Can't bear another Hurd / Haas / etc hymn

[twf]

OCP is not the only vendor of Catholic music.
We use OCP for Responsorial psalms becuase we like them chanted and not rearranged
We use GIA for hymnals
We use WLP for missalettes and pieces that are out of print elsewhere.

Your parish uses what they have or what they have subscriptions to.
The Music Director follows the advice of the Pastor. I know. I’ve been one for nearly 30 years. There are different types of music depending on the population at various Masses.
Masses where everyone is elderly get different hymns.
Masses with young children get other choices.
Quiet, very poorly attended weekday Masses get more reflective music.

Honestly, I am really sick of people trying to tell others how to do their job.
Most Choir Directors are VOLUNTEERS that can play an instrument or carry a tune. They certainly don’t make a living wage.Which means…they use whatever is in the music closet.
Get over it.

You want better music?
Petition the Parish Finance committee to hire a professionally trained, degreed person in Music and Liturgy. My parish did that, so here I am. Happy.
Last Sunday during announcements, I asked who wanted to join the choir???
Crickets.

People talk a big line, but when push comes to shove…it’s like WHO ME???

Gimme a break. There are GREAT Catholic composers. People just believe the church is a democracy and they get a vote on everything from the liturgical appointments in a parish to the hymns that are played, to the style of the vestments.
They don’t.
Andi n fact…in the “good old days” you wouldn’t even be permitted to complain about it! If Father didn’t show you the door, his secretary would. We’ve come a long way. We have to listen to every liturgy expert off the street and smile and say, “oh thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut!”

I pick the hymns, and the parish is VERY happy. Execution is everything. Hire a great musician, and see if the hymns and the singers don’t sound better and better.

:harp:

In many cases your comments are very valid… on the other hand… my Protestant mother is a professional trained musician. She once took my Protestant but “interested in Catholicism” brother to Mass. She told me the lay cantor was so bad that she had to stop and apologize a few times for going off key or missing lines. I happen to know that the local priest has a lovely voice. If he had simply plain chanted his bits and led a couple hymns a Capella it would have been much better… but no one wants to offend… and lay participation is supreme.

 

[pianistclare]

In many cases your comments are very valid… on the other hand… my Protestant mother is a professional trained musician. She once took my Protestant but “interested in Catholicism” brother to Mass. She told me the lay cantor was so bad that she had to stop and apologize a few times for going off key or missing lines. I happen to know that the local priest has a lovely voice. If he had simply plain chanted his bits and led a couple hymns a Capella it would have been much better… but no one wants to offend… and lay participation is supreme.

Well priests decide every single day:
Do I do as I prefer…or do I hurt people and have people leave the Church? Because I’ve got to tell you: people leave the Church for the flimsy-est of reasons. The priest looked over at my screaming baby…HOW DARE HE??? I’m never going back to the Catholic Church! I’m going to the mega church where they a cutely decorated nursery!!!

The bottom line is, we don’t know why the priest keeps the bad cantor. I could very well be because no else will come forward. I’ve had some lousy singers in my choir. They either get to stand on the back row, or they get to turn pages for me (which they consider a big deal…like she trusts me! and I read music so well!)

This is only one area where the priests employ diplomacy. Some with the well meaning person who wants to buy a statue of St. Whomever their favorite Saint is for the narthex or the sanctuary.
Ditto the man who says he’ll paint the whole facility and either never finishes or makes a mess of it and it costs the parish more in the long run to repair the damage done.

Things like this happen every day. Priests make a judgment. It’s part of the reason why I’m glad I only have my choir loft to worry about. It’s tough. .And people always want to think the worst of the priest and each other.

You know how some crucifixes have Jesus looking out so forlornly? Yeah. That.
We disappoint Him all the time. I try to show a bit of kindness to the tone deaf. Often, once they come for a month or two, they realize they’re in over their head and they quietly disappear back into the pews. But they’ve made some new friends, and they know we feel fondly towards them. Perfection is really nice, but it has to be tempered with compassion.

God bless you. :tiphat:

 

[otjm]

I’m going to get pelted with last year’s Missals for saying this, but to those of us who are well-trained in music and music appreciation, most contemporary Catholic music is to liturgy as McMansions are to architecture.

A deeper, richer worship must go beyond three-chorded strumming and first-person lyrics, (the emphasis on “me, me” me" and “I, I, I” gets old).

And I get tired of people who make comments, but fail to show what they think it should be, rather than simply being dismissive - what? I am never entirely sure.

As to the “me, me” me" and “I, I, I” bit, I look down at the bottom of the hymn, and I am amazed how often the words have been taken from Scripture. Perhaps you have been singing from an edition of OCP of which I am not aware?

On a slightly related note, as someone who grew up Anglican, I don’t think I’ll ever get past how Catholics sing during the Eucharist. We received the Eucharist in silent, contemplative reverence, in the spirit of Psalm 46:10 - “Be still and know that I am God.” Only after the Eucharist went back to the tabernacle could we pull out the hymnals. My point is in sharing this anecdote is that it’s really difficult for me to focus and reflect on the Eucharist with kitschy music in the background.

Well, perhaps that explains a lot; I think it was a Catholic who said “He who sings, prays twice.” Which is not to say that there are no cradle Catholics who insist that the time immediately after receiving is to be private time.

 

[OraLabora]

And I get tired of people who make comments, but fail to show what they think it should be, rather than simply being dismissive - what? I am never entirely sure.

As to the “me, me” me" and “I, I, I” bit, I look down at the bottom of the hymn, and I am amazed how often the words have been taken from Scripture. Perhaps you have been singing from an edition of OCP of which I am not aware?

Well, perhaps that explains a lot; I think it was a Catholic who said “He who sings, prays twice.” Which is not to say that there are no cradle Catholics who insist that the time immediately after receiving is to be private time.

There was thread with a rant a while back about a hymn that said “Come, see and taste the Lord” and how insipid those words were and inappropriate as a communion hymn. Some of us had fun pointing out that it was in fact a verse from psalm 33(34)! And that the traditional Gregorian propers communion antiphons include “Gustate et videte”, same verse, same psalm

 

[Joe_5859]

OCP is not the only vendor of Catholic music.
We use OCP for Responsorial psalms becuase we like them chanted and not rearranged
We use GIA for hymnals
We use WLP for missalettes and pieces that are out of print elsewhere.

That’s a good point. I tend to think of OCP as the only game in town, but that’s not really the case. I just saw that Ignatius Press has the “Adoremus Hymnal,” too. I don’t know if that’s new or if I just never was aware of it before.

 

[pianistclare]

That’s a good point. I tend to think of OCP as the only game in town, but that’s not really the case. I just saw that Ignatius Press has the “Adoremus Hymnal,” too. I don’t know if that’s new or if I just never was aware of it before.

Yeah, they’ve been around fro some time.
One thing that people fail to consider… (not you friend, LOL )

…is that there are parishes that have used contemporary music for a long long time. And then a new pastor wants to come in and do only chant, or bring in the Adoremus hymnals and so everyone is STILL up in arms!
I remember being very sad that the people in my previous parish had no idea how to sing or pronounce the Penge Lingua or the Tantum Ergo for Holy Thursday. NO one had any idea what the Reproaches were for Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday. The children at the adjacent Catholic school never heard of Immaculate Mary.

Is it their fault?
My old parish with all its elderly parishioners didn’t want to give up the bad radio music because they had finally learned it.

A mix is what is needed. There are times for lively, roof raising joy, and there are times for the time honored gems of the Church. It’s not an either/or/. It’s a both-and or else we do a disservice to the members.

That’s why I like and prefer the GIA Hymnals which are regularly updated, but RETAIN the hymns that every Catholic should know WELL. Things that were not so great, get deleted the next time around.
It’s less about who is in our professional stable and more about what do people and parishes need.

 

[2cherubs]

And I get tired of people who make comments, but fail to show what they think it should be, rather than simply being dismissive - what? I am never entirely sure.

I actually did express what it should be by linking to the Wesleyan criteria. You may feel free to disagree, and that’s worthy as its own discussion.

What criteria, standards, or definitions do you have for good liturgical music? Or does anything go?

My point in that last link is that everyone has some idea of what music is ideal for Mass. It’s probably time for Catholics to have a productive conversation about this.

As to the “me, me” me" and “I, I, I” bit, I look down at the bottom of the hymn, and I am amazed how often the words have been taken from Scripture. Perhaps you have been singing from an edition of OCP of which I am not aware?

I’m referring to self-centeredness and individualism. I’d argue that there’s a huge emphasis on that among American Christians of many stripes.

Well, perhaps that explains a lot; I think it was a Catholic who said “He who sings, prays twice.” Which is not to say that there are no cradle Catholics who insist that the time immediately after receiving is to be private time.

Quiet* time, not private. Obviously Mass isn’t private. But depending on the priest, it is often interspersed with moments of silent reverence. Ideally, the Eucharist would be one of them.

I’m sorry to have hit a nerve.

 

[pianistclare]

Keep in mind that everything that is marketed in the US for use in Catholic Liturgy has to be approved and signed off on by a Bishop. The Bishop in which the publishing/recording house resides. Scripture passages have to be referenced, no doctrinal errors.

I’m NOT talking about the stuff on the radio. The problem arises when some well meaning people think “Oh, that;'s pretty, it would be cool for Adoration, or good for the offertory hymn…” and it was never intended for liturgical use.

If you look closely at any hymnal you can see in the various indices and fine print, the provenance of various hymn tunes, Scripture passages, and themes.

 

[pnewton]

I actually did express what it should be by linking to the Wesleyan criteria. You may feel free to disagree, and that’s worthy as its own discussion.

What criteria, standards, or definitions do you have for good liturgical music?

This is easily answered for me, as I believe the Church has answered it. Good liturgical music is that music that is good for the liturgy. What is good for the liturgy has been specifically given to the bishop of each diocese for determination. A bishop could assign hymns, but pretty much all understand that good liturgical music is not the same thing in every parish and allow the priests to make these decision. In other words, what is good liturgical music is that which is chosen through the principle of subsidiarity.

I say this partly because of my experience here. Namely, the number of good, solid opinions across the world demonstrate why it is so hard to find music that is appropriate to everyone. It must be sufficient for the priest, the bishop, or just the musician assigned the task to find good liturgical music for those in his parish, not for posters that will never darken the doors of that church.

I’m referring to self-centeredness and individualism. I’d argue that there’s a huge emphasis on that among American Christians of many stripes.

While I agree that it is a problem, as self-centeredness and individualism is a problem with all humanity, I would also argue that this is not reflected in music. The very idea the use of personal pronouns is an issue is antithetical to the ancient cry of the desert prayer, “Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me,” as well, as any Catholic can tell you, contradicted by the words, “I confess…”, “I believe”, and “Lord, I am not worthy.”

 

[pnewton]

I’m NOT talking about the stuff on the radio. The problem arises when some well meaning people think “Oh, that;'s pretty, it would be cool for Adoration, or good for the offertory hymn…” and it was never intended for liturgical use.

That brings up a good point. I do not think this is all bad. Surely a lot of the stuff, maybe most, is simply unsingable for a group. But I am not all that set against what is called casually, “Praise and worship.” I never did see why praise and worship were seen as a bad thing in liturgy. Mass at the Catholic school uses some of these songs. They seem quite appropriate.

 

[Joe_5859]

That brings up a good point. I do not think this is all bad. Surely a lot of the stuff, maybe most, is simply unsingable for a group. But I am not all that set against what is called casually, “Praise and worship.” I never did see why praise and worship were seen as a bad thing in liturgy. Mass at the Catholic school uses some of these songs. They seem quite appropriate.

I definitely wouldn’t say “praise and worship” songs are my favorite type of music, but the one thing I’ve always thought they have going for them is that they tend to be directed towards God rather than just being about God (or about us). I think that can work well in the liturgy.

But I wouldn’t advocate just taking songs from the radio and inserting them into liturgical settings of one’s own volition.

 

[pnewton]

But I wouldn’t advocate just taking songs from the radio and inserting them into liturgical settings of one’s own volition.

I do not do this, as I want the music in front of people (hymnal or missalette). However, the idea of one’s own volition might depend on whether the one doing it has the authority to do this. I played once at the school Mass. One of the songs was of this genre (Here I am to Worship). I have seldom heard a better song for an entrance, both in the words and style. Another one I really liked they do, Blessed Be Your Name," doesn’t fit well in liturgy (too syncopated, irregular), though a beautiful song.

 

[wynd]

I actually did express what it should be by linking to the Wesleyan criteria. You may feel free to disagree, and that’s worthy as its own discussion.

What criteria, standards, or definitions do you have for good liturgical music? Or does anything go?

You might enjoy this essay. It’s by a Lutheran pastor but I don’t see why it couldn’t apply to any church.

 

[pianistclare]

That brings up a good point. I do not think this is all bad. Surely a lot of the stuff, maybe most, is simply unsingable for a group. But I am not all that set against what is called casually, “Praise and worship.” I never did see why praise and worship were seen as a bad thing in liturgy. Mass at the Catholic school uses some of these songs. They seem quite appropriate.

It depends on the lyrics of course.

NOn-Catholic theology has no place in the liturgy. But you know that. It’s an issue of lyrics.

 

[2cherubs]

You might enjoy this essay. It’s by a Lutheran pastor but I don’t see why it couldn’t apply to any church.

Thank you! This thread has gotten me interested (obsessed? ) with this issue. It’s fascinating to read up on it, and your link is another useful resource in this quest.

If anyone else is interested, I liked this piece, too. crisismagazine.com/2009/the-hidden-hand-behind-bad-catholic-music

 

[MissRose73]

I like some of the praise and worship music that our church has sung but not all of it. We even have a praise & worship band that plays a few Masses a month. They are very talented musicians but as I mentioned I like some selections but that genre is not a favorite of mine.

Yes, I grew up in the era of the Glory & Praise Hymnals, and admit yes I do like some of those hymns. I do also like many of the traditional hymns I get a chance to hear sung at TLMs, and wish more would make their way back to the Ordinary Form as they are so well written in terms of music & lyrics. In my parish, we don’t get too many of the traditional hymns, perhaps a few holy days we may have 1 or 2 at most.

I also like hearing Gregorian Chant at TLMs but I do not have the patience and time to learn to sing in that format. The scolas and choirs of the churches that I’ve attended for TLMs and heard them, they sing and chant beautifully.

 

[27lw]

LOL – what does Vatican II have to say about Catholic liturgical music?
Oh yeah - - Gregorian chant and the organ should have pride of place. Somehow the Catholics lost their way in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, but at least some are finding their way back.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

LOL – what does Vatican II have to say about Catholic liturgical music?
Oh yeah - - Gregorian chant and the organ should have pride of place. Somehow the Catholics lost their way in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, but at least some are finding their way back.

No, actually. Not at all. And that trope is a very tired one indeed.

The Council Fathers said:

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority

1. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.

Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.

A thing can hold “pride of place” or be held “in high esteem” without, in fact, being used regularly – such as one’s fine historical china, heirloom silver service or most expensive table linens.

 

[OraLabora]

No, actually. Not at all. And that trope is a very tired one indeed.

The Council Fathers said:

A thing can hold “pride of place” or be held “in high esteem” without, in fact, being used regularly – such as one’s fine historical china, heirloom silver service or most expensive table linens.

Exactly, and Gregorian chant is alive and well around the world, in daily active use in monasteries, among other places. As many here know I chant in a schola that uses it for the Ordinary Form liturgy. On Thursday I will be attending the Gregorian Institute of Canada’s annual 3 day colloquium, hosted this year at the Benedictine abbey of St-Benoit-du-Lac abbey in Quebec, where Gregorian chant is a daily part of the Ordinary Form Mass and Divine Office.

If people here want more Gregorian chant, I encourage them to start or join a schola, or support one, as we all operate on shoestring budgets. Much more productive than complaining about it.

 

[27lw]

A thing can hold “pride of place” or be held “in high esteem” without, in fact, being used regularly – such as one’s fine historical china, heirloom silver service or most expensive table linens.

Hmm. That’s an interesting thought. The council fathers wrote that chant and the organ should have pride of place, and you think that that means we should put them away in a cupboard, and not use them? They’re not like china or crystal, they won’t get broken if you use them.