Can you talk me out of becoming a Catholic?

[Mary_Virginia]

Hello! Now Rich…you crack me up…I loved your response! Mind if I copy that? Lol! And to Spockrates…I think if you follow Spock’s advice in the quote below your question then theres nothing to debate, is there? Please say you don’t have pointy ears…Lol! Sorry…I’ve been on this website way too long today! Seriously though, pray about it and if you “walk away” for awhile as I did, even after much studying, I could NOT stay away…something was missing. But while going through it R.C.I.A - I had so many doubts. I had been to so many different places and listened to people who did not know what they we’re talking about. I felt as if I we’re about to be married and boy did I get cold feet. In the end I had to tell everyone that I appreciated their (name removed by moderator)ut but I had made up my mind and I WOULD NOT be deterred, I joined the Church on May 15th,2010, so I’m a new happy Catholic!! Thats my story and I’m sticking to it!

Mary

 

[JonNC]

You mentioned one of your reasons for staying in your church was your pastor.
I was curious if your staying there is bigger than the pastor and the congregation.

Well, I was just mentioning things that make changing difficult. I 've some wonderful pastors (my dad among them ).

My staying Lutheran to this point has always been about doctrine, not personalities. When I change my view on doctrine, or when the LCMS changes, or odthodox Lutheranism is no longer available, then I would consider a move .

Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

He’s no Lone Ranger when it comes to that.

Jon

I had you in mind as well. I don’t participate in other religious forums, and I’m always curious when I see well-informed non-Catholics such as you and Contarini actively participating on the religious threads here. You, Contarini, Pastor Gary and a few others know a lot more about what the Church really teaches than many Catholics and non Catholics. It’s always a pleasure to read your posts.

I think your feet are wet, but the water’s still too cold.

 

[JonNC]

I had you in mind as well. I don’t participate in other religious forums, and I’m always curious when I see well-informed non-Catholics such as you and Contarini actively participating on the religious threads here. You, Contarini, Pastor Gary and a few others know a lot more about what the Church really teaches than many Catholics and non Catholics. It’s always a pleasure to read your posts.

I think your feet are wet, but the water’s still too cold.

I think Pastor Gary has said re-ordination would probably be a deal breaker for him.

Your comments are very kind, Christine. But if I ever decided to swim, I would give thanks to God for Lutheranism, for it is there I got my swimming lessons.

Peace,
Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

I think Pastor Gary has said re-ordination would probably be a deal breaker for him.

He took the quiz and came out Catholic.

Your comments are very kind, Christine. But if I ever decided to swim, I would give thanks to God for Lutheranism, for it is there I got my swimming lessons.

Peace,
Jon

I would expect anyone who converts to give thanks to their swim teachers. (except Catholics).

 

[twopekinguys]

And I attended RCIA off and on for a couple of years, eventually being a candidate for admission for two months before dropping out. No pressure was ever put on me. In fact I rather wish that the priest and lay catechists *had *given me a hard time about dropping out

Edwin

I am the lay director of RCIA for our parish (I converted 15 yrs ago), and I always tell those that attend our sessions, “You have up until 5 minutes before Easter Vigil starts to back out. After that, you’re in the procession line, and you’re going one way or another. ”

We had a lady a few years ago, that went through the entire RCIA process 4 times. 3 of which, she backed out on Palm Sunday. She said “I just can’t do it.” While we were all sorry to see her go, we knew the seed had been planted. Ultimately, the 4th time, she succeeded.

We have found that not pressuring someone has a better effect than pressure. Without us in their ear telling them to come back, they tend to listen to the Holy Spirit alot more. They pray more, and dodge phone calls and emails less.

We realized a long time ago, that it isn’t the RCIA that brings people into the Church, it is the Holy Spirit.

You can’t **force **someone to become Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc., all you can do is help.

 

[qui_est_ce]

We realized a long time ago, that it isn’t the RCIA that brings people into the Church, it is the Holy Spirit.

You can’t **force **someone to become Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc., all you can do is help.

Couldn’t have said it better!

 

[JonNC]

He took the quiz and came out Catholic.

Yeah, so did I.

Originally Posted by qui est ce
I had you in mind as well. I don’t participate in other religious forums, and I’m always curious when I see well-informed non-Catholics such as you and Contarini actively participating on the religious threads here. You, Contarini, Pastor Gary and a few others know a lot more about what the Church really teaches than many Catholics and non Catholics. It’s always a pleasure to read your posts.

I should have added that both Contarini and Pastor Gary are far more knowledgeable than I am in these matters.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

I think Pastor Gary has said re-ordination would probably be a deal breaker for him.

Your comments are very kind, Christine. But if I ever decided to swim, I would give thanks to God for Lutheranism, for it is there I got my swimming lessons.

Re-ordination would be a serious obstacle for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I believe that my ordination as a Lutheran is valid. To undergo a re-ordination would be like saying that I have been living a lie and I don’t believe that I have been. Second, I am aware that Lutheran pastors who have made the swim have had to undergo several years of formation before being ordained in the Catholic Church. At the age of 66, I’m not at all certain I’m ready for that. (I wasn’t ordained until I was 62 – I’m a true second-career pastor.)

I, too, appreciate Christine’s comments. Back when I was discerning my call to the ministry, I spent a lot of time reading books on Catholicism. It was during that time that I became convinced that if I could not be Lutheran my only other option would be to be Catholic. And, during my seminary education, I took a good portion of my course work in Catholic schools. I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic Church but the current in the Tiber seems too strong for me.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[spockrates]

I make no confusion about faith here; There is no faith to build on this new (faith) way yet; until Simons name is changed to Peter ( Simons faith is the sign from heaven for Jesus to begin building his Church). God had revealed Jesus to Simon and chose him from heaven, Jesus acts from this sign from heaven by changing Simon to Peter.

Peter never makes a profession of faith for Jesus to build his church upon. Simon makes the profession of faith, but Jesus changes Simon to Peter." The faith" you introduced here from Simons faith in Jesus begins it’s course upon Peter, of whom Jesus is building his Church, never Simon bar Jona’s faith does Jesus begin building his Church, only when Jesus changes Simons name to Peter is when Jesus begins to build his church.

Mt. 16:17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. **For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. **
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Please read what Jesus states from John 5:34 “** I do not accept testimony from a human being, **but I say this so that you may be saved”.

Jesus does not need mans faith to build his church. The Word of God takes dust and water and breathes life into it and so it lives. Jesus the Word of God now speaks to Simon and changes him into Peter to be with him until the end of the world.

Luke 19:38
They proclaimed: “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord. 7 Peace in heaven and glory in the highest.”
39
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” 8
40
He said in reply, **“I tell you, if they keep silent, the stones will cry out!” **

I don’t disagree with your description of faith between what is professed and what is believed in; From Mt.16 faith initiates, God does the action of changing Simon to Peter. God is not building his church upon “faith only”, God is building his church upon the new person of Peter never Simons faith which initiated the change to Peter. God’s will be done, should Simon had kept silent, the rocks would of cried out. God could of chose rocks had they cried out to build his church upon, but instead Simon professed who Jesus was, and Jesus changed Simon into a Rock which Jesus confessed to build his Church.

Peace be with you

I’m not sure I understand, but I am sure that understanding what you say is a necessary prerequisite to agreeing with what you say! From what I see, there are three possible meanings of the word rock. When Christ says,

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church…”

the rock might be Peter, and so His meaning might have been this:

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on [you] I will build my church…”

Then again, the rock might be the truth Simon professed just a moment before Jesus spoke:

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Therefore, Jesus might have meant this:

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this [profession that I am the Christ] I will build my church…”

It’s also possible, though it seems to me less likely, that the rock to which Jesus referred is Himself, in which case His meaning would be:

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on [me] I will build my church…”

But, let me ask you this: Do you know that the early Church Fathers taught all three views? Do you also know that the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that all three definitions of the rock are true?

 

[JonNC]

Re-ordination would be a serious obstacle for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I believe that my ordination as a Lutheran is valid. To undergo a re-ordination would be like saying that I have been living a lie and I don’t believe that I have been. Second, I am aware that Lutheran pastors who have made the swim have had to undergo several years of formation before being ordained in the Catholic Church. At the age of 66, I’m not at all certain I’m ready for that. (I wasn’t ordained until I was 62 – I’m a true second-career pastor.)

I, too, appreciate Christine’s comments. Back when I was discerning my call to the ministry, I spent a lot of time reading books on Catholicism. It was during that time that I became convinced that if I could not be Lutheran my only other option would be to be Catholic. And, during my seminary education, I took a good portion of my course work in Catholic schools. I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic Church but the current in the Tiber seems too strong for me.

Just a few thoughts.

That’s what I thought you had said some time back, Pator. I’m happy I didn’t misrepresent.

BTW, were I to swim, I could never deny the validity of the orders of my dad and people such as you, nor could I deny that I have over my life received the real and substantial presence of Christ in the Lutheran Eucharist.

Jon
Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

Re-ordination would be a serious obstacle for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I believe that my ordination as a Lutheran is valid. To undergo a re-ordination would be like saying that I have been living a lie and I don’t believe that I have been. Second, I am aware that Lutheran pastors who have made the swim have had to undergo several years of formation before being ordained in the Catholic Church. At the age of 66, I’m not at all certain I’m ready for that. (I wasn’t ordained until I was 62 – I’m a true second-career pastor.)

Just a few thoughts.

I was wondering when you would join in. These threads with Lutherans are most charitable and uplifting.

I realize this isn’t “Ask the Lutheran” thread, but isn’t your view of ordination different than the Catholic view? I thought Lutherans didn’t believe their pastors possessed special gifts. As Catholics, we believe only priests have the power to perform certain sacraments: Transubstantiation, Absolution, Ordination.

Maybe there are just too many Lutheran denominations and I’m getting confused, but I did thinks it was and LCMS who told me this.

 

[spockrates]

No but I have got plenty of warnings for “Proselytizing” and having a “anti-Catholic,
Pro-Pagan Agenda.” Particularly after posting a series of articles showing that Pagans are not just teenagers incapable of holding a respectable job and following a fad.

Mind you this only increased my own Pagan faith. I mean if they can only build a straw man of Paganism (see the This Rock article on Pagan Apologetics) and must censor anyone that really rips the straw man apart, well how can they possibly affect Pagans off this forum where moderators won’t be around to control the debate?

I see. Well, I can’t blame you for being partisan. I mean, if you know without a doubt you’re right, why be insincere? There’s a kind of security in certainty, I suppose. But the thing about partisanism–whether it be partisan politics or partisan religion–is it gets under another partisan’s skin when she does not agree with you. It creates heated debate more than calming dialog. Before you know it, the discussion forum becomes engulfed in flames and any sprouts of truth burn up in smoke or are trampled on by those running for cover!

But ask many questions, and give few answers, and those little sprouts blossom into flourishing vines with nourishing berries. People start to gather around and feed on the sweet fruit. Some stay and rest awhile under the cool shade of thought provoking conversation. Streams of living water flow from all, and each fully quenches her thirst. Like Socrates sitting with his friend Phaedrus, with their feed bathed in a cool stream, and their heads shaded by an ancient tree. In the peaceful place outside the noisy walls of the City of Athens, there is great joy in their meeting of minds and the truth they together find.

 

[spockrates]

Off topic.
This is not necessarily the case. There were many Catholic theologians from St. Jerome to Cardinal Cajetan who did not believe they were equal to the canon. Clearly they had other reasons, not because they thought they conflicted with the other 66.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Jon

 

[spockrates]

… On topic, I would just like to say that I am surprised and impressed by the comments left by our non-Catholic brothers and sisters. They have been very charitable and supportive of a person who is on their spiritual journey with the exception of a few valed jabs. In every case Pray and trust in the Holy Spirit, the same advice I would give if someone was trying to find where they belonged. Kudos to all.

Agreed! (Pagans included, of course!)

 

[gcnuss]

I was wondering when you would join in. These threads with Lutherans are most charitable and uplifting.

I realize this isn’t “Ask the Lutheran” thread, but isn’t your view of ordination different than the Catholic view? I thought Lutherans didn’t believe their pastors possessed special gifts. As Catholics, we believe only priests have the power to perform certain sacraments: Transubstantiation, Absolution, Ordination.

In the Lutheran tradition, only those who are ordained are to preside at the Eucharist, to proclaim absolution, and to ordain.

With regard to presiding at the Eucharist, I am aware of cases where a Bishop authorizes a non-ordained person to preside, acting for the Bishop. I don’t really think there is a sound theological basis for doing so, but it is done in some places.

With regard to absolution, only an ordained person is authorized to proclaim, following confession, that “as a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins.”

As to ordination, there is disagreement about whether it must be done by a bishop or if it can be done by an ordained pastor. The latter position is popular in the more congregational elements of Lutheranism. For myself, I would not have dreamed of being ordained other than by my bishop.

That’s a brief answer.

 

[spockrates]

I am not very interested in talking people out of becoming Catholic, but perhaps you should make sure you have given serious attention to the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy first.

On the other hand, if you are a Western Christian, then the Catholic Church is in a sense the more “natural” place to return to.

I would also caution against assuming that Catholicism has “all the answers” and that everything will be clear and simple. Catholic apologetics often do not do justice to the complexity and uncertainty present within Catholicism.

Edwin

Eastern Orthodox? Doesn’t one have to be Greek to be one?



Complexities and uncertainties: Will you name one or two?

 

[spockrates]

That’s a very serious reason to think carefully. (I share it.)

Another consideration is whether you are presently involved in a Christian community. Such ties should not be lightly broken.

Edwin

I’m currently a Christian Community orphan. Not hard to be in these United States. I was speaking of my wife.

 

[JonNC]

I’m currently a Christian Community orphan. Not hard to be in these United States. I was speaking of my wife.

If you are currently outside a faith communion, I would encourage you to find one. I believe it is a strain on one’s faith not to receive on a regular basis word and sacrament.
This doesn’t solve the issue with your wife, I know. May the Spirit lead the both of you where He wants you to be.

Jon

 

[spockrates]

If you are currently outside a faith communion, I would encourage you to find one. I believe it is a strain on one’s faith not to receive on a regular basis word and sacrament.
This doesn’t solve the issue with your wife, I know. May the Spirit lead the both of you where He wants you to be.

Jon

Thanks Jon.