Can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't feel right

[Mintaka]

Why wouldn’t God listen to the saints?

If He didn’t want us around, He wouldn’t have died for us, given us eternal life, yada yada. If He wants us around and wants us to be His family, He listens to us. Either God is our Father and Brother by His kind adoption, or we’re just critters.

So how does conversing with His family take away God’s sovereignty?

Beyond that, a king is no king if he’s a nithling – if he’s ungenerous, doesn’t care for his followers, doesn’t listen to them and grant their petitions.

My God is no nithling. My God is the God who didn’t need anybody or anything, but chose to create the universe and create humans to share it, so that He could spread His love and giving ever wider. He is the God who came to earth and became one of us. The Father may dwell in unapproachable light, but that doesn’t make Him aloof! He doesn’t want to be. His whole plan is designed to indicate that He wants to be with us always.

Do you think He would stop being a people Person to His people when they finally are with Him in every way? Do you think that Jesus Christ, who wasn’t ashamed to stop and listen to children when He was busy on Earth, would stop listening now that He has all Eternity?

If there’s any danger of putting a slur on God’s sovereignty, I’d say it’s picturing Him as a petty dictator so insecure in His divine judgment and omniscience that He refuses to listen to His own Body.

If we don’t believe in the Communion of Saints/the Mystical Body of Christ, then we’re saying we don’t believe that Christ saves us and gives us eternal life. If we don’t believe God listens to the prayers of the righteous in Heaven, we certainly shouldn’t expect God to listen to our imperfect prayers. If we do believe these things, then we shouldn’t have a problem when other people pray accordingly.

 

[Sandi]

As others have pointed out, the problem is not the presence of the statue, rather it was the presence of a particular statue. The idea that arrival of the statue in the home is somehow special is, I think slipping into dangerous territory

Boy, I sure wish people who think Catholics “worship” statues could read this. I’m not Catholic and even I know you don’t.

 

[hosemonkey]

I have no problem with “pray for us” or “pray for me”. What else do Catholics ask of Mary?

It’s a Catholic thing, you wouldn’t understand. We have had the Pilgrim Virgin devotion in our parish for many years. My family has had her in our home many times and even though we have family devotions every day, she is still a special, honored guest in our home. Our prayers are directed to Jesus through His Blessed Mother every day, but we feel especially focused when her statue comes into our home. The members of the Legion of Mary, who bring her, also bring the special prayers and devotions that always accompany her. We love it.

 

[Zooey]

As others have pointed out, the problem is not the presence of the statue, rather it was the presence of a particular statue. The idea that arrival of the statue in the home is somehow special is, I think slipping into dangerous territory

Boy, I sure wish people who think Catholics “worship” statues could read this. I’m not Catholic and even I know you don’t.

And so do I!! Maybe, though, Op has encountered some folks who do believe this?? I know that I have some family members who would have a fit, if their Catholic neighbors had a statue (including one of Jesus!) go from house to house…
But, you can’t run your life according to what a few people might think.

I have to say, when I began reading this thread, I though t it was going to be about a statue from someplace like Garabandal where I know there has been disapproved “visions”. That would, frankly, make me very uncomfortable. Because I don’t know what is going on there.
But Fatima is approved, I beleieve. So I can’t see a problem with it…and me a Methodist!! (Albeit, a friendly one!!)

 

[Pax]

Zooey,

I know some other very friendly Methodists. My local parish has a close relationship with our local Methodist, Lutheran, and Episcopal Churches. We sometimes have Ecumenical services together especially on Good Friday.

While I know some very friendly Methodists, you may be the most friendly to us as a long time and welcomed participant on this forum.

God Bless!

 

[Pax]

In my attempt to understand Catholicism, I ask the following question out of respect.

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

I’m trying to get my head around this, so please help me. (and be nice)

I understand that Mary was Jesus’ mother on Earth, but in heaven, the place where Jesus exsisted before creation and from which He created all things, would he really now hearken to the pleadings of his earthly mother?

I’m struggling with this concept, I don’t see why an omniscient God in his own domain (heaven) would listen to his subjects, it kind of robs God of his sovreignty by putting saints & Mary on the same level as him.

I dunno, maybe you guys can bring me round, please convince me.

Thanks,
Rev

Jesus took the time while on earth to converse with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. If Jesus spoke with saints at that time it seems unlikely that he would cease speaking to them or his mother when they are together in heaven. Likewise, the angels rejoice when one sinner repents[Luke 15:10]. We will also be like angels in heaven[Matt 22:30]. Moreover, Jesus specifically says, “And I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son of man also will acknowledge before the angels of God;”[Luke 12:8].

In the book of Revelation John reports on all kinds of conversation that is going on in heaven.

Peter tells us that we are “partakers of the divine nature.” No one knows what God has planned for us in heaven but it will be beyond all human conception. We are in God’s image and likeness and we are made for a relationship with God. That relationship is to be an eternal one. The relationship that Jesus has with his mother in heaven is greater and more glorious than the relationship they shared on earth.

I hope this helps.

 

[rr1213]

It’s a Catholic thing, you wouldn’t understand.

Try me.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Sir Knight,

I think I can put a finger on what it is that’s bothering you.

Perhaps it is a veneration that is out of proportion to the “proximity” value of the statue.

Perhaps if the statue was actually touched to something essential to Fatima (a saint maybe), it wouldn’t seem so over-the-top. But this was simply blessed by a Bishop from the area.

I’m all for venerating relics, and placing religious artifacts in their proper place. But we must recognize that there *is *a hierarchy.

I just don’t know if I would get all juiced up about praying over a statue that was blessed by Bishop Nobody Special. Praying over a statue blessed by him would be no big deal. But to send the statue from house to house is rediculous. You’d have to demonstrate that Bishop Nobody Special is more special than my local bishop.

Concerning relics, and religious artifacts - it’s not the what that makes them special, it’s the who. And it’s the proximity of that who to the BIG WHO that counts.

If ol’ Black Jaque said a blessing over a statue of Mary would that make it any more special than any other statue of Mary on the store shelves? Of course not! Then you ought not to treat any statue that I bless with any greater reverence than one with the price tag still on it.

P.S. I’ve found the perfect response to anyone who criticizes my use of icons in my home. I tell them it’s a statue that was touched by Elvis!!!

 

[jmcrae]

Jaques;

The majority of these Pilgrim Virgin Fatima statues are purchased locally and blessed by the parish priest, though.

I happen to like this custom, myself - I think it presents an excellent opportunity for friendship evangelism.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
Considering the wild stuff that happens in the P’Church, “Hail Holy Queen” sounds rather “tame”, don’tcha think?

If it is right it is right, if it is wrong it is wrong. Whether we are talking about the Episcopal Church or the Catholic Church or any other faith community.

Uh,… yeah.

I love being agreeable…!!

 

[Keikiolu]

In my attempt to understand Catholicism, I ask the following question out of respect.

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

…{snip}

Thanks,
Rev

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Why would he NOT listen to his mother, if she had important information to tell him from us, if she could communicate with Jesus, and if He could hear her?

(( Listen to LilyM ))

 

[hosemonkey]

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Why would he NOT listen to his mother, if she had important information to tell him from us, if she could communicate with Jesus, and if He could hear her?

(( Listen to LilyM ))

And besides, would you want to be the nice Jewish boy who DIDN"T listen to his mama?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Originally Posted by #69 Revelation13_16
In my attempt to understand Catholicism, I ask the following question out of respect.

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

The same way Protestant ministers know God will listen to their congregations when they ask those congregations to pray for someone who is sick on in need.

 

[Black_Jaque]

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

Wedding at Cana.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

It bothered me that special significance was placed upon the particular statue representing the Blessed Virgin. It is Mary as the mother of Jesus that is important. Her relationship with Jesus is what makes her such a powerful intercessor on our behalf. The statue/representation is merely a reminder to bring attention to Mary and to point us to her son.

I think the special thing about the Fatima statue is that Sister Lucia (who actually saw the Blessed Virgin) directed the artist as to her features etc.

I also think that it can be helpful to comtemplate the expression of the statue, what is the artist trying to say? I have a statue of Mary holding Jesus as a baby and when I look at it she looks weary, like she’s been up all night taking care of Jesus. It was a comfort to me when my girls were like that, but I never really thought of Mary’s daily life and Jesus as a baby in that way. It brought a new perspective to the incarnation that I wouldn’t have seen without it.

Art, really good art is meant to inspire us.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
Honor thy father and thy mother.

Why would he NOT listen to his mother, if she had important information to tell him from us, if she could communicate with Jesus, and if He could hear her?

(( Listen to LilyM ))

And besides, would you want to be the nice Jewish boy who DIDN"T listen to his mama?

Oy…!!

Not a good thing, that would be…!

 

[Moneo]

Our church Deacon went on a trip with a group from the parish to Fatima. He came back with a large statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary that was supposedly blessed by a bishop over there. The statue is now being given to families to bring home for a week to pray the rosary around it.

I can’t seem to put my finger on it, but something about this doesn’t feel right.

Comments? Discussion?

With so many Fatima devotees around these forums, I’m surprised no one has put up this link yet:

pilgrimvirginstatue.com/

Unless, of course, I just missed it in one of the posts.

These parish “Pilgrim Virgin” devotions are based on the original Pilgrim Virgin of Fatima devotion which was suggested by the Bishop of Fatima and approved by Sister Lucía as a means of bringing the message of Our Lady of Fatima to the world. There are actually two official images which travel the world. Various popes have also given their blessing to this devotion.

I think it’s a beautiful devotion which can help to draw people closer to God by contemplating on the message of Fatima (penance and prayer for the conversion of sinners) and the mysteries of our salvation in the Rosary.

The bottom line is, if it’s not your cup of tea just don’t participate. But thee’s no need to look askance at folks who do find such devotions edifying.

 

[Singinbeauty]

But you make the appointment to see him with the woman at the front desk. If she doesn’t put your name on the calendar, you don’t get to see him at all. She’s also the one who tells you what the customs of the office are, and how best to approach him, to get the results that you want.

But you make the appointment to see him with the woman at the front desk. If she doesn’t put your name on the calendar, you don’t get to see him at all. She’s also the one who tells you what the customs of the office are, and how best to approach him, to get the results that you want.

Tell me you didn’t write this with a straight face… so by this logic if you don’t start with Mary then you will not even be considered when trying to approach God yourself??? I think Jesus Himself told us how to approach God the Father just fine with the Lord’s Prayer. I don’t remember anyone in all the stories that I have heard going to Mary before approaching Jesus. Did the woman not get healed from touching Jesus’ robe because she didn’t first go through Mary? No, she went STRAIGHT to the source and was healed by her faith. They lowered the cripple into to crowded room but did he have to check in with Mary first? Your logic is somewhat ascew…

Jesus is the Davidic King. In the Davidic Kingdom, the King’s mother is the person who organizes the appointments, and decides whose case is urgent enough for a personal appointment, and who can wait, or who can solve their problem in a different way.

Mary, being the Mother of the King, intercedes for us with Jesus. She helps us to pray more perfectly, and she also prays on our behalf.

The Davidic King? Sounds like the DaVinci Code… I have never heard of this title so it’s a new one to me but Jesus is the KING of ALL kings. He may have been born of David’s line but He transends ALL time meaning that He exists in and out of this title.

 

[havemercy]

This is a wonderful practice. A friend in Florida was involved in that week-long devotional. He said it was one of the best weeks of his life.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Anyway, on to the OP…

I do apologize I got distracted with that post… I can see where your uneasy feeling is coming from and I think it is justified. This is what, I think, that protestants fear when it comes to statues and images. Our human brains often take a ‘mind’ of their own (if you will) and sometimes when you have weak faithed christians it can be hard to separate using a statue as something to help you focus rather than it becoming something you put into a position you shouldn’t. Hence the story of the bronze serpant that had to be destroyed because it was taken for something it was ever meant to be. For me (that’s FOR ME for those who didn’t read it the first time) trying to pray to someone other than God is taking focus away from God. Why go through someone else when I can go straight to Him thanks to Jesus??? It doesn’t make sense. And when I ask others to pray for me it’s more for my comfort than me thinking it’s going to make a difference to God. If God is going to grant me my request He will do it upon MY request not how many people are behind it. There is a reason why we have a word for pray and one for ask. We pray to ask and TELL God things in our life. Not every prayer is a request which is why when you say that a minister prays to his congregation it doesn’t sit right with me. Praying is getting in on a one on one conversation with God. The mediating that only Jesus could do was to bridge the gap that had grown so wide between us and God.

Sorry for rambling but I had a few thoughts after reading this thread… Thank you for ‘listening’!