Can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't feel right

[Tantum_ergo]

St. Louis de Montford (a personal favorite) would have had a lot to say about “Scrupulous Devotees” here: you know, 'Of course I honor the Blessed Virgin but you know those simple uneducated peasants with their endless “Hail Marys” give people the wrong idea. Let’s hear more about JESUS. They should be focusing on JESUS. ’

He was pretty scathing about it. The idea that Mary and Jesus are in competition, or that any honor given to Mary somehow ‘took away’ honor from Jesus, is this ‘scrupulous’ devotion. What it does (and many who do it do so in all good faith) is to plant unnecessary doubts, foster division, and in fact distort the entire relationship of Mary and Jesus. Mary always leads us to her Son.

The ‘concern’ for people being led astray actually is less that than it is an attempt to force a certain ‘perspective’ onto others. Most ‘scrupulous devotees’, according to St. Louis, are ‘educated’, ‘upper class’, pride themselves on reason, moderation, etc.–and unwittingly are more often lukewarm or Pharisitical! For while they may try to suppress Marian devotion (for the sake of Jesus or so they say), quite often they themselves have little if any devotion to Jesus Himself. Often their Jesus is the “historical” Jesus, or the “liberal” Jesus, or the “countercultural” Jesus–IOW, they pick the one aspect of Christ that they like, and focus on that alone. In so far as Marian devotion keeps people (in their minds) from focusing on “social justice Jesus”, they perceive Marian devotion as a personal threat to “their” Jesus, and so fight against it.

Whereas those who see Jesus in His fullness of humanity and divinity have no problem according to His saints dulia, and to His Mother hyperdulia, while reserving latria for God. . .not some ‘aspect’ of Jesus, not selfishly insisting that everything be focused on one ‘aspect’ while ignoring all else. The ‘non scrupulous’ devotee doesn’t think that there is a finite amount of love or attention in each person, and that if “Mary” is loved by Miss X as the Blessed Virgin, that this is 'stealing away love from GOD!"

 

[rr1213]

Who is St. Louis de Montford?

 

[havemercy]

The author of Marian devotional writings (namely True Devotion to Mary, and The Secret of Mary) and founder of a religious order.

 

[jmcrae]

The Davidic King? Sounds like the DaVinci Code… I have never heard of this title so it’s a new one to me but Jesus is the KING of ALL kings. He may have been born of David’s line but He transends ALL time meaning that He exists in and out of this title.

Why do you think the Apostles made such a big deal out of the fact that Jesus was the (adopted) Son of David?

 

[LilyM]

Why do you think the Apostles made such a big deal out of the fact that Jesus was the (adopted) Son of David?

The prophesied Messiah was going to reinstitute a kingdom a la Kings David and Solomon of old - so it’s interesting to see the parallels between the role we place Mary in and the old Jewish Queen Mothers.

And it is indeed noteworthy the one time someone follows Jesus shouting ‘son of David have pity on me’ and asking for healing. Not to mention the constant references during both his ministry and his trial to his kingly status, although earthly and heavenly kingdom are somewhat different things.

 

[Veritas41]

Our church Deacon went on a trip with a group from the parish to Fatima. He came back with a large statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary that was supposedly blessed by a bishop over there. The statue is now being given to families to bring home for a week to pray the rosary around it.

I can’t seem to put my finger on it, but something about this doesn’t feel right.

Comments? Discussion?

What doesn’t seem right? A few years ago we had an image of the Blessed Mother (there was something special about it or it was part of some nation-wide mission or something) that was traveling around different parishes in the U.S. to stay for a few days at a time (it was set up in our adoration chapel) and then went on to another one. Mary did say at Fatima to pray the rosary, so people are fulfilling that request, and I would think praying before a statue of the Blessed Mother would help keep their minds focused

 

[Revelation13_16]

Honor thy father and thy mother.

You’re arguing that God (Jesus) in heaven (eternity) has to listen to a being (Mary) he created, purely because she played the role of mother to him for the brief period (33 years) he was on earth. (temporary)

Why would he NOT listen to his mother,

Jesus never acknowledged Mary as his mother.

Jesus never once called Mary “mother”, he always refered to her as “woman”.

if she had important information to tell him from us,

God (Jesus) is omniscient.

When you lie on your bed and think bad thoughts, guess what? God hears them.

To say that Mary in heaven has information from us to pass on to Jesus that he didn’t know about calls God’s omniscience into question.

Love,
Rev

 

[LilyM]

You’re arguing that God (Jesus) in heaven (eternity) has to listen to a being (Mary) he created, purely because she played the role of mother to him for the brief period (33 years) he was on earth. (temporary)

Jesus never acknowledged Mary as his mother.

Jesus never once called Mary “mother”, he always refered to her as “woman”.

God (Jesus) is omniscient.

When you lie on your bed and think bad thoughts, guess what? God hears them.

To say that Mary in heaven has information from us to pass on to Jesus that he didn’t know about calls God’s omniscience into question.

Love,
Rev

Well doesn’t the very fact that Jesus himself repeatedly asks us to pray call God’s omniscience into question just as much? After all, does God not understand our thoughts, needs and desires without us making them explicit in the form of prayer?

Of course he does, but then we don’t pray because he NEEDS to hear our prayers, we pray because he likes to hear them. As a parent enjoys hearing its child babbling even though it says nothing he or she isn’t already aware of. Does he also like us to pray for each other? Of course, again just like any parent likes to see his children helping each other out when they can.

So it is with Mary, our spiritual Mother and sister. Remember she also passes messages FROM Jesus to us in addition to adding her prayers to those we make to him. And believe you me, we need all the supernatural help we can get both getting messages to him and listening to those that come from him. We’re not exactly brilliant at it are we …

 

[LilyM]

You’re arguing that God (Jesus) in heaven (eternity) has to listen to a being (Mary) he created, purely because she played the role of mother to him for the brief period (33 years) he was on earth. (temporary)

If I live to be 100 and my own mother lives to be 130, she will still be my mother for the remainder of my natural life. And I will love her for every second of that time.

And if by some breakthrough of science we both lived till I was 2000 years old and she was 2030 years old, that wouldn’t change a bit. I would love her for every moment of those 2000 years. And not just during those 2000 years, but beyond as well, since I firmly believe we will still be ourselves with all our human affections even in the afterlife.

Remember Jesus ascended in physical body as well as soul to heaven. It was the same wounded physical body, that could digest real fish, that he had on the cross. The body and the soul are not unrelated, even in Jesus’ case. If they were then he wouldn’t be the unique and eternal bridge between God and man that he is.

Nor even in his glorified body would he, I believe, lose respect for the woman who gave him that very body which ascended into heaven.

Jesus never acknowledged Mary as his mother.

Jesus never once called Mary “mother”, he always refered to her as “woman”.

In the biblical languages the word translated as ‘woman’ was actually a term of great respect, not at all dismissive of her.

Not to mention giving her to John as his mother from the Cross - as if he would do that for anyone he didn’t care for or respect.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

To say that Mary in heaven has information from us to pass on to Jesus that he didn’t know about calls God’s omniscience into question.

Pardon me, but nobody is saying that at all; your interpretation is at fault.

God knows everything. That we ask Mary to pray for us and with us takes nothing away from Jesus; we know He already knows. Mary is our ally, not our Savior. Since we know that “where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in the midst of them”, why would we not enlist Mary in our prayers? She is part of the kingdom–the saints are in fact though dead to earth ALIVE in Christ (Scripture says so)!

And as for your downplaying of Mary’s role, if that is the honor you give her (all she was being in your eyes some ‘creature’ that spawned a Christ of whom she merely passed a physical body to, was ‘never’ addressed as mother (not proven), and apparently shouldn’t even be considered as good!), it is no wonder that Christ’s message is so little heard and understood by so many today. People aren’t even getting His very first interaction with humanity–that is, His relationship to and with His Mother–right!! They are not ‘calling her blessed’ as Scripture commands, but calling her sinful, scorned, and worthy of not even recognition as mother!!! That is shameful to me as a Christian.

 

[Revelation13_16]

If I live to be 100 and my own mother lives to be 130, she will still be my mother for the remainder of my natural life. And I will love her for every second of that time.

And if by some breakthrough of science we both lived till I was 2000 years old and she was 2030 years old, that wouldn’t change a bit. I would love her for every moment of those 2000 years. And not just during those 2000 years, but beyond as well, since I firmly believe we will still be ourselves with all our human affections even in the afterlife.

I don’t see how this is applicable.

You are a being that has a beginning - that being is your mother - and children are brainwashed to love their mothers unless their mothers do something to ‘deprogram them’ from loving them like molesting them or trying to kill them.

Children love their parents by default, Christ was both God and Man, thus he overrides any normal human programming, because he had no beginning, he transcends any beginning, for him Mary was simply a chosen entrance for a mission to complete.

In the biblical languages the word translated as ‘woman’ was actually a term of great respect, not at all dismissive of her.

Mother would have been nicer.

Any woman can be called woman, but only a mother can be called mother.

Not to mention giving her to John as his mother from the Cross - as if he would do that for anyone he didn’t care for or respect.

Sure, I can acknowledge that he wanted John to take care of her after he was gone but I’m still not convinced that care factor would make God almighty take that earthly situation back to heaven forever.

Love,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Well doesn’t the very fact that Jesus himself repeatedly asks us to pray call God’s omniscience into question just as much? After all, does God not understand our thoughts, needs and desires without us making them explicit in the form of prayer?

No.

Prayer is humbling, the proud don’t pray.

Of course he does, but then we don’t pray because he NEEDS to hear our prayers, we pray because he likes to hear them. As a parent enjoys hearing its child babbling even though it says nothing he or she isn’t already aware of. Does he also like us to pray for each other? Of course, again just like any parent likes to see his children helping each other out when they can.

I believe praying for one another is linked to the 2nd commandment given by Jesus “love your neighbour like you love yourself”.

I don’t deny that God might like to hear our prayers, but prayer I think is something that benefits us more than him.

He is self-sufficient, we are not.

His nature doesn’t need to change, ours does.

Prayer does this.

So it is with Mary, our spiritual Mother and sister. Remember she also passes messages FROM Jesus to us in addition to adding her prayers to those we make to him. And believe you me, we need all the supernatural help we can get both getting messages to him and listening to those that come from him. We’re not exactly brilliant at it are we …

How does she pass messages from Jesus to us?

Love,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Pardon me, but nobody is saying that at all; your interpretation is at fault.

God knows everything. That we ask Mary to pray for us and with us takes nothing away from Jesus; we know He already knows. Mary is our ally, not our Savior. Since we know that “where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in the midst of them”, why would we not enlist Mary in our prayers? She is part of the kingdom–the saints are in fact though dead to earth ALIVE in Christ (Scripture says so)!

Perhaps your interpretation is at fault.

The scripture you quoted is oft used by Protestants to claim that Christ’s church isn’t a physical institution but a spiritual one.

I don’t see why we need a heavenly ally when Jesus in heaven knows the innermost desires and needs of our hearts.

And as for your downplaying of Mary’s role, if that is the honor you give her (all she was being in your eyes some ‘creature’

Creature noun [kree-cher]

1. Anything created, whether animate or inanimate.
2. One dependent on or subservient to another.
3. A person whose position or fortune is owed to someone or something and who continues under the control or influence of that person or thing: The cardinal was a creature of Louis XI.

that spawned a Christ of whom she merely passed a physical body to, was ‘never’ addressed as mother (not proven),

Is proven, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John.

and apparently shouldn’t even be considered as good!),

I never said that.

Nice deduction.

it is no wonder that Christ’s message is so little heard and understood by so many today. People aren’t even getting His very first interaction with humanity–that is, His relationship to and with His Mother–right!! They are not ‘calling her blessed’ as Scripture commands,

I call her the blessed Virgin Mary.

but calling her sinful, scorned,

I never, ever said this.

Please don’t put words into my mouth.

and worthy of not even recognition as mother!!!

I did not say this either.

My point was not whether we should call Mary mother, but whether Jesus did.

He didn’t … ever.

Ergo, how do you know Jesus will listen to Mary in heaven?

Love,
Rev

 

[LilyM]

No.

Prayer is humbling, the proud don’t pray.

There are very few people who are too proud to pray when they REALLY need to.

I believe praying for one another is linked to the 2nd commandment given by Jesus “love your neighbour like you love yourself”.

I don’t deny that God might like to hear our prayers, but prayer I think is something that benefits us more than him.

He is self-sufficient, we are not.

His nature doesn’t need to change, ours does.

Prayer does this.

And Mary loves her neighbour too - and every man and woman is her neighbour. Just as they are ours. The difference being that we don’t believe that she has ever ceased loving us, nor that Jesus ever ceased loving her. How could he ever ‘unlove’ someone once he had begun? He NEVER ceases loving his creatures, although he permits us to walk away from his love. Mary never did walk away from him - not even when he was dying on the cross.

How does she pass messages from Jesus to us?

That would be where apparitions such as Fatima come in for us. Her apparitions almost always pass messages to those to whom she appears, and to anyone who listens to them.

At Fatima, for example, she called for greater prayer for the conversion of sinners and the salvation of sinful souls - on the request of God and Jesus. A simple request, one would imagine, but one that, sadly, no age have has really sufficiently heeded.

 

[Revelation13_16]

There are very few people who are too proud to pray when they REALLY need to.

That’s different.

Everyone prays when they are in trouble, but then they forget to do it when all is rosy again.

God sees through this prayer, the prayers of people who treat God like a 7-11, open all the time, but only neccessary when they need him and never otherwise.

And Mary loves her neighbour too - and every man and woman is her neighbour. Just as they are ours.

No it’s different.

Mary is heaven, only those with a changed nature can enter heaven.

Our natures are sinful and need to be changed.

If your neighbour is an alcoholic and lives a horrid life it’s very easy to harden one’s heart against that neighbour and the troubles they cause to your life, even when they have threatened your life and you’ve done nothing wrong.

But, if you pray for that neighbour, your heart softens a little, prayer reminds you that there is one above you that commands that you not fight and devise your own methods for dealing with problems, but that you love and take your problems to him in prayer.

Prayer is to us what talk therapy is to psychiatrists, it’s a means by which the patient helps to heal themselves, but thinks the doctor actually is doing something. (well he is, listening, and this puts the patient at ease)

The difference being that we don’t believe that she has ever ceased loving us, nor that Jesus ever ceased loving her. How could he ever ‘unlove’ someone once he had begun?

All love is not similar.

The love you feel for God is different to that of your mother.

The love for your mother, different to that of your sister.

The love for your sister, different to that of your husband.

The love for your husband, different to that of your child.

etc.

He NEVER ceases loving his creatures, although he permits us to walk away from his love. Mary never did walk away from him - not even when he was dying on the cross.

That is to be expected, it is the programming.

That would be where apparitions such as Fatima come in for us. Her apparitions almost always pass messages to those to whom she appears, and to anyone who listens to them.

At Fatima, for example, she called for greater prayer for the conversion of sinners and the salvation of sinful souls - on the request of God and Jesus. A simple request, one would imagine, but one that, sadly, no age have has really sufficiently heeded.

Question: Why though does Mary need to appear twice when the Pope from the chair, under the Holy Spirit can relay messages from God?

Love,
Rev

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are a being that has a beginning - that being is your mother - and children are brainwashed to love their mothers unless their mothers do something to ‘deprogram them’ from loving them like molesting them or trying to kill them.

Brainwashing? Deprogramming? Excuse me, where is that in the Bible?

It seems to me that your ‘interpretation’ that human children are ‘brainwashed to love their mothers’ is simply that–an interpretation. It is certainly not Biblical. Search the Scriptures and you will find many references to the tender care of a mother–God himself is spoken of as showing that care to us! which hardly sounds like ‘brainwashing’.

I believe that most people would see a great contempt for parent-child love in your statement above re brainwashing. I hope it was unconscious on your part!

Don’t you see how utterly contrary your ideas are to Godly ones, and how you are ‘reaching’ to unnatural distortions in order to justify your (hopefully unconsious and unrealized) contempt of Mary and your denigration of her?

As a mother myself, and a daughter, I highly resent and reject your interpretation that I was ‘brainwashed’ to love my parents or ‘brainwashed’ my own children into loving me. Children are a gift from the Lord, not objects to use and abuse.

 

[jmcrae]

Children love their parents by default, Christ was both God and Man, thus he overrides any normal human programming, because he had no beginning, he transcends any beginning, for him Mary was simply a chosen entrance for a mission to complete.

This shows a complete misunderstanding of motherhood. Mothers do not create their children. God creates them. Mothers give birth to them. Mary gave birth to Jesus in exactly the same way that your mother gave birth to you. The fact that you were created at a certain moment inside your mother’s body, and that Jesus is uncreated, is totally unrelated, since Jesus came from God, and so do all children. Mary did not create Jesus, sure - but no mother has ever created her child. God creates all of us - not our mothers.

Any woman can be called woman …]

Not true. In the entire Bible, only two women are called Woman - Eve, and Mary. The rest of us are women (that is, modelled after Eve), and can be called “a woman,” but only those two receive the actual title, Woman. It was not an insult-word; He was giving her the same title that Eve had, before she sinned.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Brainwashing? Deprogramming? Excuse me, where is that in the Bible?

It’s science.

I believe that most people would see a great contempt for parent-child love in your statement above re brainwashing. I hope it was unconscious on your part!

I believe most people think with their emotions rather than with their minds.

Don’t you see how utterly contrary your ideas are to Godly ones, and how you are ‘reaching’ to unnatural distortions in order to justify your (hopefully unconsious and unrealized) contempt of Mary and your denigration of her?

It’s science.

As a mother myself, and a daughter, I highly resent and reject your interpretation that I was ‘brainwashed’ to love my parents or ‘brainwashed’ my own children into loving me. Children are a gift from the Lord, not objects to use and abuse.

C’mon give me a break.

Do you know why most lonely women say they want a baby?

Because a baby has to love you unconditionally because it depends upon you for life.

It works similarly with children, the maternal instinct to love something you created is very strong.

It’s the ‘default’ programming.

Love,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Not true. In the entire Bible, only two women are called Woman - Eve, and Mary. The rest of us are women (that is, modelled after Eve), and can be called “a woman,” but only those two receive the actual title, Woman.

Not true.

Luke 13:10-13

And he (Jesus) was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up [herself].

And when Jesus saw her, he called [her to him], and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

And he laid [his] hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

Luke 22:56-57

But a certain maid beheld him (Peter) as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.

And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.

John 4:21 (Jesus speaks with the Samaritan adultress)

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 8:10 (Jesus convinces Pharisees not to stone adultress)

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

John 20:13-15 (Jesus speaks to Mary Magdelene)

And they (Angels) say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

It was not an insult-word; He was giving her the same title that Eve had, before she sinned.

Not true, it was a general expression for any woman.

Love,
Rev

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Not true, it was a general expression for any woman.

Not for one’s own mother, it wasn’t.
Such a use is unattested anywhere in scripture for
one’s own mother.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)