
I hope you are not saying the rewards for sinning should be the same as for not sinning?!

 

[melbourne_guy]

Eternal punishment has been the one thing that has sometimes made me qestion my faith and religion. I always sit up at night thinking about how long forever is and if it would be fair for someone to be torured for enternity. I read in the apocalypse of St.Peter that Peter questions jesus about all the suffering in hell and jesus replies in secret something like, dont worry some day the gates of hell will be opened. Now the apocalypse of St.Peter is VERY heretical, but theres apart of me that wants to think that maybe someday the gates of hell will open.